Kyron Horman Missing: New Years Eve Settlement Ends Horman Marriage
Portland, OR- In a surprise court hearing, Judge Henry Kantor signed off on the agreement between Kaine Horman and Terri Moulton Horman to end their marriage this afternoon.
Details of the agreement have not been released publicly, but according to KGW, a financial settlement to include child support and a lump payment to Terri Horman has been reached.
In what can only be described as a bitter family court feud- the divorce matter was last in court on December 16th to decide if the Horman landscaper, Rodolfo Sanchez Estrada -who alleges Terri Horman tried to hire him to murder Kaine Horman at a lunch meeting – would testify.
Judge Kantor has not yet filed an order from that hearing but Attorneys for Terri Horman were granted a continuance from the pending temporary custody motion scheduled for December 19th and 20th.
BOC Associate Editor Tarin Kenley contributed to this report.
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It woulld appear Gosson was on the Child Abuse Team as late as ’06.
http://www.advocate.com/news/2006/08/17/antigay-christian-leader-admits-molesting-young-girls
page 5, as of 2014 this reads as Gosson is a sgt in the exec division.
http://multnomah.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=3&clip_id=848&meta_id=55963
I think I found an obit on his Mom. She was a nurse and person extraordinaire. His sister is an author. That’s why I am thinking he is a good guy. Could be wrong, of course.
@TRuth, Bumping you again, as I think you were right on the money.
T. Ruth says:
July 28, 2013 at 2:26 pm
Thanks Rose, I was just wondering if that had anything to do with Gosson’s departure from the case.
**********
I just remembered this comment from one of the forums that had some SI residents on it and now I wonder if this was Gosson she was referring to:
Author: amarareign [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:04 pm ]
Post subject: Re: Kyron Horman
They are stating on the briefing that they have not found Kyron.
A good friend on the sherriffs department has just been told he is taken off the case. I feel like they have ALL the evidence. I also feel like it will come out by the end of the weekend.
http://missingpersons.phpbb3now.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46&start=80&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=765b64aef5fd3adab3ad061b9267688d&view=print
June 18, 2010, this was what? a week or so prior to the sting operation. If this was Lee Gosson she’s referring to, makes me wonder if perhaps Detective Gosson didn’t agree with that strategy and thus Bobby O’Donnell took over.
I wish LE or someone would start actually talking about wth is going on with this case.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2012/11/27/kyron-horman-missing-civil-suit-against-terri-horman-delayed-and-sealed/comment-page-80/
good catch erose. and since O’Donnell had been on it for 5 years in 2010, they were pardners on the ADA Charlene’s CAT (last name escapes me, mbs knows). Imo Frink may’ve been the Face, but Charlene directed the ground troops, and Moawad was her supervisee. keystone kops. kaine is too smart to defer to this group. why did/does he? A simple google would show Kyron’s fulltime 2010 DA assignee was misassigned, inexperienced, and had litigation blips.
@”erose says:
August 14, 2015 at 2:11 am
Re-read part 1 of the Spicher interview, and it is clear that the steroids were creating problems in the Horman house due to KH’s personality change, and that the detective TH trusted with the information and to keep her complaint anonymous could not be trusted.”
—–
Thin Blue Line
Recently I called police to report house vandalism.
Unfortunately as the County officer arrived, the County
officer on local Town contract patrol (extra overtime hiree) arrived & said I’ll handle it.
I thought that was great. personal care from my Town contracts.
Until he said, hypothetically when someone reports on one of our own,
some cases have less attention. And he did not document a police report.
(2 years before I had reported to our inept town mgr the contract car
patrolman had slept all nite, motor noisily running, thinking his vehicle was hidden by 2 sheds,
outside my window; it so happened I observed it all nite. Apparently a report of on duty dereliction
I asked to be anonymous got around the Station & came back to bite. No one should EVER think any report on a policeman will be anonymous. So I conclude Terri’s steroid report snagged some policeman(men)
and retribution has been exacted.
iirc (not looking back)
in June 2010 Gosson was on
the investigating lead–the E Cty Major
Crimes team and was a Gresham detective.
I too thought him a white hat.
OT @Blink. let an old lady tell you what hell is.
train 11 hours to summer school pickup.
on disembarking, segue to drive kid’s new 150,000 mi car
to college, in rain, 12 hrs.
Moving in after 3 hrs sleep, one learns the 5 student 3 bedroom apt is a 3 story walk up.
The door opens. And then learns, the 3 bedrooms are further upstairs a narrow winding
loft staircase.
——
Great npr special sunday on choices on enrolling in & paying for college & student debt.
An Oregonian called in about the new law, community college is now free if 2.5 gpa.
Checking that out, it applies only to those graduating from HS within 6 months, leaving out a James.
We ourselves made every mistake npr outlined.
One thing we didn’t eval is our colleges claim no dorms except for freshmen. imo apt
life is too expensive even shared and unsupervised for most kids. But this seems to be the new
college normal.
@erose, truth: “but….Gosson did not attend:
Good afternoon, I am Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office Captain Monte
Reiser. Joining me today is Chief Deputy Tim Moore, Kyron’s Mother,
Desiree Young, Father Kaine Horman and Stepfather Tony Young”
reminds me of the press conf when the bios booted the 2 lead most competent press.
Imo if Gossom was booted from the investigation and the press conf, I lay it at the feet
of no one other than Kaine, Desiree, and Tony.
And certainly if they objected to hus removal as Lead, it woukdn’t have happened. One or more of these 3 had bonded with Bobby imo. Imo we have underestimated these 3′s impact on the investigation leadership early on.
So maybe she reports the steroids and the RS assault falls on deaf ears. Wish we could get all the Horman 911 info. This case will always be active so no FOIA’s can get satisfied.
Rose says:
August 18, 2015 at 9:04 pm
Blink and Rose, I know. I know. I know. TG, for my sake and psyche we have a great U close to home and it’s cheaper, as cheaper goes.
XO
B
Qualifying here: I have zero idea why L. Gosson was removed from lead detective. Futher, I have no idea why it was never discussed in any of the media, other than the weird little blurb on WW. But, for me, it’s just one more question that the public (i.e., taxpayers that pay these folks’ salaries) may have (I know I do) and why hasn’t it been discussed or mentioned? IDK, but sure would like to.
Why is there at least not an accounting (available publicly) in regard to the expenses paid for the KH missing case? Why would that ever have to be under-wraps? Makes zero sense to me.
Truth’s “blog find” has him off the case around June 18. If true. he was only on the case less that 3 weeks. My post shows him active MCSO exec as of 2014. Why would he be taken off of the case and replaced with O’Donnell? I mean, O’Donnell? He could have bonded with TY as a LEO, or KH as co-misogynists, or was attracted to DY, all ploys would have endeared him to the trio, if he had an axe to grind with TH prior. Someone at MCSO let TH down and potentially placed her at risk with her husband prior to Kyron’s disappearance.
Rose says:
August 18, 2015 at 9:56 pm
@Rose, You are right to lay it at the feet of the bio/trio. I think they called the shots, too.
A good CAT Detective woukd’ve been raking over all 4 parents even 3 weeks down the road, polys or not.
So imo if 3 of them told Frink they’d cooperate if the intrusive Lead changed, likely Charlene/Moawad would
just shove another CAT detective (O’Donnell) into the slot.
Imo bios called for Gosson out, but responsively DA Office put O’Donnell in.
@”erose says: August 18, 2015 at 10:15 pm
So maybe she reports the steroids
and the RS assault falls on deaf ears.”
Sounds like it, with the Sting as icing on cake.
maybe one reason DA didn’t rush to charge Terri is
one aspect of her defense could be police snared & outed
as a result of that steroid report. Maybe the checks & syringes
that are crown jewels to Houze are not so much to impeach or
implicate Kaine, but to impeach or implicate some
LE snared in her steroid tip that resulted in LE arrests
and maybe exacted retribution on her son and/or herself.
August 4, 2010 still officially naming Gosson as lead. KH states the family asks LE for permission to release information.
snip>
Fitting Portland’s more self-effacing style, the Kyron investigation has no publicly recognized spokesperson. Multnomah County Sheriff Dan Staton’s shop is nominally in charge of the investigation, but the painfully shy sheriff rarely takes the microphone, preferring to delegate speaking duties to a rotating cadre of command staff. *****The lead investigator, Sheriff’s Sgt. Lee Gosson, has never even spoken publicly on the case. *****Despite its low-key style and the fact it’s a relatively small agency, insiders say any suspicion that MCSO could mishandle the case is groundless—it has help from other members of the East County Major Crimes Team, which includes some of the most seasoned detectives in the region. The Multnomah County District Attorney’s Office is also involved in steering the investigation; the person in that office who puts in the most hours on the case is Chief Deputy District Attorney Norm Frink, who likewise has made no public appearances.
Behind the scenes, it’s clear law enforcement has settled on a highly unusual strategy of relying on the family itself to release public information and bring pressure on those accused of being less than cooperative with investigators. First it was Terri who was singled out by Kaine and Desiree in news conferences, then DeDe Spicher and other friends. Kaine says investigators have never asked him outright to release any specific information, but when the family feels that doing so might help solve the case, they ask permission. Although they haven’t consulted lawyers of their own, they don’t fear any legal repercussions. “We haven’t done anything that’s exposed ourselves,” Desiree says. “We’ve been very safe about it.”
http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12305-the_kyron_files.html
Since that press conf may be related to removal of Lee as Lead, & new assignment of O’D, and since it might have been encouraged by 1 or all of the trio, the transcript of that press conf is worth a second look.
If the trio actually influenced the assigned Lead at a Press Conf time, that would’ve embidened them for the grand & public gesture of booting WW & O reporters out of their later press conf.
It is my understanding that TH contacts for the most part, and leading up to the time she retained counsel was with O’Donnell and a female FBI agent, and occasional male FBI agent.
B
@.CD I agree about the searches looking for proof Against TH Throwing stuff away doesn’t make sense to me
But it gives them something to do As long as no one who is donating is unhappy I guess DY needs to do what she feels will lead to Kyron There have been cases that after many searches something has been found
And there is the chance of things being planted
Dy is going search No matter what IMO
Same with blaming T and D They are not going stop no matter what IMO
As of May ’11, Krafve was name lead on Kyron’s case and now he is on the MCSO cold case unit.
snip>
There are 68 binders filled with 4,500 leads that investigators like Sgt. Keith Krafve, the lead detective, have spent 11 months following and piecing together. Krafve says they still receive tips, including one from the state of Maine on the day a reporter was allowed into the epicenter of the investigation.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/121985859.html
Sergeant Keith Krafve
The Cold Case Unit is supervised by Sgt. Keith Krafve. He is also responsible for the day-to-day operation of the Detective Unit comprised of 10 investigators and one Technician. Sgt. Krafve was hired by MCSO in 1987 and has worked in Corrections, Patrol, School Resource Officer, and Detectives. Since being promoted in 2009 Sgt. Krafve has worked in Patrol, Internal Affairs, and Detectives.
http://www.mcso.us/profiles/
Even though they say Kyron’s case is not cold:
snip>
A “cold case” is any homicide or suspicious death more than two years that has been closed or otherwise suspended because of lack of investigative leads or follow-up information. Cold Case investigators pair up to review open cases. Cold Case investigators pair up to review open cases. The review involves going through old police reports and interviews from the original investigation, making records checks on key individuals in the cases and making contact with individuals as necessary, checking on the evidence and determining if submitting old evidence to the State Crime Lab for re-examination using new technology.
*****Evidence from the ten highest priority cases has had evidence re-submitted to the State Crime Lab.*******
In addition to investigative work by the Cold Case investigators, MCSO detectives, the State Crime Lab and the District Attorney’s Office, the public can play a key role in resolving an unsolved case. Many of the MCSO cases are 20 to 25 years old and during that time span people familiar with the death may have changed, matured and may no longer be afraid of talking to investigators. There may be a new or long-held desire to “go straight” or clear their conscience.
same link as above (top 10, wth? what are the top ten cold cases for MCSO?)
Kyron Horman Foundation:
2010 irs 990 had Kaine as Pres, Kristi as Secr, and Bruce H as Treasurer.
hiwever on p10, Matt R is listed as Treasurer and J Swaine as Board member
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2010/273/291/2010-273291828-07ee6200-Z.pdf
google excerpt blurbs reflect Swaine’s sharedextracurricular interests with Kaine,
and activity inRocklin – the home base of Moore & Mikkelsons:
Loomis Kettlebell Strength and Conditioning – Loomis, CA – Sports …
Facebook › … › Sports & Recreation
Rating: 5 – 14 votes
Mobile-friendly – Loomis, California …. Jeff SwainMissing the k’bells however we walked over 5 miles per day the last 3! see ya in a …
—–
Tracklogic Motorsports – Rocklin, California – Automotive Parts …
Facebook › TracklogicMotorsports › Tra…
Rating: 4.9 – 72 votes
Mobile-friendly – 4445 Granite Dr Suite 504. Rocklin …. Cyndia A Owens, Jeff Swain, Paulette Bouressa-Merri and 3 others like this.
Jeff Swain – Address, Phone, Public Records – Radaris
https://m.radaris.com › Jeff › Swain
Mobile-friendly – Known as: Jeff Swain, John Swain, Johnny J Swain. Related … Has lived in: Granite Bay, CAFremont, CAGoshen, IN .
—–
VP of Board
http://www.calautomuseum.org/about-us/staff/board-of-directors/
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeffery-s-swain/0/4b8/5a7?trk=seokp-title_posts_secondary_cluster_res_author_name
——————–
I saw a Matt R in Snohomish who’s a PI and criminal defense lawyer.
Which led to looking up Kristian’s lawyer in Snohomish. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_hormans_paternal_uncle_s.html
“Donna Johnston, the family’s longtime lawyer.”
She limits her practice to criminal defense. And does not appear respected or effective.
So why is a crim def lawyer the “longtime” Horman lawyer?
—–
Lee G, an mcso deputy, must’ve been jointly assigned with O’D from June 4 tho he was the initial lead
based on overtime rank:
https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1469879603225936&id=1428477140699516
2010 MCSO report, p 21 puts several detectives on the E Cty Major Crimes team.
Among these were Gosson & T Gullberg.
p 23 has O’D as the sole 2010 mcso member of CAT
http://www.mcso.us/profiles/pdf/services_report_2010.pdf
Only one mcso detective was on the CAT at a time.
So it appears O’D took over from Gosson in 2006.
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeffry-hansen/23/a10/a63
The tales he could — and may — tell.
” East County Major Crimes Team Coordinator with extensive experience in Major Crimes Investigations, (primarily homicides).”
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/larry-foulke/11/934/217
Detective (Major Crimes Team) – 6 1/2 years – Current member
look at Bernie Guisto for Sheriff endorsements, including Shrunk’s.
a Dem Party darling.
https://multco.us/elections/may-21-2002-multnomah-county-sheriff
in 2013, TRuth also found Gresham’s Don Sahota on that Team.
Sahota
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/don-sahota/9/497/2b1
based on Guisto’s union endorsements which were not for the 2 best educated & most experienced Sheriff candidates, it looks like the Union & its associates control most public offices &elected officials in the County, including mcso, the Sheriff, & DA. No wonder Herron got himself made President.
If O’Donnell was detailed to Terri, who was detailed to
be the handler for Kaine as primary? to Tony? to Desiree?
He was at least in as much communication with Kaine for sure- outside of that I don’t know.
B
Shocking Staton, Moore & Gates would assign a deputy with his marital & behabioral hustory, formally investigated & publically documented, to the Hormans.
Just occurred to me that news conference, which had been previously scheduled for July 27, and supposed to be an update (with Gosson, who was a no-show),and updated NOTHING, was the day after Dateline had aired “Little Boy Lost”, July 26. (Some one correct me if I’m wrong on that.) This makes me wonder if something that was said by someone in those Dateline interviews (most likely unseen by LE until the night of July 26, right?) brought about some sort of different direction to the case. IDK, just trying to make sense of things. You can look back at the clips of the presser and in one instance a reporter is so ticked he says “why was this press conference even called? All it was is history and an increased reward”. And that’s all it was, yet initially, it was called by MCSO to be an update.
Dateline may just be a coincidence, but what else happened between July 23 (when conference was scheduled) and July 27, when the non-presser took place?
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/38386295
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/dateline_nbc_highlights_puts_s.html
For Young, “strike two” came when investigators told him cell phone records belied Moulton Horman’s timeline of where she was the day Kyron disappeared.
(snipped from the O link above ^)
**************
Wait a minute, “investigators” told Tony Young Terri’s cell phone records were off from where she said she was that day? I thought that information came from Terri herself, venting? Is this article from Max wrong, or did Tony Young say that investigators informed him?
Correction, it was Micheal Russell who wrote that story for the O, not Maxine.
@erose says:
August 19, 2015 at 4:51 am
As of May ’11, Krafve was name lead on Kyron’s case and now he is on the MCSO cold case unit.
—————————–
By the end of 2012, Union Prez Herron was the ‘lead investigator’ on Kyron’s case, and Cold Case Krafve was his ‘supervisor’. (Krafve was already head of cold case back then)
O/T
I’m sure you guys have heard this news, but just in case:
Aug 19, 1:45 PM EDT
Fogle to plead guilty to sex acts with minors, child porn
By RICK CALLAHAN
Associated Press
AP Photo
AP Photo/Michael Conroy
Buy AP Photo Reprints
INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Longtime Subway pitchman Jared Fogle agreed Wednesday to plead guilty to allegations that he paid for sex acts with minors and received child pornography in a case that destroyed his career at the sandwich-shop chain and could send him to prison for more than a decade.
(snipped, more@link)
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SUBWAY_SPOKESMAN_RAID?SITE=AZTUS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
What the hell is wrong with men these days? Married with kids no less. I just don’t get it.
OT (sort of)
I came across this in one of my feeds. It’s a story about heroic teacher, but the real story is that a child was abducted from a school.
http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/local_news/kindergarten-teacher-honored-for-thwarting-abduction/article_a50f3080-d7b9-5fc0-b391-6fab8929daf4.html
Except it was discovered it was the non-custodial parent. I wonder how many more abductions/ attempts are committed by non-custodial family, and why we don’t hear more about them.
http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/local_news/abduction-thwarted/article_2f771024-4382-11e5-9437-f36373665577.html
*snip*
“This was an excellent example of the value of the partnership between Lowndes County Schools and the Lowndes County Sheriff’s Office which places a school resource officer in every school,” said Sheriff Chris Prine. “The quick actions of both the teacher and the school resource officer are no doubt what led to the quick recovery of this child. This is great work by everyone involved.”
Why didn’t Skyline School staff care enough about Kyron to protect him when he was allowed by staff to leave a classroom with an unknown person? If only…
Exactly. Talk about the contaminated well.
cd says:
August 18, 2015 at 4:33 pm
Yeah.
Rose says:
August 19, 2015 at 12:09 am
Since we are going back over things – I was recently struck by this quote from Staton. It’s the only time I remember seeing anyone mention “faculty”. I can hear the collective gasps from PPS even now.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_search_may_have_s.html
By Noelle Crombie | The Oregonian/OregonLive
on June 12, 2010 at 9:02 PM, updated July 15, 2010 at 2:46 PM
Sometime between 7 and 7:45 p.m., Staton personally called the FBI. He said the circumstances — Kyron disappeared from school on a busy morning — prompted him to ask for help from the feds.
“I wanted them involved because the last time this child was seen was inside a school,” he said. “This was not a child walking away from their home or getting lost in the woods. This is a child who got lost inside a school with faculty there. That was the last time the child was seen.”
The bureau pulled in agents from across the country. Two who would help with the technical aspect arrived that night. Another set of agents with expertise in missing-child cases landed at midnight. More joined Saturday morning.
By then, Kyron had been gone for 24 hours.
just a point.
Tony is now Union Pres in Medford.
I could not have less respect for the Kavfre, O”Donnell, Herron, Moore et al crowd.
Why is this investigation not subject to postPitkin press scrutiny?
Are remaining journalists just Dem Party / Unions whores (to characterize their work impolitely).
@TKG, And this investigation continues to be closely held and the people involved seem to flourish in their careers.
Got a darn post hanging for which a correction/clarification is showing. (Darn I hate when that happens! Oh, well.) This one:
T. Ruth says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
August 19, 2015 at 12:35 pm
@Blink: Do you sometimes read backwards like I often do magazines? LOL
@thatkewlgirl says:
August 19, 2015 at 2:54 pm
I’m just wondering, do you think Kyron was taken where the motive was a custodial situation/motive?
@MockingbirdSings says:
August 19, 2015 at 6:06 pm
Since we are going back over things – I was recently struck by this quote from Staton. It’s the only time I remember seeing anyone mention “faculty”. I can hear the collective gasps from PPS even now.
(snippety du dah)
***************
MbS, can you elaborate on what your feelings are in this regard? I would love to hear your take.
Ya know, someday someone, somewhere, is going to dig up what really went down, not only that day, but in the investigation following it. Can’t come any sooner IMO. Release the horses…..or the horses asses as the case may be. I just want answers to how a little 7 year old boy disappeared from his school. That’s all.
@T. Ruth says:
August 19, 2015 at 10:06 pm
@thatkewlgirl says:
August 19, 2015 at 2:54 pm
I’m just wondering, do you think Kyron was taken where the motive was a custodial situation/motive?
————————————-
T.Ruth, I think it’s possible. I can’t take it off the table. I know that Intel alibis are not as concrete as some want to think. I know that EACH of the parents had the ability to have a secondary helper to implement a snatching. I do not think DY is privy to it, unless her hate game is a deflection away from her own involvement. (I just don’t think she is that good of an actress, and that is real hatred seething from her when she looks into the lens of a camera.) I know that KH has the means and motive to ‘disappear’ Kyron, and at the time, he may not have realized it would be such BIG news (other cases are not), and he may even have had steroid using LE to aid him. If it was parental custody, I lean more towards KH shipping him off to a ‘safe’ location. Another country, another state, who knows? I certainly don’t. As far as motive, the bios both have motive to ‘hoard’ their child – and KH’s is shown by past actions. TH is quirky and has her own issues, but TH really doesn’t have motive for hiding Kyron, as she would have worked harder to protect her daughter’s custody if that were the case. And stepdad TY’s motive would likely be to end a possible perceived interference in his life by children (He allegedly had a vasectomy pre-marriage, he didn’t want children!)
I have to leave family custody issues on the table… Who took Kyron and why? Finding Kyron First was the way to get the answers… I wish everyone had focused on THAT in the early days instead of finger pointing. It may be too late now, and I wonder if we will ever know what really happened. Sadly. I think it will be Kyron himself ‘finding Kyron’ that will blow this case to solution. But when?
I know some really believe that an SO took him, but I can’t close the door on ANY possibility, until I someone can be proven factually guilty of a proven crime. All we know for sure is that Kyron VANISHED from Skyline School!
Maybe we already have the answer why Kyron went missing Why he hasn’t been found why all the donations
A dramatic Devorce and custody case Steroids Searches
Sext, MFH many ugly mean sites And TAnd D harassment
Strange bed fellows Promotions of people. Disappearance of people
Maybe we just can’t see through the fog or don’t see the oblivious
O/T Jared from Subway really was a shock and this is petty of me to think ad say but I hope he gains 245 back
In lock up
Sick of these kind out there
from TRuth’s post:
”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/dateline_nbc_highlights_puts_s.html
For Young, “strike two” came when investigators told him cell phone records belied Moulton Horman’s timeline of where she was the day Kyron disappeared.”
We know these O writers get many facts wrong, and often just copy secondary written sources. There are no quote marks around a direct statement from Tony. But, on the slim chance he actually said that to an O writer, it’s ridiculous an investigator would tell Tony a damn thing about the investigation; perhaps Tony was smart enough to know cell phone records don’t say a thing about location (but probably not); and it is unlikely he was smart enough to know an untrianglated ping says nothing about location. Of course we know now that troublebaiting investigator was the troubled-hustory O’Donnell. And Tony himself in hus job was fine with convicting with the slimest of circumstantial evidence.