Kyron Horman Missing: New Years Eve Settlement Ends Horman Marriage
Portland, OR- In a surprise court hearing, Judge Henry Kantor signed off on the agreement between Kaine Horman and Terri Moulton Horman to end their marriage this afternoon.
Details of the agreement have not been released publicly, but according to KGW, a financial settlement to include child support and a lump payment to Terri Horman has been reached.
In what can only be described as a bitter family court feud- the divorce matter was last in court on December 16th to decide if the Horman landscaper, Rodolfo Sanchez Estrada -who alleges Terri Horman tried to hire him to murder Kaine Horman at a lunch meeting – would testify.
Judge Kantor has not yet filed an order from that hearing but Attorneys for Terri Horman were granted a continuance from the pending temporary custody motion scheduled for December 19th and 20th.
BOC Associate Editor Tarin Kenley contributed to this report.
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@Mom3.0, As sole custodian of BabyK, fact is, it is squarely on KH’s shoulders. He is in charge of her spiritual, emotional and physical well being. It is a big responsibility, and may require him to do things he would rather not, for her benefit, such as seeing her brother. It is not about what he wants, it I about what is best for her. From KH’s perspective, he knew she was already missing Kyron and her mother, should her separation from her other half-brother been seen as a priority or inconsequential?
but Blink, how would the roid thing give her a civil claim?
Unless she alleged the whole RO/Keeping Kitty as Kaine’s Kid
(This is MY Kandy) — whatever — was solely revenge for having called the Detective on him. She’d have to prove he knew by the RO time. He was probably told by mcso detectives just after the abduction that she’d turned him in as they were polying him & exploring threats linked to him.
Refusing to impersonate a ham sandwich?
Teasing, I dunno, but i do not think the MCSO knew anything about that old roid info until they read it here. Recall that DDS was NEVER asked about whether Kaine used roids, only her and TMH, and that was in the civil case, the criminal case in interview and her gj testimony. I can’t confirm this with anyone but Kaine, and obviously that is not on his action items app, but I do not believe Kaine ever knew about TMH speaking to a detective about his roid usage years ago either.
I know that a source is adamant that Kaine was using roids in December 2009, but again, can’t confirm that but it would be more time sensitive.
B
“It makes everything Engel said disingenuous at best, and bad faith at worst.
ie: she does not know who she is. vs In TMH absence ( by choice) Baby K
has maternally bonded with a significant other , blah blah. It is a stronger argument then LE said to tell her Her mother is dead, no?
B”
What’s new about your first sentence? (imo it’s Petitioner’s Counsels’ litigation style.)
Of course it’s a stronger argument, but imo they aren’t there in the briefs yet.
They’d let the bonding go on as many years as possible before arguing it.
And KH wouldn’t want his merry-go-round gals outed. He has sterling character
as a single father. You’ve said there’s a girlfriend. Taking up with him preseparation,
she has run the risk of outing. Others on line say she moved in. Why is the likely
psycho. mother of kitty shielded this far into the litigation?
I agree with you in theory that they would not want it on the record but I have to believe that within Kaine’s deposition this would have come out. IIRC, wasn’t it 166 pages? There’s just no way I can see him ( yes, there was a mistress I am aware of and according to family members so was TMH) shacking up in the middle of this, toddler in tow, separated from her Mother, he tells her she is dead and the other woman is her Mom? He is just not that dumb- this guy controlling info at his workplace on day 2 cares about the public sentiment.
B
aw NelMel. Who could possibly penetrate DY’s thought style or rationality?
We know too little of her reasoning despite her volubility.
Imo she is also rooted in her family of origin both constitutionally (genetic) and environmentally.
@Blink wrt “something the petitioner knew would be a part of the award or eval?”
I do not think KH would want to share custody with psycho. mom via award or eval.
imo she’d be psychologically-seductive window-dressing for Vien (a 2-parent family, capable mothering figure in the home, attachment finctionally supplanting the prior attachment to Terri, in kitty’s best interests to continue to see this 3.5 year relationship as Mom, etc).
Like the grandparents in O’Donnell had no greater attachment to kids than father but were a 2-parent family model, had property, were fixed in 1 location, etc.. Imo Vien bought window dressing-my opinion-in that one appellate case he did not factor in supervening fit **** single **** parent rights.
when Terri goes in to be evaluated by this man, imo she needs to buy into his world view.
that all she cares about, for 3 years, her behavior has all bern focused to kitty’s best interests.
She has to work off HIS entrenched worldview, which does NOT factor in parent’s rights, needs, loves.
Then she has to persuade him it is in kitty’s best interests to unite with & have a relationship with her birth mother.
That is best accomplished by recounting tender moments when kitty had needs, & Terri uniquely recognized them & responded. If I were TH, I would never diminish father without an explicit question but would assert with great tenderness how she recognized & met kitty’s needs in a unique way.
catching a plane at 5 am so this is my last.
A normal man who parented a son thru his adolescence
would absolutely reach out to him for visitation, conflict with mother aside.
A normal man whose daughter had lost 2 brothers, mother, grandpatents, would reach
out & arrange regular grandparent visits, bringing brother. These are
circumspect Moultons & would play by Kaine’s rules. Imo he wanted no
reminders of mother whatsoever from family members.
It is beyond odd that a Father, knowing one brother was lost, would cut off a 2 year old from 4 significant other nuclear family members all at once, in addition. To me it means he was capable of disappearing a child. He disappeared 4 people who were the backbone of kitty’s world,
Keeping in mind the DA must bring criminal charges if against
Kaine, I can’t see that happening. Loss of face, if not of Kyron case.
Ergo it would have to be a Federal case.
“Amys Sister says:
January 5, 2014 at 2:28 am”
Response: Right On!
@Rose
It’s not malpractice if the lawyer or party can show that it was an error or typo. Typos happen all the time, even in final judgments, and can be corrected by filing something like a “Motion to Correct Clerical Error” under Oregon Rules of Civil Procedure:
RELIEF FROM JUDGMENT OR ORDER
71 A Clerical mistakes
71 B Mistakes; inadvertence; excusable neglect; newly discovered evidence, etc.
NelMel says: January 5, 2014 at 1:37 pm
Regarding your question about our opinion as to what evidence DY has, after completing her latest search. I believe DY made the statement to media, immediately following her search, while still at the site. I remember watching the video. My gut feeling while watching her (meaning no disrespect to DY) was: DY is hopeful that the search uncovered evidence. Lets hope it isn’t something as innocent as a candy wrapper of Ky’s favorite candy or something similar.
IMO, no credible evidence came from the search, DY dropped the subject and media didn’t follow up.
Staton predicted “other cases” and would not say whether criminal or civil.
beejay says:
September 18, 2010 at 9:25 am
Paraphrasing Staton, from the original raw video of the presser announcing Task Force creation (on 9-15-10):
After this is over, there will be areas of “concern” that will be addressed; the media will be a part of that; there may be “notifications” to “other govt. entities”. There could be other cases that may come out of it; wouldn’t say whether criminal cases or not [ie, could be civil]. This will come out at the end, at the debriefing, when we will all look back at it.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/09/09/kyron-horman-missing-case-review-and-birthday-wishes-to-the-frog-prince/comment-page-16/#comments
NelMel says:
January 5, 2014 at 1:37 pm
I will ask everyone their opinion…(peeling old dried spaghetti off the south wall)…
What do some of you suspect is “the evidence” that DY has indicated exists about TMH and in Kyron’s case? From her POV, what she has decided is “evidence,” what is it?
Aside from emails we will probably never see.
She has indicated that “we found things” when referring to her searches. She has never indicated what those “things” are and there is no indication that LE has those “things.”
—————
I don’t think DY ever found any evidence during her most recent search. She probably just wanted to get under Terri’s skin by saying they found things. IMO I have noticed over the years that DY is not opposed to half truths and occasional outright lying to get her point across.
RE: January says:
January 5, 2014 at 4:05 pm
Here is my poll (thanks in advance to anyone willing to participate)
**********
“1. Do you tend to believe part of RSE Depo (such as that Terri told RSE she was afraid KH would take Child K away from her) but not other parts (such as Terri tried to arrange for RSE to Kill Kaine).”
- Answer: I believe all of his testimony, which was taken under oath for several reasons. First, would have subjected himself to perjury charges if he lied. Second, IF he had an immunity deal, he has no reason to lie. Third, I have not seen any verifiable evidence that he has ever lied. Fourth, there has been evidence that TH is less than honest so if I had to pick between believing RS’s account or TH’s account, I’d believe his.
2. Do you believe that RSE understood the MFH conversation perfectly and is being honest to the best of his ability?
- Answer: I believe he is being honest (see response above). The level of RS’s English comprehension has not been verified, nor has TH’s comprehension of Spanish, so I could not speak to how much of the conversation was understood by the participants. However, I would note that there are several matters to which RS testifies that would be difficult to confuse.
3. Do you believe that RSE believes his Depo to be honest, however, his language barrier caused him to misunderstand Terri?
- Answer: I believe RS was honest (see response above).
4. Do you believe that RSE is lying, and if so why?
- Answer: I have not seen any evidence to indicate he has perjured himself, nor anything to provide a motive for him to do so. I do see a huge motive for TH’s attorneys to assert that RS is not being truthful.
Does anyone have a copy of any of the depositions in this case that they can post online?
Jae- none are available publicly, only the excerpted versions in the motions. Those links should all be here.
B
I just read part of Engel’s opposition on VW’s blog. I am amazed that he pays lip service to the fact that Oregon law prohibits drawing an adverse inference if a party takes the fifth in a civil case, but then cites federal cases in support of the idea that the court should draw an adverse inference anyway. He knows that the state law trumps the federal law. He knows the judge and the other lawyers know that. What is he thinking?
It gets better. He actually mentioned it in the hearing, in open court, and Judge Kantor made a joke out of it when Houze objected, citing adverse inference, and Kantor replied something like.. he could not have said that as that would be sanctionable. As I understand the Oregon Bar Regs- Houze may have been compelled to file a complaint as to that utterance. He is known to.
B
@Essay Kaye says:
January 6, 2014 at 5:51 am
(snipped)
Fourth, there has been evidence that TH is less than honest so if I had to pick between believing RS’s account or TH’s account, I’d believe his.
*******************
There has? There is evidence that TH has lied? I’m forgetting, what was that *evidence* that she was less than truthful about something? Not sayng she didn’t, I just seem to have forgotten.
I know everyone said she lied about the $300K in her text with MC, well she was close, $250K paid by her family and I wouldn’t be surprised if by now it is closer to $300K. What else? I’ve heard Ms Young call Terri a pathological liar, but when both of them, DY & KH, were publicly asked for an example all DY could come up with was her lying about how she met Kaine. Which btw, was the same story Mr. Horman obviously was telling his family, because his own ex-sister-in-law (HIS brother’s ex-wife) had the same story in her pocket. In that same interview, DY & KH then were both asked, publicly, for something more recent Terri had lied about……they had zero to say, couldn’t come up with anything and began to look quite uncomfortable. Interestingly, the didn’t even mention her lying about anything having to do with their missing son. This conversation took place on national TV on Oprah. I don’t have the clip anymore, but I remember it well.
I can tell you Mr Horman has reversed himself on several matters throughout this case, when referring to certain things, such as Terri’s demeanor and whether or not he knew if she was on prescription medication. Some may call that lying, some being forgetful, which it could be, as he seems to have lost some recall during his recent deposition as well, at least in the tiny snip of his deposition we’ve seen.
*****************
@NelMel
Nutter Butter wrappers? Seriously, I think they found nothing but some sort of garbage that could have come from anyone, and Desiree was just using that information to exaggerate the situation and put pressure on TMH, which she’s been doing all along. Nothing new here, IMO.
The part of our beloved Malty will be played by T.Ruth today
LOL
B
There is only one Malty, but thanks for the compliment.
Was just saying that no one in this case, can seem to admit when they’ve made a mistake, starting with LE, on June 4, 2010. Not the school, not the DA’s office, not the judges, not no one, no how. In fact, the only one I’ve seen come close, is Terri Horman, who according to Desiree Young on Dr. Phil, said she was sorry she didn’t walk Kyron all the way to class, but then that wasn’t exactly a mistake, it was because she *thought* he was in good hands.
In fairness, I have heard DY express extreme guilt for not going to the science fair that day, and also for not pressing issues she saw ( albeit this only came out recently) more forcefully. As far as Kaine goes- respectfully he is Charlie Brown’s teacher to me. I have never, and that is saying a lot, never come across an individual so perched in avoidance of a direct question in my life and when DY called him out about the hysterical Kyron she alleges she picked up ( I personally do not believe this happened, I think she said it to provoke a response) that flash of anger from him stayed with me. I still say, how the Hell did neither of them know that the classroom was wrong on Dr. Phil and sit there and vilify TMH’s “account”. Beyond me still.
B
erose says:
January 6, 2014 at 4:15 am
Thanks for that refresher. I think about that statement often, and wonder still what the heck was he talking about and why it would have to wait until this case was over? At the time, I thought he was referring to something that had transpired at the school, other than the disappearance of a child, that had perhaps gone unreported, but now I have no idea.
I don’t particularly like any of the adults in this case, but in Kaine’s defense:
1) He was told by LE that his wife tried to hire a hit man.
2) He may well have been told by his ex’s husband, a detective, that his wife “disappeared” his son.
3) Someone told him that TMH’s accounts of that day were inconsistent.
I have little doubt, that early in this case, he was lead to believe that TMH was a hitman-hiring, child-kidnapping crazy *****. Faced with this information, I likely would have initially behaved as he did.
His subsequent behavior is more troublesome.
I agree that Kaine was told that and more, and he believed them. I also know he had reason to be concerned of his own legal woes wrt steroid use. Well said, I believe he now knows there was never any evidence that this occurred and a few more things he had not been told. Certainly not a good position to be in and I do not envy it. Legally based on the Judge’s rulings, he cant say a word about it if he wanted to.
B
This was August 2, 2010
On Monday afternoon, nine weeks into the investigation, Kyron’s parents — Kaine Horman and Desiree Young — and stepdad, Tony Young, spent several hours testifying before a Multnomah County grand jury. They appeared at the courthouse about 1 p.m., shepherded through a side entrance.
The Youngs left through a back exit about 3 p.m., escorted by sheriff’s deputies to a car. They didn’t respond to reporters’ questions.
Kaine Horman, wearing a Missing Kyron Horman white T-shirt and gray slacks, emerged briefly about 3 p.m. from an eighth-floor conference room in the district attorney’s office. He left the courthouse through the front exit about an hour later, also declining comment.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/multnomah_county_shericomb_thr.html
*************
Kyron’s mother, Desiree Young, and his stepfather, Tony Young, left the Multnomah County Courthouse out a side door following their testimony and were escorted by sheriff’s deputies.
They said nothing and left in an unmarked car.
Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, left separately after more than three hours of speaking with jurors. He also had no comment.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/99801789.html
***********************
The two stories are told a bit differently of the same day’s events.
So, Kaine met with the DA for an additional hour after his GJ testimony. Is it possible that the DA did have pending charges on Kaine, but gave him some sort of limited immunity in order to get him to cooperate with finding a desperately needed suspect, TMH? Could this be what Staton was referring to about might result in further cases?
Gosh I’d hate to believe something like this could happen, but PPS needed to be let off the hook somehow, LE needed to be let off the hook for boggling the initial investigation somehow while assuring everyone there was no danger. Perhaps Kaine Horman dealt steroids to not only LE gymrats but Intel higher ups? Or, is it possible that other things were held over Kaine Horman’s head in order to get him to cooperate in their fishing expedition for TMH?
IDK, but I’ve often wondered what was going on in the court house that day. Neither Frink nor Underhill would even confirm Kaine’s GJ testimony, makes me wonder.
@TRuth, I re-posted thinking it might be a clue, relevant to the “crimes” clause in the divorce documents.
T. Ruth says:
January 6, 2014 at 1:34 pm
erose says:
January 6, 2014 at 4:15 am
Thanks for that refresher. I think about that statement often, and wonder still what the heck was he talking about and why it would have to wait until this case was over? At the time, I thought he was referring to something that had transpired at the school, other than the disappearance of a child, that had perhaps gone unreported, but now I have no idea.
@ Essay Kaye, re: RSE…
I agree and have thought all the same things you posted.
@ TRuth: Terri told MC she paid 350K for Houze, 100K more than the 250K her parents gave her. His retainer may have been even less than the Moulton’s gift so the discrepancy/fabrication is potentially even more ridiculous. She also lied for years and to many people about doing yard work RSE was actually doing. Terri also appears to have frequent miscommunication issues, ie… Miss Porter, Rudy, Desiree, Kaine, and as Dede stated, she always comes with drama.
AS-
We don’t know the questions and responses outside of Engel’s paraphrasing- in fact, he did not include excerpts of the parents regarding the testimony he references, which in my jurisdiction and most, would be stricken if not supported.
Alright, maybe stricken is a strong word considering it would require motion, but let’s agree that would be argued. Additionally, we don’t know if what TMH stated was not acurrate at the time. Maybe she took out a loan via other means for 100K, maybe there was an adjustment, etc. Maybe it was an estimate and the retainer amount was less than the quote. There is all kinds of room where this is not a lie or mistatement, jus sayin’.
B
@Rose, I laugh that so many things can be interpreted both ways, as in the silence behind the error. About that federal case, that is the one that was postponed 12/30/13, which caused speculation about the “emergency hearing.”
Amys Sister, thank you for yr well thought out response to my questions-
I understand that they are opinion based I respect that as are mine
I have always found you to be fair minded and not one to jump to conclusions- so I was kindof taken aback at the vehemence of yr thoughts directed @ kaine.
I am glad to read yr latest post has the Amysister approach I have come to know and respect.
We do know at one point, both kaine and James wished to see and talk with one another- we know at the time that james voiced his longing to see his sister.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html
snip
James said he misses his little sister — and would like to see Kaine as well.
“He was like a dad to me,” James said. “I lived with him for eight years.”
Kaine hopes to talk to James again soon.
— end snip
James being a teen could have expressed a longing to see Kitty and Kaine but as a teen he may just not have been up to the work/travel etc that it would take- i agree and i dont fault him for that nor do i fault kaine for focusing on other bigger issues the same for TH- perhaps they were all thinking it best to wait until the divorce is final-alas that alone took years…
Kaine could have easily called and asked? How do we know that he didnt and how do we know the ease at which this could bave happened?
How can we conclude the family of James would have been open to such an scenario?
we dont know and for all we know, Kaine or James tried to initiate this in a non formal manner and it was mutually decided by james father Richard Echer and his grandparents and kaine that it would be best to wait until the divorce was final before initiating visitation.
Perhaps they did not want to place young james in the middle of this having to see his mom and be questioned about Kitty and Kaine…or having to refrain from speaking about it out of respect for his mom and the Ro and court battle… perhaps they feared for his safety seeing as how Kyron disappeared, for all they knew James could have been a target- perhaps they wanted to spare james from being in the middle of so many court cases puting him in the predicament of having to later be witness for kaine or for Terri or LE…best to wait… IDK
There are many things we dont know mostly what were the thoughts of all involved- many variables they had to take into account which we dont know we just cant know
what we do know is that Kaine could have went to the courts and asked for visitation between James and Kiara- -
He didnt- what we dont know is why he didnt- and it could have been for the best of reasons or the worst as cd opined we just dont know
We know that Terri could have done this for James- but since she according to the article above- sent james away and therefore previously somewhat damaged the sibling relationship between james and Kiara and Kyron… perhaps it wasnt an issue for her to wait either- until the other court matters were thru add to that she invoked the 5th it seems she would not have worked for James ITR-
She didnt- so it could have been for the best of reasons or the worst we just dont know
We know James grandparents could have done this for themselves and for james they didnt – it may have been for the best of reasons we dont know.
TH parents could have done this for themselves asked for visitation w/ kiara- they didnt they too have their reasons we cant know-
If TH had fought the Ro and had cont on with her bid to custody or visitation then James could have seen his sister too-
If TH parents had visitation then James could have also seen Kitty thru them-
If his dad facilitated the petition he could have seen Kitty
Kaine could have went to court for this to gain visitation for james and Kitty
Once an adult, James himself could have facilitated either a nonformal or formal agreement to see Kitty he hasnt
All these adults failed to secure an ongoing relationship between James and Kitty not just Kaine
As I said kitty and james’ relationship suffered – I agree and it is a crying shame- but i think the “blame” for this is not squarely on kaines shoulders alone….
Thanks for hearing me out and I respect yr opinion also
AJMO Peace
@Mom3.0, No one needed to go to court. All that was needed was an invitation. Perhaps there was one.
@Amy’s Sis, The yard work (mowing, weeding, edging) may have been done by TH and removing blackberry bushes, trimming trees could have been done by RSE.
@January says:
January 5, 2014 at 4:05 pm
Good questions, but with what little we actually know it’s too hard for me to say. We don’t know what, if anything, RSE was granted in return for his testimony. We know nothing about him at all really.
If he’s such a great human being, why on earth did he not come forward with this information when the entire State of Oregon was looking for little Kyron? Instead he had to be tracked down, and his recent comment about wishing he wasn’t a part of this at all? Kinda’ makes no sense to me. If this man truly believed TMH was capable of hiring someone to kill her husband, or a child, really aksing him to kill her husband, would he not be glad he could help bring justice and possibly assist in finding a little boy? Add to that Blink says it was Terri herself who pointed to him as a possible suspect in Kyron’s disappearance? Why would she do that if she’d asked him to murder her husband?
“In the course of speaking with everyone who had contact with the Hormans, authorities tracked down a landscaper who told them Terri Horman had asked him to kill her husband about six to seven months before Kyron’s disappearance. Investigators shared that information with Kaine Horman on June 26, prompting him to leave the house with their daughter, Kiara, now 20 months old, and file for divorce and a restraining order against his wife two days later.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/multnomah_county_shericomb_thr.html
The timing of said meeting has changed by months, went from saying 6 or 7 months before to now, five, so how clear is the rest of the meeting to this man? I don’t know if they had an affair, maybe they did, maybe not. I have no idea how credible this man is.
I do think one part of what little we’ve seen of his deposition is most likely true, I think Terri was afraid of losing her daughter to Kaine. I’d like to know why. Mothers usually end up (I know not always) with at least a 50% joint custody unless there’s some sort of problem. Why would she be concerned she’d lose her little girl, PRIOR to Kyron’s disappearance? I don’t think any of us can answer that, though maybe Desiree Young can and I know Kaine can.
Whether or not the part about Kaine harming Terri emotionally or physically may be true, IMO, he seems pretty darn good at the emotionally part, whether one agrees he has cause or not, he’s good at it.
Remember, it’s not just TMH’s emails who has said Kaine was controlling in this case, so did Desiree’s Dad, Kyron’s Papa, and Desiree told Terri she knew probably better than anyone what she was going through, living with Kaine, and of course Pitkin shouted it to the world. No need to look at this man with blinders on, but do I know if his controlling ways resulted in emotional harm to Terri, nope, only she knows that answer.
This case is so darn sad, for the children.
RE: T. Ruth says:
January 6, 2014 at 12:48 pm
@Essay Kaye says:
January 6, 2014 at 5:51 am
(snipped)
There has? There is evidence that TH has lied? I’m forgetting, what was that *evidence* that she was less than truthful about something? Not sayng she didn’t, I just seem to have forgotten.
I know everyone said she lied about the $300K in her text with MC, well she was close, $250K paid by her family and I wouldn’t be surprised if by now it is closer to $300K. What else?
*****************************************************************************
There are several instances in which it appears TH gave people different accounts of events, depending on whom it was she was talking to about the event. For example, one of her ex-husbands (who also alleges TH cheated on him during their marriage before she left him after the failure of the restaurant they owned together) said in an interview that TH had her son move out prior to Kyron’s disappearance due to poor grades [http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12165-irreconcilable.html], while TH allegedly told others that KH made her son move out [http://www.katu.com/news/local/100511654.html]. Of course, it is possible that the people conversing with TH did not correctly recall the conversations.
However, TH herself – in the same unfortunate publicized sexts to MC in which she claims Houze cost $350k – also admits to not being truthful about meeting with MC because she knew she’d get in trouble, then asks MC to not tell the truth if he is questioned about meeting with TH, to which MC protests TH asking him to lie for her [http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/redacted-text-messages.PDF]. That being said, just because someone isn’t truthful does not make them a murderer. However, IMO it does go to credibility, especially in a “he said / she said” situation.
@Blink’s comment on Kantor and Engels: As I understand the Oregon Bar Regs- Houze may have been compelled to file a complaint as to that utterance. He is known to.
B
Did he ever file a complaint about Rackner including the sexts as a totally irrelevant and inflammatory exhibit to KH’s baseless contempt complaint (baseless because Kaine and Michael Cook were in collusion so there was no privacy violation if Terri let Cook see some document)? Houze said it was sanctionable conduct in his response, but he didn’t explain why it was sanctionable.
Dunno. I believe it is private as to “cause” until and if it makes it past grievance. But I know why- Rackner could be accused as acting as an agent of LE, by her filing, usage of improper prima facie and the fact that she could be called a witness, creating a conflict. She has never spoken in court since, and Engel was never seen prior.
B
Amy’s Sister says:
January 6, 2014 at 3:24 pm
Oh geeze, I brought up the retainer amount, because IMO that’s totally insignificant. Sorry, 350K not 300K, you are correct. How do we know at the time that’s not what she had been quoted as possible fee? How do we know her little texty sexty finger didn’t hit a 3 instead of 2? Happens to folks here all the time, doesn’t men one is a pathological liar. I do not have any idea what she told RSE, nor do I have any idea if and why she lied about any yard work or housework or any other kind of work. I’d like to know, but I don’t. I’ve seen no evidence that points to TMH being chronic liar. In fact, much of what I’ve seen of her emails, which ain’t much, has pretty much turned out to be fact.
Why couldn’t KH & DY, think of one thing she’d lied to them about when they were asked? Why didn’t either one of them say, “She lied about what she did with Kyron.”? OR ANYTHING significant at all?
I don’t know, she may very well be, but for me, I’d have to see evidence. I refuse to believe half truths told by others. I guess someday we will find out one way or the other, at least I hope so.
wrt “Teasing, I dunno, but i do not think the MCSO knew anything about that old roid info until they read it here. Recall that DDS was NEVER asked about whether Kaine used roids, only her and TMH, and that was in the civil case, the criminal case in interview and her gj testimony. I can’t confirm this with anyone but Kaine, and obviously that is not on his action items app, but I do not believe Kaine ever knew about TMH speaking to a detective about his roid usage years ago either.”
That you for this fine analysis.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2013/12/31/kyron-horman-missing-new-years-eve-settlement-ends-horman-marriage/#comments
impersonating a ham sandwich? how about a potted plant?
Seriously, Petitioner’s repr seems to be impersonating the Engineer of the Cannonball Express, while Bunch is impersonating the Little Engine That Could.
I thought TMH’s text to Cook was an estimate from Houze of what a defense of a murder charge would cost, not that she paid $350,000 that day or that time. I can’t imagine a criminal defense attorney would demand that kind of retainer when there hasn’t even been an arrest.
@Jae Joi. nice to hear from you as to the rules
& ordinary procedures. I am missing Kaine’s usual
press comments.
If it is a clerical error or inadvertant, let’s hope
Engel corrects. If so, it is overwhelmingly in
his interests not to do so unless Bunch forces.
Iirc, Bunch was going on vacation.
I usually buy Blink’s opinion,
so bring those criminal charges on!
What did Terri do (before Kyron disappeared) that made Kaine hate her so much?
The absolute only thing I can think of is the weight gain, because he might have wanted a “hottie” on his arm.
Terri seems to have been a good and caring mom for all of those children. I wonder what he did that drove her to the very edge, yet unable to actually take the baby and leave him. (I think she probably vocalized a lot, but don’t think she actually wanted him DEAD.DEAD.
Maybe he’s just a clod.
@Rose says: January 6, 2014 at 12:44 am
Rose says, Iirc, Bunch was going on vacation.
I usually buy Blink’s opinion,
so bring those criminal charges on!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bunch said vacation late Jan. He promised to do his filing by Jan 24, so I bet his vacation is right after that. so he has 18 days to get stuff done. if it’s a typo and they have to file a corrected dissolution doc, how long do they have to do that?
Lizzy says: Doesn’t James get to see his little sister? If so, how have they managed the ruse that Terri doesn’t exist? If not, how are they justifying the complete severing of sibling ties?
@Rose, thanks for the heads-up on the comments on the previous thread.
Does not and has not since June 2010.
B
——
Blink, your response reads like James does not get to see Kitty due to a ruse of separating sibling ties.
Do you know if there was an intentional separation of the siblings on Kaine’s behalf or if either James or Kaine have made attempts to keep the siblings connected?
I know only that Kaine never sought visitation on his or Kiara’s behalf. I know that TMH sought visitation via counsel outside of proceedings we are all aware of, for Kiara and she was precluded from contact, so it would not have been possible for her to do any work on the sibling connections without being in contempt.
Is interesting that the petitioner who alleges her motive was really “can’t split the sibs half, step, or other” and yet Kaine clearly saw no benefit to the relationships.
B
@Blink: I agree Terri’s text could have more than one meaning.
MC congratulates her on retaining Houze and she says: Guess how much he costs then offers the answer as $350,000.
I do believe we will find out that she has a history of half and mis truths but that is JMO.
I’ve no doubt Kaine has similar issues but related more to omission.
WRT the sexting content that stated that Houze “costs” $350,000, I’ve never believed that this comment referred to TMH having PAID him $350,000.
I can say “Guess how much that painting costs? $350,000!” And ooo – aaa, boy, can I rumble some butts, making people think I can afford to buy that painting.
I sense that sum was a rough quote from the law practice on what TMH was facing by way of long term billing in her specific case and situation, worst case scenario.
How that comment became “She has $350,000 and I wanna know where it came from!” and next a series of website and Facebook howls that “TMH had all that money!!” is beyond me. Well, no, actually, I get it. People hear what they want to hear.
Trying to catch up- please bear with me so many interesting thoughts Id like to comment on…not just addressed to me.
First to Rose
Re rose: Rose says:
January 5, 2014 at 11:23 pm
@3.0 wrt
“Rose what Oregon case law are you referring to, please?”
I have posted links multiple times to two Appeals Court
findings discussing unrelated & related psychological parents
on the prior thread & this thread.
I also posted a url to an Oregon attorney’s masterly overview summarizing all the cases since Troxel citing cases with brief summaries. You would have to read my past posts & go to the urls & read.
I found all I posted urls to with a minute or so of googling .
*****************************************************************
hello rose- not gonna google
but I saw those links at the time- I asked if there was a law specifically to which you were basing yr thoughts-
seems there is none specifically- just as findings pertain to certain case appeals etc- IOW circumstances matter aas to how it might pertain or not…
Oregon is a no fault state- and unless the significant other was a danger to the child (sex offender- abusive-etc) if the relationship didn’t affect the spouse’s ability to care for the children then it seems it would be a non-issue
Therefor it wouldnt matter with who or at what point kaine became involved – as long as kiaras needs were met and she was well taken care of-
Calling some other person Mom is not a sign of abuse…
-without evidence of psychological damage it matters not if kiara called this proposed other woman “mom”
young children especially toddlers often call all female caregivers mom- many separated and divorced children call their parents significant other mom or dad-
It hurts mom or dad but it is not evidence of psychological damage o the child.
— We cant say whether or not kaine told Kiara TH was dead- she may have said something like this we dont know-
If TH believes this her lawyer will handle it, as he thought to ask the question did he not? a question doesnt necessarily make it true though…
if terri had these same concerns of yours then she could have brought it to her lawyers attention and matters could have been dealt with, ofcourse she most likely would have had to testify to her fears and any claims of abuse psychological physical emotional… so perhaps that is why we have not heard fears of such abuse in this case…yet
But now that the divorce is final if TH feels kiara is being abused or if she feels kiara shouldnt be around a person there are avenues to which her lawyers can advocate a mutually beneficial agreement thru a parenting plan
snipped:
What if my children are being abused?
If you believe your children are in immediate danger, you should call 911. You and your attorney can also go to court in person and ask for an “ex parte” (meaning, without the other side) hearing under statute ORS 107.139. You will need to write a detailed affidavit explaining the immediate danger. You will also need to show the judge that you made a good faith effort to contact your former spouse about the purpose and time of the hearing. The ex parte judge may then make an order awarding you temporary custody and will arrange to serve the order on your former spouse. If your former spouse contests the order, there will be another hearing within 14 days.
If your children are not in immediate danger, you should call the child abuse hotline for your county. The numbers can be found online at http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/children/abuse/cps/cw_branches.shtml. State that you wish to report suspected child abuse.
Except where the abuse is an emergency situation requiring a 911 call, you should probably contact a lawyer about your options before you make a report to the authorities. Your lawyer can give you a realistic evaluation about how the court or welfare office might respond. Your lawyer can also help you avoid court and other sanctions for unwarranted abuse reports. The Oregon court system often looks unfavorably on a parent who makes abuse allegations during the pendency of a custody dispute when the child has no physical injuries or has not made clear disclosures of abuse.
What if I object to my former spouse’s new romantic partner?
It is understandable to be concerned about a new adult with whom your children have contact. Unless this contact violates your parenting plan, you usually have no legal recourse. Provisions of your parenting plan may have been created to address this, such as:
A prohibition on non-parent adults staying overnight when the children are present in the home.
A right of first refusal stating that if one parent is not able to care for the children directly during his or her parenting time, then the other parent must be offered that time first (before a babysitter or even a stepparent).
An agreement that no new romantic partners are to be introduced to the children until certain requirements are met (such as until a specified time period or a meeting with the other parent).
What if my former spouse insults me to my children or to others?
Generally, there is no legal recourse. In extreme cases, if your co-parent “brainwashes” your children against you and your children participate in insulting you, you may have a claim for parental alienation. Similarly extreme, if your co-parent lies about you in public and thereby causes monetary damage to you, you may have a claim for defamation. Both kinds of claims are difficult to win. If you believe you may have such a claim, you should contact a lawyer.
end snip
-Is Terri suing for defamation ?.. IDK – I have no doubt though that all will be sorted out
Its hard to claim parent alienation when yourinaction caused much the same on its own…
For instance,
cd says:
January 5, 2014 at 4:05 am
Does anyone know if a psy eval is going to done to determine if babyK has suffered any physiological damage due to separation from her mother at an early age. I think that that really needs to be done in this case to determine custody and visitation.
**************************************************************
—It is terris own legal choices that contributed to the long separation of child from mother at such an early age- if any damage was done to kiara psychologically then she must share in the blame-
it is sad but it is true- just as kiara will someday wonder why kaine took her away from terri initially…she will someday wonder why terri did not stand up early and fight the RO and why she withdrew her bid at custody and visitation for 3 long years.-
Some here may blame one parent over another- but little kitty especially as a teen will blame them both.
AJMO Peace
Rose says:
January 5, 2014 at 11:27 pm
@3.0. the only way Terri could have a civil tort claim against Kaine relating to her minor son would be if Kaine (not Kristian, not Tony) injured one of her children and even then imo the claim would run to the child, not mother. The injury or tort could take many forms. I in no way suggested molestation by Kristian or Tony.
Rose says:
January 5, 2014 at 11:31 pm
3.0. said “I also think bringing up a scenario where Kyron was poss. being molested by a family member and kaine would have known this and his fear would have been that Kyron residing with a police man Tony would be risky…is nonsensical”
I did not say this. A hypothetical tort (injury) would be perpetrated by the criminally charged,
and there are plenty of statutes any citizen may violate –
as you know, if you read my posts–we all scroll, so no hard feelings–
it is my belief charges pend against her.
Rose says:
January 5, 2014 at 11:34 pm
I do suggest though, 3.0, in my opinion both Kristian & Chrisopher & the prior generations’ apparent divorce management style of other-parent “cut offs,” are examples of a family system with troubling treatment of progeny.
************************************************************
Hey rose
Rose you wrote:
“So Kyron would reside in the home of a policeman & feel safe. Isn’t there a possibility, Blink, Kaine would fear that byproduct of a Terri divorce wrt Kyron? Here I am thinking of Kristian recounting family history.!”
exclamation point after the name Kristian who we know Kaine Horman’s brother, Kristian Horman, was arrested for child molestation.\we also know that according to Kristian’s “recounting” of “family history” included the claim that his grandfather molested him for years
snipped:
When police interviewed him, Kristian Horman at first said he was asleep and couldn’t remember what had happened. Finally he confessed, according to court records, saying he was trying to “arouse and initiate relations” with the girl.
Police asked Kristian Horman what he was thinking about after the girl pulled away. He then revealed there was a history of abuse in the Horman family, court records show, and said his grandfather had abused him.
“He indicated that he was thinking about all the stuff his grandfather had done to him,” the court records say, “and remembering how he felt during the time.” Kristian Horman was sentenced June 16 to six months in jail.
end snip http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12134-troubled_family.html
you then wrote:
“I in no way suggested molestation by Kristian or Tony.”
Not Tony- I never said that or read that from yr posting but your post did seem to suggest that Kyron needed protection ( and Tony would be that protection) from molestation from someone…who IDK you mentioned Kristian with exclamation- so to me it seems you were either referring to a poss scenario with Kristian or grandpa…. both said to be child molesters….
you seemed to suggest that Kaine would want to keep Kyron away from Tonys protection…seemingly suggesting that he would not want Kyron spilling any beans on any family secrets past present….
Rose- I admit perhaps i misread yr intentions sorry-
AJMO Peace
RE
cd says:
January 5, 2014 at 2:22 am
Mom3.0 says:
January 5, 2014 at 12:30 am
Why is it that we seem to be holding Kaine accountable for the lack of relationship between the siblings?
————–
IMO
Because Kaine does not want James around answering any questions babaK may have about her mother or potentially undoing any falsehoods Kaine represented to babyK about TH. What if K has told babyK her mother is dead or left the country.
Denying TH any kind of visitation supervised or otherwise is a big mistake Kaine is making that I think he will live to regret.
**************************************************************
cd- hi
all of this is based upon yr opinion – to our knowledge james has only good things to say about Kaine he wished to see them both-
Kaine expressed much the same-
You could be right or you could be wrong IDK what kaine or terri or james or Kitty is thinking or feeling or what there motives are for any action or inaction….
all i am saying is kaine’s actions or inactions are not the only ones that contributed to any loss of sibling relationship so he shouldnt be solely held accountable
KIM we dont have any evidence of Kaine wanting to keep the siblings apart it seems it is Terri who had no qualms in separating them with James initial move- which James did not state came at kaines insistence…
in fact the article reads as if to james it was no big deal that his mom sent him away….
“It didn’t bother me,” he said. “Me and my mom moved around a lot, and I came down in summers anyway.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html
In February, Terri sent James to Roseburg to live with his maternal grandparents.
“I was on a business trip when she made that decision,” Kaine said. “She called me on my first day (in California) and said they had gotten into a fight. She couldn’t handle it anymore. She was going to call his dad to talk about other options.”
Kaine said he didn’t want James to move out, but it wasn’t his decision.
James, who flashes an easy grin and trades quips with his stepmother, Angela Rockwood, said he took the move in stride.
“It didn’t bother me,” he said. “Me and my mom moved around a lot, and I came down in summers anyway.”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100511654.html
When you speak of kaine denying TH supervision he could not deny her anything it isnt his choice but the courts choice and the court could make no decision other than to stand behind the RO because terri chose not to fight it and withdrew her bid at custody and visitation and did so for years.
and I think she too will live to regret these choices just as kiane will have regrets because it seems had she fought early on- she would have came away with infant Kitty in her arms as she was the primary caregiver and Oregon holds that in great regard- oregon also takes into account the fostering of any ongoing loving relationships-
http://www.mckinleyirvin.com/divorce-in-oregon/part-4/
(this is a very good link on Divorce and custody issues in Oregon- and should have been attached to my earlier comment January 6, 2014 at 9:55 pm)
snipped-
Custody in Oregon is determined using the following factors:
Your children’s emotional ties to you, your spouse and other family members living in or near your homes;
You and your spouse’s attitudes toward your children;
Your children’s existing relationships with you and your spouse;
Any abuse of one parent by the other;
A preference for awarding custody to your children’s primary caregiver, as long as that person is a fit parent; and
The willingness and ability of each parent to encourage your children’s close and continuing relationship with the other parent.
The court usually does not consider:
Your income (or that of your spouse);
Your conduct (such as behavior that led to the divorce);
Whether either of you have remarried; and
Your lifestyle.
The Oregon family law court will consider these last factors only if they can cause emotional or physical damage to your children. For instance, one Oregon family law court decision held that a parent could not have custody if he/she was a current illegal drug user, but that his/her past drug use was irrelevant to custody.
Do courts prefer mothers to have custody?
Courts deciding custody are not to give any preference to a parent because of her/his sex. This last sentence bears repeating, because there is so much popular misinformation about divorce. Oregon custody laws specifically state that divorce courts not give preference to either parent on the basis of that parent’s sex. However, as discussed below, custody is most commonly awarded to the children’s primary caregiver, who is often the mother.
Does it matter who does the most parenting while we are separated?
Yes. While the factors listed above (see “How does the court determine custody?”) may appear helpful, in actual practice it is very difficult for judges to fully evaluate a family’s complex relationships in order to decide child custody. Often in disputed custody cases, the Oregon family law court will award legal custody to the parent who has served as the child’s primary caregiver (the parent with the most overnight parenting time) after separation. Getting advice from a lawyer early in the process, before you change your or your children’s living situation, can be crucial in maintaining future relationships with your children.
Are siblings always kept together?
Again, the standard for custody is the “best interest of the child,” and often keeping siblings (or half-siblings) together serves the best interests of children. But there have been cases where the courts find siblings will do better separated.
So Cd yes kaine will have regrets as any parent does- so will Terri
both made decisions that impacted their children-
all I am saying is the blame for any lack of sibling relationship does not belong to kaine alone nor does the lack of relationship with Kitty and her mom only of kaines doing…
AJMO
Peace
Jae Joi says:
January 6, 2014 at 6:03 pm
@Blink’s comment on Kantor and Engels: As I understand the Oregon Bar Regs- Houze may have been compelled to file a complaint as to that utterance. He is known to.
B
Did he ever file a complaint about Rackner including the sexts as a totally irrelevant and inflammatory exhibit to KH’s baseless contempt complaint (baseless because Kaine and Michael Cook were in collusion so there was no privacy violation if Terri let Cook see some document)? Houze said it was sanctionable conduct in his response, but he didn’t explain why it was sanctionable.
Dunno. I believe it is private as to “cause” until and if it makes it past grievance. But I know why- Rackner could be accused as acting as an agent of LE, by her filing, usage of improper prima facie and the fact that she could be called a witness, creating a conflict. She has never spoken in court since, and Engel was never seen prior.
B
************
Well slap my face and call me stupid. I never could figure out why Kaine dropped the contempt complaint. Duh, do I feel dumb.
What kind of connection would there be between killing Kaine and 6 months later disappearing Kyron?
What is the possibility that Kyron was lured from the school by a friend of Kaine’s girlfriend, just because she didn’t want Kyron around? –wanted Kaine all to herself? Maybe thought Terri would take the baby and leave just herself and Kaine there?
*sigh* …. too much TV….
@T. Ruth says:January 6, 2014 at 5:41 pm
@January says:January 5, 2014 at 4:05 pm
“In the course of speaking with everyone who had contact with the Hormans, authorities tracked down a landscaper who told them Terri Horman had asked him to kill her husband about six to seven months before Kyron’s disappearance.
If KH was controlling and emotionally abusive, he could have threatened to make sure she never saw any of her children ever again if they had a big fight.
IOW what kind of work he actually did around their home. Watch her work??
Mostly I agree with T.Ruth’s last sentence.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@T. Ruth says:January 6, 2014 at 5:41 pm
Why would she be concerned she’d lose her little girl, PRIOR to Kyron’s disappearance? I don’t think any of us can answer that, though maybe Desiree Young can and I know Kaine can.
Whether or not the part about Kaine harming Terri emotionally or physically may be true, IMO, he seems pretty darn good at the emotionally part, whether one agrees he has cause or not, he’s good at it.
This case is so darn sad, for the children.
3.0. I with great frequency disclaim the ! you cite as important to my writing, explaining it as an iphone software invention I do not type.
I will be honest, and do not intend to be unkind, but after seeing your inferences from the ! I disclaim 99% of the time, and recently on this thread, and use of same in polemical argument, I scrolled & have nothing further to say.
Fair and respectful response.
Strictly O/T: I would just like to wish warmth to many of you this evening and tomorrow. This is some freaky weather I would not be offended in the least if I never saw it again. I see a frog, or locust- Im outta here.
B
No, your correct.
B
erose says:
January 5, 2014 at 11:39 pm
@Mom3.0, As sole custodian of BabyK, fact is, it is squarely on KH’s shoulders. He is in charge of her spiritual, emotional and physical well being. It is a big responsibility, and may require him to do things he would rather not, for her benefit, such as seeing her brother. It is not about what he wants, it I about what is best for her. From KH’s perspective, he knew she was already missing Kyron and her mother, should her separation from her other half-brother been seen as a priority or inconsequential?
****************************************************************
Hiya erose-
I shared some thoughts with Amys sister that address many of yr points so Ill try not to repeat too much
There are two siblings to which we are discussing-
James and Kitty
any # of adults could have stood up and facilitated for james they did not but no accountability resides there and noone stands up and shouts WTF in their direction…
yes Kaine was in charge of Kittys care her spiritual, emotional and physical well being. It is a big responsibility and may require him to do things he would rather not, for her benefit, such as seeing her brother. It is not about what he wants, it I about what is best for her.
I agree
and why is it that kaine was in charge of little Kittys spiritual emotional and physical well being? Well it is because TH her mother did not fight the RO she withdrew her bid at custody and visitation- so it became kaines sole responsibility.
as Kiaras once primary caregiver, TH, as her mother – always understood it to be a big responsibility and that her role as primary caregiver, mother, protector, would require her to do things she would rather not, but which she would selflessly do for BabyK benefit, such as ensuring she had a GAl or to initially stand up against the RO to not withdraw her claim to visitation and custody….. to participate fully in all MH evals etc…
It wasnt supposed to be about what TH wanted, ( to have protection against speaking out in fear of self incrimination or fear of false arrest even) as her mom it was her job to make sure it was always about what was best for Kitty. And clearly you dont think kaine was best but hey lets hold kaine accountable for all terris legal decisions and mistakes as well as his own- thats fair.
They each share the blame IMO
————
January 6, 2014 at 4:48 pm
@Mom3.0, No one needed to go to court. All that was needed was an invitation. Perhaps there was one.
True and I said as much- my point being that there is a # of adults who were making decisions or refraining from making decisions which impacted the children- it wasnt kaine alone-
All these adults failed to secure an ongoing relationship between James and Kitty not just Kaine
As I said kitty and james’ relationship suffered – I agree and it is a crying shame- but i think the “blame” for this is not squarely on kaines shoulders alone….
Thanks for hearing me out erose and I am not trying to change yr opinion Im just wrking to understand yr POV although i respect it
AJMO Peace
@Mom3.0, We will not see eye wrt TH not fighting the RO, since we have both expressed opinions on that numerous times. That aside, if TH killed Kyron, would that negate BabyK’s relationship with her brother? Since BabyK cannot extend an invitation to her brother, it becomes the responsibility of KH.
@Amy’s Sis, Yard work can mean mowing, trimming, edging, weeding, raking, which might have been done by TH. Yard work can mean blackberry bush removal and tree trimming, maybe why RSE was hired. Some of these discrepancies, imo, might not be either or, but both, meaning no one lied about it.
I heart you, truly. It’s you. I respect and adore the research and fact based “you”. You seem to have made this more personal, almost as if you take the adverse position in every case. I did not post your last post because I hope to salvage the great things you have brought to insight to BOC for years and posting that would have the opposite effect.
I have an obligation to the work or I am sitting here gossipping about gruesome crap and that will never be. Trying to moderate to that standard, and have to.
B