Caylee/Casey Anthony Case: New Discovery Released
Orlando, FL– The State Attorney’s Office is set to release 1000 additional pages of discovery this morning of previously unseen evidence in the case against Casey Anthony for the murder of her daughter, Caylee Marie.
Sources within the SA’s office speaking on the condition of anonymity to blinkoncrime.com say the new information is largely FBI reports.
The release comes on the heels of new motions filed by the defense this week.
Jose Baez and Andrea Lyon, defense counsel for Casey Anthony filed a motion alleging double jeopardy violation in the upcoming fraud case, a reply to the states motion to preclude death procedures and yet another motion to dismiss. A hearing date has not yet been set by Judge Strickland’s office.
blinkoncrime.com will be posting the latest round of discovery as soon as it becomes available. Please check back for updates.
First Set of Documents DNA Evidence FBI Emails Test on Knife found in Car
…….I am still reading Cindy’s and Lee’s depos……….
I need to read faster……….
Blink I am looking forward to what we will be able to read in these new docs. Thank you so much for always being on top of this case. I always look forward to any tidbits you throw out at us.
Thank you Thank you Thank you!!
Off topic - I checked out your site at 6:15 am CT this morning. This new post says you put it up at 9:24 am on 11/06/09. What time zone are you in? I thought you were east coast = EST. Even with the time change last weekend, I am confused! lol
Even better ~ wftv is reporting that 2100 pages have been released. Lots of quality reading for this weekend.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/15084977/Forensic-Entymology-Report
Okay,,, I saw the first page, and there is no way in my mind that
George or Cindy did not know their was a dead body in this car! So
sad. So very sad. Shame on them!
Blink there was a hair with a root in the samples sent for the entymology analysis. I wonder if we will see those results in this doc dump.
Plus MANY coffin flys in the trunk.
At 2100 pages, and probably the last dump before depos in the fraud case, I would say yes.
B
Blink, I brought my assignment over from the last page.
Blink, although I am tardy, I have searched around, and I’ll use a quote from WESH’s Bob Kealing when confronted with the fingerprint question, he responded, “It is not going to be good for the defense”. So I will say yes, her fingerprints were found on the tape. Do I get extra credit, or do I stay after class? (hopefully not the latter!….nervously smiling)…
I have been following this case from the start of August 2008 and have been trying to keep up as much as possible, but am having trouble going back to find docs I want to re-read. Do any of you know if there is ONE site with all the Docs? I like WFTV but with the exception of a few things, anything before 1/2009 is not there. It would be nice to have one page with a comprehensive list of EVERYTHING that has been released to date. Thanks!!
Thanks Blink! and WSH, you are too fast for the regular media!!
(gotta love the support of Blink et al!!)
Todd, just between you and me– shh– don’t tell Blink, but go dig out what Blink’s said about that ALL along too
This is so what I’ve been waiting for…
Let me state that I’ve had the pleasure of meeting both Dr. Haskell and Dr. Williams during my time in Lafayette (home of Purdue). I admired them before but, now, well…
Page 23 of 30 from the entymology reports clearly states the evidence indicates the presence of the bugs being “colonized” in that location earlier than October-December…so, that should pretty much clear up the question of Casey’s inability to put the baby in that location.
I feel simultaneously sad (for Caylee of course) and estatic that there is compelling evidence in this case that will lead to conviction. Dear Blinkie, it’s a good day.
There she is! I had forgotten that DJ, although not sure how, your the only person I know with those levels of study. I think as we learn more, this is more and more “your field.”
Dear DJ- IT IS a good DAY!
Miss ya
Blinkie
I want to see some analysis on the adipocere. The evidence of the coffin flies can be argued that the species were attracted to the garbage in the trunk. (see last thread). However, I haven’t come across anything that would remotely suggest that a food source could have created adipocere.
I can’t imagine reading these types of reports, if it had been a relative of mine. I can look at this as a “case”,and it still bothers me, but I don’t know how the Anthonys could stomach this knowledge.
Well, I’d marry Dr. Haskell- if well, I wasn’t already married and he didn’t have all those pig carcasses around his home office/farm. Seriously though- he is TOP of the field!!!! Thanks WSH for the bug report!
Also- anyone notice the witnesses for the defense are only high priced “experts”? No character witnesses so far..hmmm.
I KNEW that the maggots were overlooked in the early media as significant– Dr. Neal H. Haskell’s first half paragraph on his Summary of Conclusions, dated August 28, 2008 supports this and how!
Now I’m going to continue to read to find the Maggotis Pizzerius Saltus Maximus and how it was also attracted to the trunk crime scene. I wonder how many of the PIzzerius adults were found, how many maggots, and just my own wonderment– HOW do they support themselves on rubbery salty cheezy toppings? Salt is a food curing agent and pizza toppings are laden with salt! Very special, maybe rare species just in the Anthony trash bags with pizza boxes.
Kleat: now I recall some of blink’s past comments, one in particular, something to the effect of ‘there are fingerprints, folks’…..that said, now I must return to the extra large ginko biloba milkshake
Todd, did Kealing say that in regards to this doc. dump?
From the garbage bag in the trunk to beneath the soil where Caylee’s remains were found is evidence of Human decomposition. It’s all over now for Casey, IMO, there is nothing left to dispute.
There were advanced fluids in the car indicating 4 days or more– minimum date of 20th (if George’s date seeing Caylee at noon 16th is correct– 21st if he’s confusing his days as for the DDD foodtv show on the Sunday before Father’s Day as the last time he saw Casey leave with Caylee vs the next day.)
This report summary is more graphic than the autopsy technical report that the Anthony’s did not want published. They should have tried to stop this report. I hope that Brad prepared them well for today’s release.
Defense is going to go after Vincent’s bench notes again– what did he note, then transfer to computer, then toss his paper notes? But they are going to have to reach far to make this attack work, like a wild speculative scenario were there were two identical Pontiac Sunfire 2 door 1998 white cars in the garage at the same time, with identical pizza boxes in bags in the back — and propose some mixup. They need to get their fiction writer thinking caps on.
Can see ms K-B getting ready for this fight.
See, ETOH is mentioned again– for a real lab use this time. Alcohol to preserve, not what kids call Etoh or whatever the discussion was some threads ago.
Bees, here is the link from where I found it.
http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/02/was_casey_anthonys_fingerprint.php
Thanks Blink for always having amazing revelations. What does the DNA evidence mean?
As far as the trunk evidence, be prepared for poor Jesse Grund to get run over by the bus again. It doesn’t hold up under scrutiny but that has never deterred them.
How so?
B
Jesse alledgedly had keys to Casey’s car. They can’t refute the evidence but they can say that “someone” else put Caylee’s body in the trunk.. I think it can be proven otherwise but what other explanation will the defense have? I am sure before the day is out, they will be on here testing their theories.
I know Cindy said the knife was hers, I dont buy it. They never collected the set from her and she blathered on about it being put away and rarely used. Who’s taking bets that was an engagement gift for Casey/Jessie or tied to him in some way.
B
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Anyone find hair analysis yet?
Also, if anyone wants to take a stab at the Gatorade bottle & syringe, I’d appreciate it. I’d like to read a summary vs raw data.
Blink– didn’t someone here post as Justice4Caylee? Some activity of the Anthony camp posting LIVE at WESH’s page: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Casey_Anthony_Documents_Nov_6_2009 under new nicknames.
Like I’ve said about one gazillion times, the only defense is to pay off a juror or threaten a member of a juror’s family. Anyone want to jump on my bandwagon? How is this going to trial?
Sounds reasonable, Blink– the knife being used to tie someone else in to the crime. It does look like more than an everyday ‘worn’ cutlery knife. Maybe that can be tracked back to a source of purchase.
From the Orlando Sentinel:
Casey Anthony case: syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform
FBI lab tests detected the dangerous chemical in evidence from the area where Caylee Marie’s remains were found.
(Hum theme from taps)
B
FBI lab technicians detected traces of chloroform inside a sports drink and plastic syringe recovered near the scene where the remains of Caylee Marie were found in 2008.
I think this says it all. NO?
Casey Anthony case: syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform
FBI lab tests detected the dangerous chemical in evidence from the area where Caylee Marie’s remains were found.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-casey-anthony-documents-20091106,0,4673834.story
She’s toast — plea deal coming……
Blink 100% agree. Knife is to pointed to be regular butter knife from regular set.
On WESH comments, ‘jfreakjb’ (Jose, is that you??!) posted a comment two comments below the ‘knife photo’.
Didn’t Jose Baez have a similar formed email nickname in the emails of the previous doc dump? Not the same word, but the same ‘format’ using his initials.
Whoever wrote this is knocking the prosecutions misuse of the media to benefit their case against Casey:
———————
jfreakjb wrote:
“Seems to me, that the case against Casey is looking daunting for the prosecution. I personally feel Casey is guilty, however, the evidence is insufficient to convict. It’s all circumstantial, and while you don’t need a smoking gun to convict, it’s going to be tough.
I personally would not convict Casey based on the evidence right now I believe the prosecution is using the media to help their case, which is wrong and unjust.
All the evidence gathered at the moment can have a rational explanation, it’s just that the facts really look bad for Casey, but still not enough to convict.”
———————–
I’m sure jfreakjb is reading here today too, maybe will respond to a question from me regarding the use of the media by Jose Baez and his team, the Anthony’s and Brad and press conferences, all the time giving ‘OPINION’ for the defense.
These ‘prosecution documents’ are clearly just scientific reports, unbiased to one side or the other in themselves. No scientist or FBI agent has put their face in front of the camera’s to give an opinion of guilt or innocence, or weight of the evidence being this or that, no OSCO investigator either.
But the defense surely takes every opportunity to spin the ‘facts’ as their ‘feelings’ or opinions to taint the jury pool.
Change the Florida laws, don’t knock the prosecution for giving these documents to the defense and then the media asking for copies as the law allows.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/15084977/Forensic-Entymology-Report
By the time I was on page 8 of this report, my eyes were already watering. I can only hope God was there with her. I feel so, so sad.
#27 _Kleat
How about this one? Even has “jb” in the end of the name, unless it’s just a troll:
Seems to me, that the case against Casey is looking daunting for the prosecution. I personally feel Casey is guilty, however, the evidence is insufficient to convict. It’s all circumstantial, and while you don’t need a smoking gun to convict, it’s going to be tough. I personally would not convict Casey based on the evidence, right now I believe the prosecution is using the media to help their case, which is wrong and unjust. All the evidence gathered at the moment can have a rational explanation, it’s just that the facts really look bad for Casey, but still not enough to convict.
by jfreakjb
As a nit-picking point: THESE terms should send George off the deep end…remember in Morgan’s office he blew up at the term “remains”….now we have the scientific term via the entamologist Dr. Haskell…”Thus, any decomposing carrion would have been most likely removed between June 20 and June 27, 2008.”
from page 1
After reading the above post #33 and the syringe data, I don’t want her to plea. I would like to see this to the end and have her face a jury. A life sentence is to leniant.
Is it possible she stole the syringe on one of her many visits to Cindy’s work place? Hmmmm… What perplexes me are the traces of testosterone found with it
Not me, who’s on roids she knows? This is a frame job attempt, imo.
B
Is the testosterone a ‘link’ to someone else?
A report generated in June and labeled “Summary of results” by Dr. Michael Rickenbach of the FBI indicates chemical tests show the syringe contained chloroform, testosterone, ethanol and water.
Chloroform also is the byproduct of contact between chorine used in swimming pools and skin, sweat or urine. Commercially, it is used in refrigeration.
The FBI reports released today also show a doll recovered from Casey Anthony’s white 1998 Pontiac Sunfire GT had “faint yellowish stains” on the front and back of its white clothing. The June lab tests showed slight traces of chloroform residue on the doll, according to Rickenbach.
But a later test in July indicated no chloroform on the doll. Other reports show the yellow stains may have been urine.
Where’s the testosterone in the bottle from, I wonder? Did George use steroid injections on his bad knee?
Kleat
Our posts came at the same time. Great minds think alike!
In the docs about the duct tape, it says that the tape on Caylee was consistent with the tape on George’s gas can and most likely came from the same batch.
I just wonder how long the A’s knew all of this information. Because I’m finishing up reading George’s depo, and he is adamant that he did NOT put that tape on that gas can. He can’t say it enough in the depo. In no way does he want to be associated with the tape on that can!
#39 Brilliant theory Suz! Nurse Cindy would be able to answer.
roids!!! that was my next question because look at the testosterone in BOTH the syringe AND the contents of the Gatorade bottle. (plus those other nasties in there, oils of some possible sort and odour consistent with cleaning product).
Where would the testosterone come from? Steroids is the first thought because testosterone is a steroid. Who would be body building– what steroids would be consistent with those found in these liquids? Where would a person keep their steroid supply? Openly in a bathroom cabinet or drawer perhaps? It’s not illegal, so why not. Casey visited Jesse for a ’shower’ and was in his bathroom for a time, unmonitored.
Maybe from her trainer? Didnt we establish she was working towards her personal training cert? Wonder where?
B
suz…I had a knee replaced and any injections like that were done strictly in the doctor’s office
urine? with chloroform? First test with chloroform results, then later not? Could the chloroform have dissipated or been undetectable from dilution maybe, by the second test, and could the chloroform have been in the urine, vs distinct from the urine?
#44. Did you also notice how many times GA kept talking about how the tape was applied wrong, how he would have cut a precise round piece to cover the small round hole. Who does that?
If there’s chloroform in the bottle with the syringe, are there fingerprints as well?
When the State reads here (and I know they do), I’d like to suggest that they do a cell phone “ping” check on the Grunds to stop the nonsense (I mean) defense argument that is coming.
I do not think they aren’t anticipating that, but can I ask what in particular today’s dump makes this top of mind for you?
B
I was reading the responses to the chloroform evidence and look what I found! NOT MY POST!
“Really 2009, yes the car is evidence, but who all had access to that car? All I’m saying is that all the evidence is linked to the family home, not just Casey. I’m not defending her at all, but I’m having a tough time connecting all the evidence JUST to Casey. I believe the car did not belong to her, but to Cindy, Casey just used it. It’s an overwhelming amount of evidence/discovery, whatever you want to call it and I am not an expert by any means. I don’t know exactly what it takes to convict on murder one charges or for death penalty. That’s why I don’t know if it will apply in this case or not.
xwgatorfan1 (11/06/2009, 11:29 AM )”
Why the syringe though? Why wouldn’t she have just put the cholorform on a rag? You don’t think she injected her with this do you? A small syringe like shown would take many refills to squirt any decent amount on a rag.
With the chloraform in the syringe, I hope LE takes it to Cindy and asks her if she wants to “revise” her obstructionist statement that she was searching for chloraphyll on the computer
Yeah, WSH!!
Q238 and Q238.1 Gatorade bottle and liquid contents respectively
Q240, the plastic containing the disposable syringe with liquid contents Q240.1.1
The Q239 cardboard rolls– could this be an original container for mailing or supplying (as protection container) for the syringe kit? OR, it could simply be a roll from toilet paper, to put the syringe kit into to slip into a bag or purse, so it’s not broken (or seen) during transport from say a room from which it was taken– simple container maybe found in a bathroom trash bin. Those would be quite easy to identify as from bathroom tissue by their size and how they are manufactured, they are not so sturdy as other cardboard rolls and could delaminate easily in moist conditions.
Could it be the core to the duct tape?
Let me say this, reserving the right to change my mind, I am starting to believe Annie Downing- she had help.
B
Takes it to her…meaning the discovered truth…not the actual syringe
SEROLOGY:
Page 6 # 31 PDF_serology testing: positive for blood , negative for semen on the letters and swatch of closing, WTF?
Page7 #31 PDF_serology: positive for blood, negative for semen on the Whinnie the Pooh blanket, second WTF?
Have I read this correctly?
clothing, not ‘closing’ on my post serology post
My first guess about the roids, would be someone working out to build strength, build muscles for appearance maybe also, a young male wanting nice upper body physique as well as strength. Casey visited Jesse and his bathroom, had access to anything stored there. She had lived with the man, knew if he was on steroids at that time, or could have learned about his use of them later on, maybe to help him in his physical strengthening too, for the police academy training.
(maybe this could be used to explain Jesse’s possible temper– roids– Cindy made sure to discuss the ‘temper’ and him flaring up at her in defense of Casey). But Casey also visited other males homes, and could have access to their bathroom ‘innocently’ during these visits too.
‘Iyyyyy…..Kill …. Jesseeeee….’ (was someone really teaching Caylee to say these words on a video??)
CindeefromWisconsin is the resident bathroom roll making expert– she should maybe offer some expertise after going through the info on those ‘cardboard rolls’. I’ll await her expert info…
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-pictures-casey-anthony-evidence-110609,0,6944489.photogallery
What is # 9 a photo of?
Patio rug that lit up under ALS, but no proteins detected
B
(the roll could also be from paper towels used up– the roll would be available to Casey– a match for this cardboard core support might match the brand found in Casey’s trunk with some in the Anthony garage or home. Casey could have just found the cardboard roll a convenient way to carry the syringe without damaging the packaging or breaking off the needle portion. OR, since the cardboard was found inside the Gatorade bottle, it may be deliberately put there to link to someone else’s bathroom.)
Whoa Blink: so you think the bottle and syringe were planted to point at someone other than Casey? Injected testosterone is almost always a gym thing. I remember several of Casey’s male friends having some blemishes on their photos. It would be so nice if a Casey fingerprint were found on some part of the Cool blue bottle or the plastic incasing the syringe. Right offhand, I can’t remember any of the frequently photographed friends having the injected steroid physique. Was George or Lee a gym rat?
Earlier, you mentioned that you thought it was possible that items were added to the dump site in attempts to confuse the dating. Would the gatorade bottle be part of the planned confusion?
Without photos from a wide angle of the original crime scene, I just can’t say. I have to say, and this may be knee-jerk, but why would someone take the time to stage the body (imo) and then plunk down the murder weapon right next to it, cap on, enclosed, away from the elements.
B
In the OS article is says that testosterone is used to prevent or reduce osteoporosis, among other diseases. Could it have come from the Anthony home?
Remember the plastic bag Cindy was carrying when she first went in for the State’s depo? A lot of people thought that bag contained her bottles of meds. Do you think that the State would ask her to bring her meds to the depo and if so, could this be the reason? My intention is not to start a rumor, but I am very curious about this.
I can’t open the knife link- says file damaged. Does it say anything interesting?
Great post as always Blink and All. Blink can you please help Dave again and link his Vote page. TYIA Vote daily all Bloggers united to give Caylee a Stronger Voice…TYTYTY
I think the presence of testosterone in the syringe/needle lets Cindy and George off the hook. There is a patch available for old folks, if necessary. Other forms of steroids would be more useful for common conditions. So, would one of the cop boyfriends have been a gym rat? Serious gym rat, I mean.
I don’t remember that Casey was involved in training to be a fitness trainer. Does anybody have any sources for that?
joypath, I have left some questions for you on adipocere on the last thread: Roy Kronk.
Would you please read and bring your response to this thread?
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2009/11/5/more_casey_anthony_documents_coming.html?refresh=1
In case others aren’t working for you.
There are differences in the contents of the Gatorade bottle and the syringe– visually one is yellowish, the other whitish. The syringe contents are noticed as immiscible liquids, this is not noted with the Gatorade liquid– the liquid is not immiscible. This is an important difference.
Also, the other very important difference noted from simple testing, is the pH.
IF the Gatorade liquid was the source of say, the testosterones/steroids also found in the syringe, something else has been added to what was found in the syringe to change the pH from very low range of 5, to a pH of 8.
According to general info from Medline Plus, urine has a pH ranging from about 5 to around 8. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003583.htm
So adding urine as found in Q241, was not what caused the pH change from the Gatorade bottle contents, to 8 in the yellowish IMMISCIBLE, syringe contents. We also know that the ‘dark yellowish’ liquid smelled like urine, contained water, but NO Chloroform detected, but POSSIBLE Chloroform RESIDUE.
Something else caused the pH shift to more alkaline. What is alkaline? (soaps, cleaning products).
Clues might be in the differences of the two liquid contents and what also is available to raise the pH from very acidic Gatorade contents, to neutral– would need to be something that is an alkaline pH or that would not happen.
But adding dark yellowish liquid consistent with urine, that possible had chloroform in it at one time, to the Gatorade liquid, then drawing that liquid into the syringe, would explain the change to ‘yellowish’ in the syringe, but would not explain what oil like immesible materials were added.
The pH of urine– ok, so when it’s ‘old’, it is acted on by bacteria and forms ammonia. So maybe that would help raise the pH of the Gatorade liquid, and might also explain independently, the ‘cleaning product’ odour. (but doesn’t explain it all– an observer could easily say the syringe liquid smelled like ammonia instead of ‘cleaning product’).
Was the yellow of the syringe liquid from the addition of that ‘urine’ Q241, or was it from a yellow coloured cleaning product? Or both? And WHY the cleaning product/soaps?
What was it there for in these sealed container liquids?
‘Murky’ is also a clue to a mixture– what happens when certain liquids are mixed– like water and a some liquid cleaning products when they are diluted for use? That goes murky– just an example.
This is just noted from the page 53 results. Wonder what the conclusion page will say…
Kleat, where is that link to the rolls. But from your post above. Inside the rolls of bath tissue and paper toweling rolls from the company I worked for there is a stamp of where the tissue was wound onto that roll and date it was done. A bath tissue roll is 4″ long and a papertowel roll is 10-12″ long. If it were a paper towel roll they would be able to tell if that cardboard was cut to a different size, because all bath tissue is 4″ to fit your bathroom holder. The papertowel roll is a bit sturdier than bathtissue because of the width of the product and the amount being rolled and the speed of the machine.
(and by December, the urine would be very old and likely degraded to ammonia with a resulting much higher pH)
One thing, how would the urine be collected from someone without them knowing about it? Why do the test results not say anything about a test for steroids? Would steroids hold up to testing in urine when it’s so degraded?
Maybe an athlete on drug testing is using someone else’s urine?
B
Blink, with all the incriminating evidence just (& previously) released, I am absolutely shocked the defense hasn’t tried to arrange a plea deal yet. Maybe that imbecile, Casey, won’t consider it.
Do you think the prosecution has any intention of offering a plea?
With a case like this, if I were prosecuting, I think I’d be reluctant to enter into one. It’s a slam-dunk guilty verdict. So is the death penalty. Why plead this out?
I dont think the prosecution is or will be in a position to offer a plea. Why is the defense going forward? Because they work for Casey who does not even admit to herself she did this, or frankly, someone did help her at least in the “after the fact” and they believe they can express culpability to the extent it will exonerate their client. You know, daydreaming.
B
limonene, terpineol, and fatty alcohol (all possible)– could these be in lemon scented cleaning products? And could this also explain the terpineol, not from ‘pine needles’ or plants directly, but from a Pinesol type cleaning product? What about the p-Cresol possibility in the mix. Pinesol?
This has always been my thought, it is in alot more products than you think.. “simple green”
B
Whose hair sample was Q59?
http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21540377.pdf
****Benzos and ketamine were detected there.
Minor deviation noted from standard protocol in analysis noted.
I think it said child, in sample on one of the forms. Can anyone confirm if this was Caylee’s hair, or was it Casey’s?
I thought it said the negative control was child?
B
http://www.nationalenquirer.com/casey_anthony_caylee_steven_soderbergh_tot_mom/celebrity/67623
Casey Anthony EXPLODED when she learned a play based on the death of her daughter Caylee is opening, demanding her lawyer sue to stop it.
thanks, CindeefromWS!! Interesting about the stamp inside the roll–
FRom around pg 44 on: http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/1106/21541051.pdf
These contents were apparently found inside the ‘Disney bag’. I haven’t read through yet– just noticed the rolls “two cardboard rolls (Q239)… “syringe was found within the cardboard rolls…” (pg 45).
See the photo of Q239 of the two cardboard rolls– they appear as they could be bathroom tissue rolls, but there is no scale included in that image. But they do appear to be the proportion of a toilet roll vs a longer paper towel roll core. And they appear to be formed like a bath roll.
chica, that’s the National Enquirer though– what will they report next year– Caylee sighting on the moon? (not that this couldn’t be based on a degree of truth– but who knows– it’s sensationalism) But it’s also got some consistency with how Casey has been ‘annoyed’ about the media in the past. But considering the media source… well, that might be a good headline to sell more stuff, and Casey’s own lawyers could suggest that, or Cindy could suggest that to media to get more hype in the case going. )
Blink, in countries like some Scandinavian countries (Denmark/Sweden– can’t remember) have labelling requirements for household cleaning products as so many contain carcinogens. But in North America, no labelling of carcinogens nor any contents required– what the public doesn’t know was exposed in a ‘MarketPlace’ television program– investigating consumer products, everything from laundry detergents to liquid cleaners– we have no way of knowing if they have carcinogens (and most do), so no way of knowing other contents either, from a label. Industry doesn’t want us to know.
Actually Kleat, I dont think you mean carcinogens unless in that way you mean whatever chemical we are referring to is flammable. In the US MSDS sheets are required to acknowled certain identifiable chemicals, even if under patent to an extent. Your correct many do not list specifics unless required by law, but most require label warnings, etc.
B
Could the syringe be from Cindy’s work? Think about it and what she did as a nurse. A lot of injections being given in a facitlity like that.
From the googled book that WSH posted on the previous thread…. It could take from 10-14 days for a body to completely skeletonize in vary warm weather and high humidity. Poor little Caylee’s body didn’t have a chance of being found in anything resembling normalcy.
You’all do know there’s a big shooting unfolding in downtown Orlando right?
Yes, horrible. Stay Safe
B
I honestly don’t think anyone helped Casey after the fact, Blink. Pathological narcissism, such as Casey’s, is fairly rare. Besides, Caylee was such a beautiful, well-loved child; I can’t see anyone close to them helping Casey throw that child out like trash. With all the pressure in this case, if someone had helped her dispose of Caylee’s body and cover up her crime, they’d have surfaced by now. The pisspoor cover-up doesn’t demonstrate much intelligence on the part of the perpetrator (or abettor, if one exists).
Blink, a gym establishment where someone might train, someone might leave a urine sample around at the request of a nice smile, or have testing samples around to be stolen from a locker left open…
Now, people generally buy their toilet tissue rolls from retailers, some low grade ones, some recycled ones (oh and there was a white sample of something, maybe toilet paper also found with these items), but if a gym, wouldn’t they be buying more commercial type single ply, cheaper and much longer rolls? VS the average home type softer, higher quality, smaller rolls?
Maybe these rolls can determine which was the likely source.
I have a question. Was there mention of a needle or just a syringe. Syringes are a common way for small children to take prescription meds and OTC meds.
The gatorade bottle and shringe/needle
In one of the last doc dumps, Cindy stated that Amy and Ricardo I think were heroin addicts.( emails w Dom Casey maybe) Am I remembering this wrong? If I’m right, she or Casey could still be trying to pin the evidence to others.
cindeefromW, maybe she could steal one, but syringes are so easily available to people who can access drugs, what type was this syringe more typical of– narcotics use or other uses that a care home might stock?
PamVA, go to http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/1106/21541051.pdf and see the pics on page 49. Clearly a needle with it’s plastic sleeve, attached to the syringe. So maybe the kit had the whole kit n’ kaboodle in the pack, ready to use, vs the parts.
Okay, I had posted previously that there was a positive for benzos and ketamine, (apparently this was conducted on the ‘clump of hair’.) But if you go back to the PDF just prior, it says none detected, so I am confused.
# 15 and # 16 PDFs on CFnews link posted above
Anyone?
Blink, don’t post this if you think it is inappropriate. I just want you to see where I’m coming from here’s a sample from last night.
From #51
I hate to admit this but I read some of the other blogs because I don’t think too many of the Anthony supporters post here. The theories are completely preposterous but the recurring theme is somebody else did it. The co-conspirators are Tim Miller, Jesse and Reverend Grund, Roy Kronk, Amy, Tony and Ricardo. With my own conspiracy theory mentality, I think the defense is posting to sway the jury pool or keeping up public interest to line their own pockets.
“You must not have been around when Baez requested the court to let Casey “travel to places of interest” so she could do that very thing?
10/3/2008
MOTION FOR ALLOWING DEFENDANT TO TRAVEL TO PLACES OF INTEREST
10/10/2008
ORDER ATTY JONATHAN KASEN ENTERED NOTICE OF APPEARANCE AS CO-COUNSEL FOR CASEY ANTHONY, MOTION TO SEAL TAKEN UNDER ADVISEMENT, MOTION FOR ALLOWING DEF TO TRAVEL TO PLACES OF INTEREST IS TAKEN UNDER ADVISEMENT, MOTION TO INSPECT, TEST AND PHOTOGRAPH EVIDENCE HELD BY SA GRANTED AS STATED ON RECORD, MOTION TO COMPEL RESULTS OF FORENSIC TESTING IS GRANTED
10/16/2008
ORDER ON DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO SEAL AND MOTION FOR ALLOWING DEFENDANT TO TRAVEL TO PLACE OF INTEREST MOTIONS ARE MOOT.
Southern Comfort wrote:
Not the empty apartment but the place and person she made these arrangements with.
Yeah, that was kind of the point. The government denied her that ability once the State somehow miraculously got a ham sandwich indictment to nibble on for a while. Nice huh?
Southern Comfort wrote:
PS…hard to get a child back when they are dead correct?
It’s hard to get a stolen child back period.
Harder yet I imagine when you have nothing and the forces against you have infinite resources.
Still, Casey told the real perp she forgave them and asked them to just bring Caylee back.
IMO-They did.
They left her in the woods, by her house, with items from her house. AFTER Casey was sitting in the jail, imo. ”
Nope, posting, I think it is relevant and we will see plenty of this. I am a firm believe we will see no surprises in this defense, they are mock jurying the public daily.
B
Yes, Blink– the warnings are on the labels, but I’ll look up the program, IIRC, the woman journalist/cancer survivor, did the investigative reports, and carcinogens were her concern as per lack of warnings. I think MSDS reports may protect the mfg re: proprietary info). This investigation included powdered laundry detergents– like Sunlight, I will have to look up to see if that show is in an archives somewhere. Not thinking of flashpoints and such.
Roids + Usage = Acne on the back. Just sayin fwiw.
Not necessarily Kleat. Many households will buy the cheaper brand bath tissue that is one ply because of the price difference vs number of sheets. Especially homes with a lot of kids they think that the brand with 1000 sheets is the bargain.
Whatever this means, it points to someone who has done a LOT of detail covering and work. Someone kills a child then all this is packed and found ‘with’??? That is extreme.
I remember Casey saying on Oct 14th to SB and or others, that even if they had ‘bucketloads’ of evidence downstairs, she didn’t do it. How would she know about all these things to be found– lots of things, so much detail included that some stranger murderer, not acting at that swamp scene, would put there. This was not some obscure rural woods camp spot, where everything was dumped with a body, or the act committed and everything left there. All neatly packaged– bucketloads of stuff in these 10000 plus pages, comes to mind!
#83_Pam The report says the “needle” is attached.
I have a question for joypath, or other scientists: How sophisticated is DNA analysis today for other species? Is there a way to analyze and compare the genetic make up of the coffin flies in the trunk to those found with the remains? Are there great differences between one family line of flies vs. another?
#71 Kleat Just a thought, but I recall cindy being questioned in her last depo about whether or not she kept ammonia in her house or used it mixed in water.
WHY would someone help to kill Caylee? Why would someone allow themselves to be dragged into a ‘I killed Caylee so let me convince you to help me create a detailed coverup with so many many details, from so many places, and help me put body somewhere and move it, and help me point the finger at someone else, but not you (the helper) of course, and help me get to a place near home so I can have her close to find when I get out, help me avoid being seen by protestors, police, wanna be searchers and psychics?
Overboard– that’s what this is. Question is, is it many various sources of materials to implicate many others a little bit to confuse things, or is there a single thread to one person in this. Seems someone is leaving it up to others to decide who the ‘help’ was and who the perp was.
#49, Cindee: Who else would mention 50,000 times that he did NOT put that tape on the gas can in such a messy fashion. (Of course, I’m exaggerating, but still…)
can we tell if its an insulin syringe?
I read briefly over at WS. Someone there brought up the possibility of the needle being part of perhaps an inkjet printer kit. Instead of replacing the cartridge, you insert the ink directly into it via a needle to deliver replacements.
Chris Stutz says (691) casey told him she was working out alot so she could become a personal trainer. http://humbleopinion.net76.net/interviews/chrstopher%20stutz.pdf
This always struck me as one of Casey’s tall tales. She once used the gym at Tony’s apt complex, and she jogged, but I sincerely doubt she really belonged to a gym. (but…who knows?)
Blink Biscuit!!
Propionate steroid injections (oil based) are used for one thing..
B
That syringe kit should be traceable by the lot number. I wonder if LE has that info already?
Blink …
“Let me say this, reserving the right to change my mind, I am starting to believe Annie Downing- she had help.
B”
Yeah, B … and I bet you the bank Annie at the very least has some idea of who that “helper” might have been, if in fact there actually was one.
#63 dddeerma
“Right offhand, I can’t remember any of the frequently photographed friends having the injected steroid physique. Was George or Lee a gym rat?”
Actually, the one guy with his one arm around Casey (standing from behind) with the word “K-I-L-L” on his right knuckles looks like he could have a steroid-injected physique, however, I have only ever been able to find that one photo of him and have no idea to this day who he is. Regardless, he has always given me the creeps just looking at that photo. Anyone have any idea who this guy is and what his background might be in relation to Casey???
#89-Kleat
Thanks! I’m at work so I haven’t scoured the docs yet.
Chloroform shows up in urine?
“Blood and urine concentrations of chemical pollutants in the general population.
(snip)
In a group of subjects potentially exposed to industrial solvents, classed as chemical workers, blood benzene, toluene, chloroform and n-hexane were significantly higher than in rural and urban workers. Smokers showed a significantly higher blood concentration than non-smokers for benzene (381 ng/l vs 205 ng/1), toluene (1431 ng/l vs 977 ng/l), and n-hexane (838 ng/l vs 532 ng/l). All or almost all urine samples (100-92%) contained all the compounds except trichloroethylene and tetrachloroethylene, present in 79% and 76% of samples, respectively (table 2). Urinary concentrations of all compounds did not differ significantly between rural and urban workers. Benzene and toluene were significantly higher in in urine of smokers than of non-smokers. Chloroform and n-hexane showed significantly higher urinary than blood values. Excluding acetone, with urinary and blood concentrations in pg/l, chloroform, toluene and n-hexane showed the highest mean concentrations both in blood and in urine.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7885292
Ooh, a Blink biscuit! Bark!!! (wagging)
#93_Kleat
I don’t believe that anyone thinks Casey had help killing Caylee. I think some feel that she had help with the clean-up
kleat
you are right she did it alone and had help cleaning. you know if casey had help she would have snitched them! out already she has no loyalty towards anyone.
If someone helped her, don’t you think she would be singing like a canary? One comment directed to Casey’s mommy dearest is ringing in my ears though, “Don’t worry I haven’t told them anything.”
In regard to the whole syringe debate, unless something has changed since my pregnancy days 5-7 yrs ago, I believe anyone can go into any basic dept store (Target/Wal-Mart) and buy syringes for things like injecting insulin, etc. I haven’t had the chance to read all the docs yet, but doctor’s offices will often give you your 1st “kit” complete with basic info on how to inject yourself, alcohol pads, syringes, etc (everything but the insulin) when you’re 1st diagnosed with diabetes to get you started.
If what James Thompson said about him seeing Casey at some time during the time Caylee was still alive at Wal-Mart with the little bag she didn’t want anyone allegedly see coming out, could that in fact have been what was inside it? A syringe or small starter kit of some sort? I only know about the syringe thing because with both pregancies, I had gestational diabetes and had to take insulin shots my last 3 mths of both and became fairly knowledgeable in that time regarding the supplies. Just speculating, but the whole syringe situation, regardless of what was in it or not makes me really wonder what Casey might have actually have used it for … oh, the horrors going thru my mind right now …
Just now reading the entomology report. However, once I saw the word “blow fly” on the first page, I knew there was advanced decomp in that car.
IMO, the bug report is far more graphic than the autopsy report. Wonder why the Anthonys didn’t try to have this prevented from being released to the public.
Frankly, it makes me sick to my stomach reading the entomology indications. It creates a horrible, albeit unbidden, image of a little child, rotting like a dead dog inside the trunk. All thanks to the selfish, self-obsessed woman who gave birth to her. I refuse to use the word “mother” for Casey Anthony.
Ok, pet supplies, personal care products, INCLUDING laundry, cleaning products–
failure to label these household products about ‘carcinogens’ is excerpted in this episode called ‘Full Update Episode– about a 1/3rd of the way through to half way. (before the Dirty Doctors update at second half of this video)
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2007/03/marketplace_update.html
But there is also another previous episode featuring the cancer and cleaning products– May Burrows on Wendy Mesley’s documentary referenced in this above ‘Update’ episode. The episode seems to be missing– it was called ‘Chasing the Cancer Answer’ docu. by Wendy Mesley on ‘Marketplace’. There’s a link, it doesnt’ work.
For now, only have the short part about the cleaning products shown in a big supermarket cleaning products aisle. Definitely about carginogens, Blink.
Casey would not snitch anyone out - because that would require her to admit guilt.
Haven’t you heard…the nanny did it!
That entomological data report just screams the truth. Wow!! This just sealed it for me. Casey is done!! She’s as good as done…she’s going to be dead soon. Death Penalty is coming for her. YESSS!! RIP Caylee, your going to get justice sweet baby.
Great minds Chica!
# 108_suz
I did run across similar stuff in the past. I am getting tired of reading, so in other documents, have you noticed whether there were any fingerprints recovered from the bottle, or needle?
Thanks suz: and blink gave you a biscuit too. So this blend of testosterone in a syringe is possibly meant to point at someone else? Or is it just that Casey got tired of hauling around all this smelly stuff and dumped it all at once? Wonder why she didn’t dump the trash bag from Tony L’s that had grave wax in it? This might mean that she dumped the remains and left the car at Amscot very close together in time. If she had continued to drive around, she would have had to do something (???) more about the smell.
Casey was so careful to keep all her actions hidden from other people that I am still having trouble seeing her with an accomplice, unless we mean that as an after the fact of the murder accomplice. Someone to help muddy the waters, not someone who helped in the murder itself.
If so, that person has a very great ability to keep their mouth shut. If I had helped Casey somehow, and when all this hit, I would be begging LE to let me tell my story.
westsidehudson, I read your link about benzos and ketamine, and could not really understand it either. It is hard for me to imagine Casey giving Caylee drugs that she would probably rather take herself. Both are party drugs in demand. But who knows?
hmm, proprionic steriods, boy do I know little about steroid use. Now, would oil based mean ‘immiscible’?? Presumably not– common sense says that the product would have to be in a form where the oil is emulsified, not separated out. There had to be another source of the ‘oils’– because there were steroids in the GAtorade liquid that was not separated into two parts (immiscible) and then there was the syringe that was observed to be two immiscible, and also had testosterone.
There must be another source of the oils– cleaning products– limonene, oils for fragrance, cleaning etc or there should be two layers– oil and water based in the Gatorade too. Something different in the two sources– what was added, what was different. What caused the difference in pH if not the urine turned to ammonia?
On page 3 of the Forensic Entomology Report (or “entymology” report as the file name says LOL), it states: “1998 white Pontiac Sunfire (owned by mother of missing child)…”
Just wondering if this can, in any way, be a loophole for the defense since technically the car did not belong to Casey–who is the mother of the “missing” child.
I just don’t trust this defense team and feel like they can *object* a report and have it thrown out or discredited because of something so minor (car normally driven by mother vs. car owned by mother).
Westsidehudson, I have not seen anything about prints yet, so I wonder how are they going to link the syringe to Casey?
everyone have a good weekend and do take your breaks!! we all know justice is coming!!
justice23 I do remember that picture. Anybody know who it was? Just think, there may be a gym member somewhere trembling in his shoes that he will be found to have supplied the syringe and possible murder weapon in the Caylee Anthony murder.
That Q241 urine bottle is puzzling too. It did seem to be clean, not found with drugs in it. Why could Casey have needed clean urine?
Carcinogens in common household products (discussion based on the Marketplace revelations and the ‘Cancer Smart Consumer Guide’)– http://leas.ca/CancerSmart-Consumer-Guide.htm
———–
quote:
The easy-to-read booklet goes into comprehensive detail about a vast array of chemicals, such as 2-butoxyethanol–a suspected cardiovascular, developmental, endocrine, liver, kidney, and reproductive toxicant found in products like Fantastic Lemon Scent Cleaner and Tilex Total Bathroom Multipurpose Cleaner–and ethoxylated nonylphenol, a suspected endocrine toxicant, which is in Purex Liquid Laundry Detergent and VIP Regular Detergent.
“People really do want to know what’s in common products, and they have a right to know,” Mae Burrows, LEAS’s executive director, said in a phone interview. “People generally have a vague sense of the chemicals in pesticides. But when they look at this book, they’re shocked to find out that there are known human carcinogens in all these other products.”
In Canada, Burrows explained, manufacturers do not have to label carcinogens on their products. In some states, like California, and in the European Union, however, such labelling is mandatory. Furthermore, in Europe, if manufacturers are unsure whether or not certain ingredients are harmful to human health, they are required to do tests to find out.
——-
Unquote
Gosh darn that Gatorade bottle is in good condition. That label is in good shape for being out in the elements from June to December. Planted right before the “discovery” in my opinion of course.
Was it in the digney bag, correct?
B
Besides steroid use there are other reasons to have testosterone available for use.
I found a site that lists some of the conditions/uses for medications that use testosterone as a treatment
http://www.revolutionhealth.com/drugs-treatments/testosterone
i am thinking that if she had help it was lee because of the way they high fived eachother, etc. I think he is as maladjusted as Casey and would have and could have put his feeling for Caylee aside to help his sister with the body, etc. No references for this other than the strange high five thing etc. Am I totally in left field here?
The FBI labs will have to rely on testing and comparing known Anthony source household cleaners, or those that might have been taken from other households that Casey had access to, if the USA is like Canada, these cleaners are protected in their labeling of ingredients unless it’s going to blow up in your face or burst into flame. Unless the FBI can get proprietary information from the makers of certain Anthony products, those that contain the chemicals that they found.
Quote: http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/pre-2007/files/home/cleaners/index.html
“It is very seductive to try and get the best cleaning product out there that will actually do the job.”
And the advertising for those products addresses that feeling. The come-on to parents is full of babies and young children looking adorable — and vulnerable. It’s a parent’s job to keep them free from germs. Last year, Canadians spent more than $275 million on household cleaning products.
Not required to disclose ingredients
Kathy Cooper — a senior researcher with the Canadian Environmental Law Association — says there’s a lot we don’t know about the chemicals in our cleaners. Companies are not required to tell us.
“For cleaning products in particular, the only thing the label will tell you is whether it is seriously toxic…if you swallow it or get it in your eye, or will the container blow up…but you don’t have any information about…long term toxicity,” Cooper told Marketplace.
If you look at the label of your favourite floor cleaner or furniture polish, you won’t see much in the way of ingredients. That’s because companies are protected by trade secrets. If you do see an ingredient, it’s because it could blow up or poison you. Many other chemicals are not even listed.
“If you had the kind of labelling laws that they have in Europe, where it would tell you that ‘this product contains something that may cause cancer’ and another similar product that does the same job doesn’t, you might not buy the product that contains the carcinogen,” said Larry Stoffman an international expert on chemical hazards information.
________________________
This might be the same in the USA.
The bug reports were so hard to read. I feel so bad for little Caylee.
The bugs tell the story. Thankfully. How can the defense refute this?
Did they release the lab reports on any live bugs? Did I miss this?
#97: WSH: the breakdown of DNA is basically a chemical reaction of proteins, therefore in theoy, capable of application to all species with a helix. In reality: can be done but not usually AND the comparative report would have to be compared to statistical data to make a complete analysis of “parentage”. DNA breakdon has been done on larger members of the animal kingdom, even used in a court case resulting in a conviction (feline furball!) and also used with specific plant DNA resulting in a conviction (species and local specific “tree folliage/pod”)
(and for those with young children, or just concerned about our household cleaning products so we have a choice of choosing one that does not contain a carcinogen, go to that above link and follow the second part of the story, direct link here– http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/pre-2007/files/home/cleaners/index2.html
And on to the next section– discusses vulnerability of children in particular, to these products)
#99 Kleat
Okay, I know this is farfetched without even typing it, but just for the sake of discussion … would it actually be possible (IF there were in fact another accomplice after the fact) that in getting rid of Caylee for Casey’s own demented purposes, and then potentially framing it on this one (or group of) people as it appears Casey is trying to do, that there is someone else who also wants revenge on this same person, hence agreeing to help Casey “after the fact” in order to get revenge on someone else … the same person Casey is actually trying to allegedly set up as the perp? Maybe someone else also has a grudge of some sort against Jesse/Richard Grund, Ricardo, Amy, Tony or whoever as well and agrees to help Casey “kill two birds with one stone” so-to-speak? They both end up getting their own personal revenge for their individual reasons?
That sounds super bizarre even to me, but with this case, I am really starting to wonder if seriously almost anything goes so who really knows? No offense to you Orlandonians, but at least to the casual observe (albeit from a safe distance), Orlando does seem to be a haven for bizarre and violent crimes these days. Hope I didn’t offend anyone with that last statement … seriously. No slam intended … FL in general these days just seems to be a major hotspot for crimes against children from the daily news I read from there. Caylee, Haleigh, Somer, Shannon, the list seems to go on and on and on …
Cindy worked for a sports doctor - if the syringe was taken
at some time, its possible even Casey while visiting Cindy
could have gotten a hold of it - and there was residue
which caused the tests to show testosterone and urine. Its far-fetched
but a lot is far-fetched in this case. I dont believe she had help.
Its also possible that somehow she left the syringe and pumped it full of someones urine that she got from somewhere and left it there
to throw suspicion on someone else.
Unless she’s doing “roids” in the big house, that acne on her back would have been long gone………
Comment by PamVA — November 6, 2009 @ 3:47 pm
Gosh darn that Gatorade bottle is in good condition. That label is in good shape for being out in the elements from June to December. Planted right before the “discovery” in my opinion of course.
Was it in the digney bag, correct?
B
***********
Ah, yes it was. Darn.
Syringes in their little bags are very easy to come by. I cannot believe that even Cindy would drag home a used one with all the different diseases it could be carrying.
I did some very brief research on the testosterone and when one uses a blend of forms, or different forms consecutively, you are able to use less total of the drug and hopefully avoid the side effects. So this means pretty clearly to me that this syringe belonged first to some one who was a serious body builder.
I have never thought that the gatorade bottle/syringe was related to the case. I always figured that it just happened to be trash that washed to the same area.
However, with “the nanny” being a 10(!) and her taking Caylee to various theme parks… I guess it could be planted evidence.
Wow, this site gives me so much to think about!
All I can say right now is I guess Cindy is taking great pride in having on of her most famous utterances proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
There was a dead body in the damned trunk…of her daugher’s car. Her smell was right on target…and we all know Cindy love’s to be proven right.
I hope she is ready to wipe that know-it-all smirk off her face, go somehow, someway, and sit down with her daughter and beg her to plea and keep herself off death row.
The syringe from the bottle does not appear to be an insulin syringe(measured in cc’s vs units), and some fellow nurses need to help me here….the needle itself looks like one of the older recapped one’s that are, to my knowledge, seldom used….IE: is this needle one that once used cannot be reused because of the safety lock that comes out to protect it? If so was it used to draw up the liquid and take off to place the liquid on something?
I have a friend in Home Health and per her the nurses carry a tray with syringes, blood tubes, AND a red biohazard needlebox to dispose all contaminents in. She said she has what we call a dirty needle box in her car with syringes she used last week in it. Since the auto is used to travel to the patient, this tray is in her car trunk at all times she says. Easy with someone with access to the special home health nurses tray of supplys to get a clean or dirty needle from. Does anyone know if Cindy carried one of those trays? Did she actually make visits or sit in the office?
Not that I think the syringe, bottle, or contents are needed to send this murderer down the path she began so coldly and heartlessly…the evidence is so overwhelming in my opinion.
Always knew those paper towels and the maggots had a big story to tell…back to reading I go….
#92 Add Ginette Lucas to the defense’s list of suspects
Forgive typo’s little one has my attention too! I have to steal a moment of computer time while playing with him
Is there anything in the docs that tells us the syringe package, the gatorade bottle, the sprite can, etc. can be traced to Casey Anthony? Or are these just things that were found near the remains?
Yup, the gatorade bottle was in the disney bag. I’m still not 100% sure I get the whole syringe involvement.
Why chloroform in the syringe?? That is bothersome– what sort of noxious concoction was created to inject into the child, or was this just a Casey mish-mash of things brought together to point to steriod user-pizza-eater-stainless-steel (maybe stainless ’steal’) knife owner-anyone-but-her ‘bucketloads’ of evidence?
IF the body were discovered early, maybe this toxic materials plant was to suggest someone poisoned the baby, to cover or explain toxins found in tissues. That wasn’t possible to determine given the state of the remains, but there would have been some chance of body discovery earlier, and maybe Casey was setting up this bottle and syringe with chemical/steroid/chloroform mixes to cover what residue of the same might be found in Caylee’s remains.
“# Comment by suz — November 6, 2009 @ 3:05 pm
Chris Stutz says (691) casey told him she was working out alot so she could become a personal trainer. http://humbleopinion.net76.net//chrstopher%20stutz.pdf
This always struck me as one of Casey’s tall tales. She once used the gym at Tony’s apt complex, and she jogged, but I sincerely doubt she really belonged to a gym. (but…who knows?)
Blink Biscuit!!
Propionate steroid injections (oil based) are used for one thing..
B”
OKAY. Here it goes. Blink, you may remember me mentioning a tiny bit of this a while back.
Chris S. is asthmatic. He states it in his interview. An pre-filled injectible steroid is used to quckly counter asmthma attacks.
LE subpeonaed the records of a phone registered in the name of his mother, if I recall correctly. Don’t know if this was for calls specific to her or if Chris S. was using his mother’s phone at some time. CA interacted and visited with both at their family home on various occasions.
His mother, I believe, may be an MN - Medical Nurse - which is of a much higher standing and level of medical knowledge, training, responsibilities than say an RN. The possibilities of careers for a MN are vast. She may work in the Operating Room, she may teach others in the application of certain drugs and medical-grade chemicals like chloroform. If she is a medical teacher, she may have had some of her teaching supplies in a portable system/attache cases/totes to take to work and bring back home.
There is a possiblity that CA could have had access and opportunity to swipe either a pre-filled syringe containing a steroid drug or medical grade chloroform in a small glass bottle perhaps.
I have been sitting on this theory for a long time, but wanted to see a little more supporting information before posting any theory or potential scenario. Have not read any documents yet, just read the postings here. If I am completely off track with this, someone please post to that.
Another thing, this steroid can be used to enhance sexual awareness, so illegal use for “partying” is a possibility here. GHB comes into play here as well, I believe. I am not sure if use of this steroid can lead to “rage” incidents or not.
Sorry, just to add. The “party” use of steroids could definitely point away from Chris S. and point to several other sources within CA’s “party circle”.
#123_joypath
Many thanks. I figured that I would throw it out there since the defense will say that the flies were attracted to the garbage in the trunk. If there was a way to directly connect all the flies together, knowing that they started out in the trunk that would help. Of course there would have to be a couple of control groups, because who knows how many coffin flies are actually closely related within a small geographical area anyway. I can’t believe I just wrote that.
wsh, maybe jfreakjb will post here, and our question could be answered!! That was a defense posturing post for sure over there at WESH early this morning.
#120_Blink
The gatorade bottle was in the bag.
Sorry again. My words are not coming out right.
Chris S. and a relative (his mother, I believe) may have been the unwitting “source” of pharmaceuticals for CA. CA could have therefore have obtained them by theft for her ultimate illegal use.
77_Blink
I thought it said the negative control was child?
B
You are correct. I am still not sure if there were trace amounts found in those samples or not. The PDF before says no. I don’t know if that was one test, or if there were 2 tests done. Maybe I’ll read it again tomorrow with fresh eyes.
Dose anyone know if Casey went to the doctors office in the months before Caylee went “missing”? Everytime I bring my kids to the Drs we sit it the examination room for 15 mins or so waiting on the Dr. They have those recepticles where they dispose of sharp objects hanging right on the wall. If you wanted to you could reach in there and grab a used needle…
#149_Kleat
“wsh, maybe jfreakjb will post here, and our question could be answered!!”
Yes, but the name will change. LOL
wpgmouse
“The “party” use of steroids ”
Wow, I learn about new subcultures every day. I never knew that testosterone would be a party drug. I have heard of young men using viagra without the medical condition it is usually prescribed for.
I don’t know if I can believe that the Disney bag, the Gatorade bottle, the syringe and cardboard rolls had anything at all to do with the child’s murder/coverup. I think this might, in fact, be some other trash dumped there at some point by some other person. There was plenty of other, unrelated trash in the area. They picked eveything up, they tested everything. Not everything fits in nor is everything collected part of the crime against Caylee. The area has been used as a dump by too many and for too long.
The things that are clearly part of the crime against Caylee include three 9″ long pieces of duct tape that wrapped the child’s skull. So, I tried it on myself. With one 9″ long piece of duct tape. I’ve not had children, and I don’t know how large the skull of a 3 year old child is, but I’m guessing an average canteloupe. On my face, the tape went from earlobe to within 1/4″ of the other earlobe. On the canteloupe, it went 2/3 of the way around. The tape on her skull was firmly anchored in her hair. Before the ME’s office removed the tape from the skull so that it might be examined, they took pictures of it, attached. The jury, (if there is one) and the Judge will see these pictures. If I were the prosecution, I would show these pictures at every opportunity. I wonder if Casey will hyperventilate when she sees them. Maybe when she does, she won’t have to stick her fingers in her eyes to produce a few tears.
Okay…after scanning through all of the 1765 pages, I’ve realized that the ONLY thing I understand of this doc dump is the pdf page numbers.
Thanks to everyone on here explaining the details.
I haven’t gone through all of the docs, but did anyone notice whether or not there were test results from the various vacuum cleaners, rug cleaner and steam cleaner from the Anthony house?
Also they took 21 pairs of shoes from Casey, (hard to maintain that kind of lifestyle without a job).
#128 martha
No, you’re not … I have never trusted Lee (still don’t) and still wonder what he needed immunity for in the 1st place. He eventually got it IIRC, so I am dying to know what he knows and what he might say at trial since we all know Casey would prefer to take her chances and dance with the jury instead of admitting guilt and pleading out. It’s just a matter of time now though because unless there are some really stupid jurors in that courtroom, I really don’t see how she can get out of this one, barring any Satanic interventions of course, LOL
I’m thinking and typing way too fast here.
Sources for the steroids could also come from so many of the “party circle” people, which Chris S. is not a part of.
CA could have retained a “party” syringe, which would be enough to cause overdose in a 2 year old child. And no way could little Caylee accidently inject herself and deploy the plunger administering a lethal dose into her little body. No way.
This is interesting…
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-casey-anthony-documents-20091106,0,2860155,comment-display-all.story
Post by Tulessa on the Orlando Sentinel comments:
chloroform, testosterone, ethanol and water were found in the syringe.
Found this website, it has ALL 4 ingredients.
Revivogen Scalp Therapy for hair loss
http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss-articles/362.htm
Snipped from website …
2.3 Testosterone
Testosterone: [4-14C] testosterone (Amersham B76, 54 mCi/mmole, 2.35 nmole/epidermis). [4-14C] testosterone stock-solution was dissolved in ethanol and diluted in sterile water (1% ethanol final).
2.5 Extractions and analysis
Transepidermal diffusion assessment: the amount of testosterone that passed through the epidermal tissues was measured by liquid scintillation counting (LKB 1211 Rackbeta counter) of a fraction of culture medium.
Metabolism analysis: the steroid molecules from culture media were extracted by 2 volumes of chloroform/methanol (98:2) and dried. The various molecular species (testosterone metabolites) were separated by thin layer chromatography (TLC) on silica plates (RE/Silice, Whatman) in a solvent system containing dichloromethane, ethylacetate and methanol (85:15:3). The plates were autoradiographed and testosterone metabolites were quantified using a phosphorImager and specific software (Packard instrument).
Tulessa (11/06/2009, 3:27 PM )
======================================
Was George using any type of Hair loss treatements?
Could Casey have poisoned Caylee by injecting her with these ingredients?
From the handwritten notes in the margins on the bottle and syringe findings, I take it to mean they think Caylee was killed by chloroform as found in the car. They wanted the bottle, syringe and doll tested to “determine if residues from chemicals that killed victim are present”.
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/1106/21541051.pdf (bottom page 8 and top of page 9)
I don’t know if anyone responded to these inquiries. The Disney bag with the syringe and Gatorade bottle were found within 18 inches of the remains. There was also a pregnancy test that I have yet to see any information. Caylee had her first cold in the beginning of May. (It was posted last night on another blog.) There may be a text to Amy? about it. May have resulted in a Dr. visit. I’m tempted to go with the syringe being lifted from Chris S. Also, I read that chloroform can be ordered off the internet. Maybe that was a result of the March search.
Were there 2 bags of garbage, one in the car and the other in the trunk? When LE showed Cindy the photo of the pizza trash bag, there was a second bag in the photo.
I thought this was interesting. I looked up hydrocarbons and I saw this. The gasoline reference jumped out at me although I don’t think it factors in.
Background
Exposure to hydrocarbons is common in modern society. Hydrocarbons are easily accessible in products such as gasoline, turpentine, furniture polish, household cleansers, propellants, kerosene, and other fuels. Although hydrocarbons include all compounds composed predominantly of carbon and hydrogen, the compounds of interest are derived from petroleum and wood. Most of the dangerous hydrocarbons are derived from petroleum distillates and include aliphatic (straight-chain) hydrocarbons and aromatic (benzene-containing) hydrocarbons. Other hydrocarbons such as pine oil and turpentine are derived from wood.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1010734-overview
westsidehudson
GHB is the so-called date-rape drug, “party steroid”.
Off subject for just a second …
Can anyone please explain why Karen B. Cowen from the FBI is addressing Yuri Melich in an e-mail, “Hi, honey …” WTH????
post 156 - mdg
While I didn’t try the experiment, I did realize how large a 9 inch piece of tape would be. And I agree, photos of the tape still in tact should be shown as many times as possible to those who will hopefully convict Casey. Somehow though, I don’t think seeing the photo will phase Casey.
Does anyone remember the tiny unidentified holes in the duck tape? I don’t have time to research but I kinda remember them. They looked like staple holes. I hate to say this but do you think KC injected little Caylee with this concoction after putting the duck tape around her mouth and nose? Could those little holes on that duck tape be from the needle they found. Can they be matched up? Just thinking out loud here.
mdg… that’s why I asked the question in my last post! I don’t think we know for sure that any of that stuff is related to this case. And I’d be very surprised if Casey was dabbling in steroids — either for muscle or fun.
That area was basically a dumping ground for years. I’m sure thousands of folks walked or drove past it and tossed some kind of garbage in there. I’m going to hold comments on any of it until we hear that it is truly part of Casey’s plot to make someone else look guilty of this crime. I don’t think she thought that far in advance, but I could be totally wrong and I’ll admit to that when someone tells me I am!
Until then, my vote is for Casey as evil-doer — all by herself.
#55 I remember reading that the syringe in the bottle was described in a roll like a toilet paper roll.
I took notes on this and the description might be found on page 9709 of discovery. Unfortunately I don’t know which type of page number but I think it was handwritten.
Something else that has steriods is acne cream.
I don’t know if there was in fact an accomplice “after the fact” and I admit, I’m mostly leaning toward “no” myself based on Casey’s unstable mental capacities and overwhelming narcissism but at the same time, a part of me still wonders if it’s possible somehow … I lean toward Casey acting completely alone, both before/during/after for many reasons:
1) Casey is too narcissistic not to have turned the other person in the 1st chance she got, especially if she could’ve done it without somehow implicating herself in the process
2) None of her various friends (except one IMO) seemed to have any knowledge of her secret plans either before or after the fact nor acted strangely enough to warrant major suspicion from what we actually know. I say except one for a reason but I’ll get to that in a minute …
3) Too many people seemed completely unaware of Casey’s real goings-ons throughout their relationships with her to really have any real knowledge of something like this. I really believe she had pretty much duped pretty much all of them … none of them really knew the “real” Casey nor what she was eventually capable of
4) No cell pings, phone records, interviews, etc from what we’ve already seen released show the existence of another accomplice during the alleged timeframe Caylee actually went missing to date (unless there’s something none of us know yet)
5) Unless there’s also a “phantom accomplice” much like the phantom nanny, I would think it would be really difficult for someone to have inside knowledge and not somehow be found out by LE by now, not to mention that with publicity what it is today and the narcissistic need for it among many in this case, that someone wouldn’t have “slipped” or at least bragged and/or told someone about it at this point. There is a saying among the Mafia … only one person can keep a secret forever … two if the other is dead.” This seems to be Casey’s motto in life hence her “Trust no one, only yourself” in her Diary of Days poem to Cindy on My Space. Casey is too mistrusting to actually have enlisted the help of anyone outside her own family and maybe not even them, although I’m still suspicious of Lee after-the-fact.
So … with all of those points, it’s hard for me to believe an accomplice in any form existed. However, that being said, loud danger bells (cue tornado sirens here) still always go off in my head everytime I read or hear anything from Annie Downing regarding this case … she is my one exception to the 5 points, hence my leaving the possibility for an accomplice after-the-fact open at all. I can’t really bring myself to leave open the possibility of an accomplice before or during the whole ordeal … but like Blink, I could later change my mind …
Downing acted very strangely in most of her interviews with LE, even going so far as to cry and get emotional during questioning in certain places. Tons of people were interviewed by LE and all of them knew Caylee at least on some personal level (to whatever degree anyone could actually truly “know” Casey and Caylee) and all of them talked highly of her, but not one of them broke down and cried, except her old friend Christina on the phone with Casey in the jailhouse call when Caylee was originally missing (that part was normal IMO though). But Annie by contrast seemed to be holding something back … something she either remembers or something she doesn’t want to remember that she knows, hence the spontaneous crying out of the blue in talking about what might have caused Caylee’s demise and what may have happened “in Annie’s opinion”.
Annie was the only one out of all the interviews I read and listened to that truly sounded conflicted … guilt reaction? Guilty consciences often leak the details the mind is trying hard to forget. For whatever reasons, I genuinely believe Annie has one. I just don’t know why yet. So as a result of Annie, I have entertained the idea that it’s “possible” someone else maybe did help with something after-the-fact or at the very least, knows something about who did. Another red flag for me regarding Annie is she seemed to go out on a limb on insisting to LE that she and Casey weren’t really good friends anymore, nor had had much contact since around 2007 or so but she seems to almost have a self-serving agenda for doing so. At times she even seems downright hostile and defensive. If you have nothing to hide, why so defensive?
Annie stated she hated being deceived and she knew Casey was a liar and that helped severely cool their friendship, but something stinks in suburbia. If that was true, then why was Annie one of (if not THE first) one over at the Anthony house after Casey got out of jail the 1st time and not only that, but pleaded with the Ant’s to “take me to Casey”. Then she stayed the night on top of it and when it seemed as if Casey might actually confide something to her regarding the whole mystery, Annie changes the subject because she “didn’t really wanna be the one to know …” WTH????
At that time, it was still a missing child case … you cry over the child after-the-fact during police questioning after her remains are found and yet when she’s still allegedly out there somewhere missing, you say you “Don’t want the information that may inevitably end up helping to find and potentially save her?” That’s just wrong on so many levels … unless of course, you’re hiding something yourself. If Annie had this resentment toward Casey because of the lies or whatever happened between them that basically drove them apart, then why was Annie running to her after she got out of jail when no one else was even visiting her in jail? If your friendship was basically history at that point, then you’d hardly run to that same person when they’re accused of doing away with their child, yes?
Annie kept stressing the comment to LE that, “but see, I had major issues going on myself at the time ..” WHY would you keep commenting on that when they’re asking you about a murder investigation of one of your old friends? It almost seemed as if Annie was trying to get detectives to ask her what that was … just seems as if she kept throwing that out there for some reason, even hinting in some way or something, but it has always bothered me. It still amazes me LE never asked (on record anyway) what those “issues” were with Annie at the time and how they might’ve pertained to Casey or Caylee in anyway. Even Yuri Melich seemed to suspect some sort of coverup from Annie questioning why she was suddenly so emotional and that it seemed like she was holding something back … doesn’t seem like rocket science to me, but I could be wrong. Something besides Caylee’s early demise was bothering Annie and I still believe she WAS in fact hiding something. I just really hope whatever that was .. whatever she knows eventually comes out in court, if not sooner.
Testosterone is also used for ED
The syringe looks like a regular 2cc syringe- not insulin. (The black and white small pic isn’t the best). It looks like it has a subq needle on it and not an IM needle. These shorter needles are made to go into the fat layer and not the intra-muscular layer (though with kids that’s different).
Testosterone is an IM (muscular) injection. Sometimes a patient can handle a muscular injection on their own- but not many do.
Also- if a person has very little fat layer- they will use a subq needle for a muscular shot. Hope some of this helped?
I’m currently in “the syringe is unrelated” camp. Sounds like urine plus household cleaners make chloroform. I’m not 100%% sure why those things would end up in a bottle together with a syringe, but people do trash all kinds of odd things.
I guess I’m stuck on this line in the Orlando Sentinel article: Chloroform also is the byproduct of contact between chlorine used in swimming pools and skin, sweat or urine.
But the bottle with syringe, was in the disney bag, which was Caylee’s. How are you getting past that?
B
Photo of the guy with the kill tattoo on his fingers. Sorry it is a pretty small picture.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/caylee%20anthony/princesslucylulu/Caylee%20Anthony%20case/Caylee84.jpg?o=342
Blink- what type of illness did Lee have as a pre/early teen? Would he have access to steroids as part of his treatment? Could Lee be Casey’s “help” after the fact. Is this related to his immunity? He seems very detached himself. He doesn’t really seem as though he ever bonded with Caylee.
mdg, so how did the Gatorade bottle, it’s contents, the syringe/needle kit in it’s plastic bag, with those chemicals in side it, all get into the trash bags with the body?
That would be good for the defense, why would someone put it in there if dumping trash unrelated to a murder, and thereby possibly implicate themselves by dna or fingerprints or something else they don’t think about? Really– someone dumping trash would not likely worry about that stuff having prints on it– maybe the syringe DOES have someone’s prints on it, that’s why it was in it’s bag and then protected with those rolls of cardboard. (which would have surely disintegrated in the muck to a much higher degree than as found– they would be grimy and dirty from the swamp don’t you think?? And delaminated much more.
No, not everything is collected and part of a crime, that’s to be sorted out, but WHY was it INSIDE the body bags? That’s pretty darned hard to explain.
Also- in case there’s any question- you can twist the needle off/on the syringe too. If someone were to draw up choloform to squirt up someone’s nose it wouldn’t have to have the needle on it. Then you can twist the needle back on.
And a huge coincidence that there was decomp detected by several disparate sources– trained K9’s, highly experienced homicide detectives, the tow yard worker who had smelled death before in one of their vehicles that was involved in a suicide of an adult person, George Anthony himself, Cindy Anthony, ‘nurse of decomposition’ with experience at the morgue before, experience with psudomonis (sp), rotting flesh (her state depo).
And chloroform was found in the syringe and in the Gatorade, there were cleaning products in Casey’s car trunk, detection of chloroform in larger amounts than human decomp. How likely is that that someone tosses their garbage INTO the bag, with the strange concoctions inside, which include chloroform and also cleaning supplies smells.
Not likely at all, and beyond all this, WHY wouldn’t the person, who must have of course, by your theory, hidden their own needle and Gatorade garbage INSIDE the bags with a body, do that? And if they DID, why didn’t they leave that scene quickly and dump their garbage elsewhere. (or did they stand there, say oops, it’s a great place to dispose of this stuff, but looks like a murder happened, so better wipe all these things packed neatly in their packages of cardboard and plastic– means undoing them, wiping them off carefully, repacking without prints, retying the garbage bags again, without leaving prints, or footprints or dropping anything off their clothing or hairs into the mess.
Makes no sense this is just tossed garbage– yesterday I’d agree until more was known– today, reading the reports, no way.
Possible though– yeah– maybe a martian came down and tossed their spaceship garbage there too, by some sort of special rays, put it in the triple bags.
and then there’s the maggots testimony– a well-developed and accepted ’science’, not junk science.
Wait a minute, didn’t Chris Stutz (forgive me if I am mixing the guys up a bit) say that her mother got a treadmill and it was that day he related the visit of Casey to his parent’s house? If they just got a treadmill for home use, no need for a gym.
oops.. the Disney Bag– mea culpa!! Sorry mdg– it was the Disney bag. I read that and saw the pic too– will have to wait and see if this is actual evidence at trial or not, or just someone else’s garbage– but there’s the chloroform in both with a mix of chemicals– that used for recreation drugs or doing harm to someone?
I don’t believe anyone helped her at all. She just walked in a short distance and dropped her off, and then got rid of everything else. In all of Fl why dump her off down the road? She was always lazy and this whole thing is just her being lazy again.
Nevermind, I was confused. The brownish liquid in the crystal lite bottle (from the pizza trash bag in the car), which some of us were sure was tobacco spit, was urine (because…??). The gatorade bottle an syringe, that’s a whole different ballgame, though it still confuses me as to what exactly it is about.
About someone else helping Casey clean up her crime–who in her range of friends and lovers would put themselves on the line for this type of Casey involvement, and undoubtedely, future Casey treachery? ( Her latest love ,TL, wouldn’t even let her stay in his apt. while he was in NY.)
She just doesn’t command that level of fervor and devotion. Except, of course, that which is seen within her immediate family.
Blink and all Blinkers,
After reading some of the other post’s here, I almost hate to throw in my 2cents, because as I’ve said before, there are times that this site will help you to realize you’re wayyyyyy more simple-minded than you thought. That being said, (as usual)… Maybe there are times a simple point of view could be useful? I don’t know.
Here is my simple thought. I have never thought Casey had help in murdering Caylee, and there have been times I can’t decide if she truly had help in the cover-up, and not really positive she tried to frame anyone. Well, not before she got thrown in jail, framing someone (imo) was an afterthought. I HAVE ALWAYSSSS THOUGHT FOR CERTAIN that chloroform was used by Casey with one or two of her men, in a sexual manner, sort of like the GHB thing. I couldn’t say for sure, especially without really knowing someone, because just assuming by appearance and/or actions of somebody I could be way off, in fact, it might not be their “thing” at all. However, I’ve wondered if Ricardo might be one, and the cop she hung out with for a bit. This thought or theory of mine may very well be laughable even, but I’ll say it anyway.
I seriously doubt she got the syringe from Cindy, given Cindy’s job was a desk job, so to speak, and doubtfully there were any supplies sitting in view. I can’t speak for other states, but here in Texas, you cannot get syringes without a prescription, empty or pre-filled, doesn’t matter, still have to have a script. So here goes…..maybe she got the syringe after it had been used for a night of crazy sex using chloroform? Maybe that same syringe was initially used for shooting up steroids, for some type of body building or weight gain? If there were also traces of urine in that syringe, not sure I read that right, but if there were…..I do know that people who need to pass a drug screening will tape a “clean” urine filled syringe to their leg, or even their penis if it’s a drug screen where they are watched over. I know it would seem a crazy theory that the same syringe might contain all 3 of those via my crazy scenario, BUT stranger things have happened where Casey is concerned. My last thought….As for her going to the trouble of hiding the body, yet leaving a murder weapon nearby….. More simple thinking on my part here, but I don’t think she gave it any thought. I think the car smelled and she needed to get rid of it, and along with the body, she dumped other things, but she did it without thinking she was going to get caught. Or, she did it without thinking because she just didn’t care, she was in a hurry, etc. EVEN IF she had a passing thought she might someday get caught, that was all it was, just a passing thought, and in Casey’s world, she could lie her way out of anything, or so she thought. If she weren’t able to lie her way out of it, her mom would be there to bail her out.
Blink or anyone care to comment and knock my theory out of the water completely? Won’t hurt my feelings…maybe a lil’..ha. I would like to hear more thoughts on the syringe subject though.
joypath_SEROLOGY Testing question:
In the serology testing of the blanket etc, there is a positive indicated under “pheno”. Does pheno refer to ‘phenotype’ or rather to the presumptive testing using phenolphthalein ? I would think that in order to get an actual phenotype, you would need to have hemoglobin present, which was indicated as negative.
You can just buy syringes at CVS. You don’t have to steal used ones! lol
Comment by PamVA — November 6, 2009 @ 3:27 pm
If someone helped her, don’t you think she would be singing like a canary? One comment directed to Casey’s mommy dearest is ringing in my ears though, “Don’t worry I haven’t told them anything.”
I heard it too! The jailhouse visit on 07-25-08 9:00 AM where KC said ” I was talking with one of the doctors. I haven’t said anything don’t worry.”to her mother. There is more to the story than being told at this time. I wish Paul Harvey was here bless his soul so we could get “The rest of the story” but we do have Blink! Thanks, Blink for the informative post site. I have become a lurker and a FAN.
OASN, I’m with you!!!! My poor little brain is grappling with the LEG of a blowfly!!! The leg!!!! Astounding, no?
I thought in that jail video Cindy was saying we forgive anything you have said and casey keeps asking to turn the sound down and cindy repeats this 3 times and casey says don’t worry I haven’t said anything. This is the same video where cindy keeps telling her to look into the camera .
Kleat,
Helllppppp! I’ve had the little one keeping me away from reading a lot, but, ARE YOU SAYING the gatoraide bottle with the syringe was found in the bags with the body? I’ve got to go back to the reading board because I thought it was found in or near a Disney bag? Sorry, but, despite what the Anthony’s would make you believe a little two year old can keep your mind from concentrating! And off the computer…and off the phone….and busy as hey!
In my state you need a Rx. for a syringe. They are easy to find in the athletic and drug world, however. She could have swiped one from a drawer where CA worked. The fact that it had testosterone on it makes me think she took it from an acquaintance that took it for building muscle mass. Was there also urine in the bottle? Pregnancy test nearby. Another coincidence? Too damning. Comp. searchers on her comp. for chloroform, precious Caylee found deceased w/ a bottle w/ residue containing chloroform lying nearby. There has got to be prints or DNA in that bottle…it was protected by the elements, unless of course she wore gloves.
Has anyone found results for the pregnancy test?
I see it listed in the new documents:
Q183 Pregnancy test ( H-60514,Item 4, Q133)
..but I cannot find any information about results.
If this test had been used, perhaps there might be extant DNA..?
or, after so long, it might be degraded.
But if anyone finds results on this, I would like to know…
thanks.
And like others….I am finding this some of the most difficult, horrific and heartbreaking reading.
Nancy Grace is talking about the ‘bombshell evidence’ the syringe with chloroform on onight’s program. This time I agree it is a potential ‘bombshell’ that the defense will have a hard time refuting or calling it ‘junk science. anyone but Casey would be seriously considering a plea bargain, but I still doubt she’ll ever admit to even it being an accident much less murder by a lethal injection of chloroform, tetesterone & whatever else she concocted in that syringe to kill this poor baby.
Blink!!
The disney bag is caylee’s?? Did I miss something?
Suz post #159
That was my assumption, your right, we can’t be sure yet.
B
What about accutane? Any steroids in that? Lee took it and went into a depression. Casey had acne on her back. Was she getting accutane shots?
Sorry typos above: tonight & testosterone. Also learning more than I want to about ‘coffin flies’ there goes the defense strategy that someone dumped the body later.
Blink-#176
How do we know the Disney bag was Caylees’? I don’t remember seeing that…
Please help!!
#199–steroids were not found. Testosterone is a male hormone. Ppl. use it to build muscle mass.
There was a Winnie the Pooh balloon in the same area as the Disney bag. Disney and Winnie the Pooh just about cover a 2 year old’s interest. Pretty big coincidence.
About fingerprints, my understanding is that the latent prints may never be released with a document dump. The information of Casey’s partial prints may not be revealed until the start of trial.
Yes’m
B
Testosterone can be used to treat:
Bipolar II disorder
Chronic fatigue syndrome
Panic disorder / agoraphobia
Depression
Post-Traumatic stress disorder
Male menopause
E.D
We know Cindy was treated for depression at one point
George is the right age for male menopause
Didn’t Annie state she had anxiety/ panic disorder issues that she was taking zanax to treat?
Casey is sly like a fox. Who would put that syringe back in its original plastic covering and then seal it again in a bottle with a lid? Only someone that was possibly trying to preserve the DNA of someone else. I know in my doctors office the exam room has a hazardous waste container sitting on the floor, usually full of needles and blood absorbers. I have no doubt that she did this, but you are not giving her enough credit for trying to cover her tracks.
Just a quick comment on junk science. I could be wrong, but I’m “almost” positive that Linda Kenney Baden is married to Dr. Michael Baden, the famous Medical Examiner. So famous in fact, he’s not only been called into many high profile trials, but he has put out many HBO specials. Not to forget, or most importantly, he was called in to reconstruct and/or redo the Kennedy autopsy back in the 70’s. Ever since she joined the team and all this talk of junk science came about. Just wonder if and when they EVER see each other, or sit down to dinner together….do you think he ever says…”ummmmm, I’ve worked long and hard and made a lot of money performing junk science Linda, have you always felt this way about my work, or thought I’m an idiot for getting up and going in to work each day to perform “junk science, as you and your “new” defense team call it???? Hmmmm, just a thought I’ve had from the day I heard that term. They are husband and wife, no??
Kleat,
I thought Chris Stutz was saying that his own mother had just gotten a treadmill, not Cindy. Or did I misread what you were asking?
The particular type of steroid that was in the syringe has testosterone in it, and is injectable, and is used by many female bodybuilders. If Casey was checking out being a trainer , then almost any gym she checked out, if she made it to the lady’s lockers..well it’s a good bet she could get the syringe and the roids there. Neither is illegal..she could have mail ordered them. The bad thing about this particular roid is that due to the concentration of testosterone after repeated use the lady begins to develop some male characteristics..can’t see Casey using this herself. Therefore I think she fished the syringe out of the trash at a gym or stole it from someone else’s locker. Or she used it a few times and started seeing some characteristics she didn’t like.
Shelly, that was a ‘tired eyes’ time! It was in the Disney Bag!!! I put in a mea culpa later!!
Does anybody here know what the effects of giving someone a shot of chloroform would be vs holding a rag of chloroform over someone’s mouth?
death, quickly, in a toddler
B
Blink, did you ever find out more about the psychic that Keith Williams was talking about (the one he told George about)?
And did you ever pin down precisely, where William’s looked in the woods, how that related to the crime scene?
Might it be possible, anyone, with this new discovery then that the gatorade bottle and syringe may very well suggest the accident the defense seems to be leaning towards in the latest round of motions? If Casey herself was abusing anabolic steroids to fulfill her ambition to become a trainer might the baby have gotten hold of Casey’s ’stash can’ and caused an accidental poisoning? Then of course in a panic create a very messy cover up?
Comment #161 has uncovered information which offers a possible hair regrowth combination of drugs in the syringe and hair loss is a symptom of chronic steroid abuse - as are tumors and ‘female problems’. Casey may have actually believed her pregnancy was a tumor at the time or another type female problem as she originally claimed to the family. It may have been a great relief to her to find out it was a pregnancy afterall.
Another interesting aside is that long term abuse can also lead to acts of aggression and other psychiatric effects (paranoid jealousy believe it or not, is also a result). Extreme mood swings with manic-like behavior leading to violence is also common. Her searches for cholorform may well have been for herself to alleviate the ever growing side effects (I guess in this case hair loss). I admit I can’t get past the search for neck-breaking though. Unless in her training she may have been researching how not to injure (as a personal trainer might very well do).
Anyway, I just thought that these things might be interesting to consider. Not that drug use would excuse Casey on any level - but something a truth the defense may be considering?
I’ve been thinking about the notion that Casey used chloroform for sexual purposes at some point. While I can buy into the idea she might have experimented with it, I just have this sense that she wouldn’t want to use anything that would jeapordize her sense of being in control during the sex act itself. I have the feeling that Casey doesn’t even like sex. For her, it’s just a way to get what she wants; but otherwise is fairly meaningless. Her partners however, probably were able to cotton on fairly early that it meant little or nothing to her; and although she is probably able to respond in most physical ways, she lacks the capacity for the emotional response that is so near the crux of an intimate relationship. Casey couldn’t risk it. She might try it on Caylee to make the child groggy and easier to handle, but not on herself.
I think that Casey burned with jealousy of Caylee; nothing was for her anymore, it was all for the baby now. And the baby, the baby is turning into a person and becoming capable of expressing herself, talking and asking questions, questions that might soon become embarassing for Casey, or even incriminating. Casey was going to have to find a way to stop Caylees questions. So she did.
@#36- Me, too. Then after reading your post it happened again. I hope God was with Caylee, too. At least we can take comfort in knowing he certainly is with her now.
**********************************************************************
Good info dump. Yes, Blink always reminded us there WERE/ARE fingerprints. There is way too much forensic evidence now, so it WAS such a good news day for the defense. Now understanding also why Blink has been maintaining all along she thinks Casey will plea out. At this point..it appears as if Team Baez is absolutely crazy if they do not since the DP is on the table. Life in prison potentially vs. the DP? What the hell kind of a lawyer would do otherwise? He (and many others) are indeed are riding that gravy train until it stops in it’s tracks. My disgust is renewed for Cindy & George Anthong. Even 6 MONTHS AFTER THE CAR WAS RECOVERED THERE WAS STILL THE SMELL OF DECOMP IN THAT TRUNK! How can these people look themselves in the mirror every day KNOWING that was their own Grandaughter ? No wonder George tried to committ suicide—now I actually believe that wasn’t even a cry out for attention…I’m beginning to think it was legitimate—-he was getting tired of “living the lie”. Hmmmmppphhhfff! Maybe his Dr’s presribed him some excellent Anti-Anxiety or depression meds to get him through all this and the shock of losing Caylee Marie at the hands of his own daughter?? Can’t figure out any other reason why he would have gone back to being submissive to Cindy’s false front and LIVING THE LIE. That part makes your stomach turn, doesn’t it?
**** JUSTICE FOR CAYLEE MARIE ANTHONY ****
-J4N
oooppps…typo in #216. Meant good news day for LE/Prosecution.
Casey Anthony should/WILL get the needle! And, rightly so. I cannot wait to see her squirming in her seat in that Courtroom come trial in 2010, sorry.
justice23, ddderma and post #177- I know the guy, through the great- vine I should say. He works and hangs downtown. He’s pretty much a fixture. Going through the pics a few weeks ago I was very surprised to see him in there given the rest of the people she was associated with. But once I thought about it, it made sense. This was probably taken sometime during her Fusian phase. However - I laughed when this was brought up in reference to roids. He’s small in stature- maybe the tats are an effort to make up for it…Anyway, this was probably a random pic
After reading the evidence from the new docs it just makes everything even more horrifying. I can’t even imagine what Caylee went through at the hands of her own mother. What I also find horrifying is that the grandparents are still on a mission to protect Casey. What about Caylee? It is all just so heartbreaking.
#207 great post Wendy!!! love it!
Snowy 213
Hi, Thank you for posting your thoughts. I appreciate your trying to walk a mile in the defense’s shoes, but IMO The defense would fail in using this excuse.
Casey does not fit the profile of someone who has been abusing steriods.
Testosterone does not have to be from steroid use. There are many medications that can be treated with injections of testosterone.
Your mention of female problems was very enlightening to me.
I remember Cindy saying she thought Casey wasn’t pregnant but instead suffering from femela problems. Cindy stated she herself has them and they can be hereditary.
Perhaps Cindy was telling the truth and not Casey regarding the female problems/pregnancy.
By 7 months, Casey would have known there was a baby inside of her. Caylee would have been moving, kicking. IMO with Casey’s small build there is no way she could have thought these movements were anything other than a baby. IMO Cindy is an expert at deluding herself but if she would have examined Casey I am positive she would have seen the baby’s movement.
Since we know Cindy has/had female problems by her own testimony perhaps Casey “borrowed” some of Cindy’s medication to add to the poison. One of the conditions that can be treated with testosterone or steroids is Lichen Sclerosus which women get around and after menopause.
How does a bottle of cloraform/testosterone/ethanol help the defense prove accident? To me it screams - deadly mixture poison- KWIM
Thanks again for playing devil’s advocate Snowy, its interesting to step back and think hmmmm What if?
Keeping in mind to my knowledge, we can’t tie the gatorade bottle to Caylee/Casey at this time, although compelling given the traces of chloroform, I have a few years background managing prelaunch brands of Hormone Replacement Therapy in the Pharma Industry. (HRT) For the most part, the non-synthetic premarin “like” replacement therapies have been shown to have serious side effects and the few that were in phase II got scrapped early, I dont think is related to Cindy and menopause.
B
I’ll take a shot at the steroid debate. Propionate is on the black market as an anabolic steroid used by male athletes and bodybuilders. Accutane and asthma meds have no connection to this. Asthma meds are inhaled. Epinephrine pens are used for anaphylactic reactions which are life threatening and again unrelated to testosterone.
Now, if Jesse were using steroids, he would be in danger of getting kicked off the force if he came up positive on a pee test. Did he need clean urine and did Casey offer to supply it? Was this unsuccessful and this is why he was fired? Since she did see him prior to the murder, she would have little problem getting a used syringe and using that syringe to inject the chloroform. Nice way to implicate him. Could she have used the gas cans to make and store the chloroform?Did she put the duct tape around the cap to secure it and prevent spills? I don’t know how she could done this without wearing gloves to protect herself and her clothing. I was also wondering if Rusciano used steroids. She was cozy with quite a few LE types who might use steroids to build strength for the job.
Now for the “Medical Nurse” distinction- that’s news to me. I wonder if “Nurse Practitioner” is the correct clinician being thought of. If there is a reason for a nurse to use chloroform, I’d love to know what that is. I have worked in an operating room and can assure you chloroform is not part of nursing in any way.
Choloroform is used in refrigeration and there was mention of Casey going past or to the Orange County Public Utilities on the way to AMSCOT. I don’t know where that ties in exactly, but perhaps greater minds can debate that. Could she have chosen to use the chloroform post-mortem with the duct tape to bolster her kidnapping story?
Perhaps she did break Caylee’s neck or even drown her in the bath tub at the house in a rage. Did she sleep next to Caylee’s dead body the night of the 15th and stay hidden until the parents left the house?
We know from a neighbor the screaming match ensued when Casey got home on the 15th. Same neighbor says Cindy left the home during Casey’s screamfest. According to Cindy, Casey arrived while they were in the pool and she asked Casey to run Caylee’s bath and took her from the pool. This coordination of information, since I believe Cindy knows the truth about what happened and is perched to say so at the right time, makes me believe Casey drowned Caylee in the tub. I know there are alot that think Casey was a cold calculated maniacle murderess. I dont. I think she is a malignant narcissist that for a few seconds took her rage out on an innocent baby. To your point, she very well may have slept next to her.
Alternatively, this same scenario (intentional drowning) occurs the afternoon of 6/16.
B
For some reason (and I could be wrong) I am thinking that I’ve seen the guy with the “K I L L” named as Dante…
You know…the one who used to be Annie’s boyfriend and lived in Sawgrass with her?
I don’t know a great deal about him but seems like I remember he either left his job and/or Orlando after this all happened only to resurface back later. Seems like he was rather difficult to locate right after Caylee was announced missing. I do seem to remember something quite mysterious about him though.
I’m just not sure. Maybe someone with a better memory than mine can remember.
Not Dante.
B
Was Cindy in menopause and taking one of the new estrogen-testosterone medications? One of the RX’s removed from the Anthony home in Dec. was “Hydrochlorothiazide” and is a diuretic (some women take this to reduce water rention when taking estrogen (or variation of):
http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html
(black hand-written page number on the bottom right #3408)
And I see that “steroids” is listed in the below description I got from some site - (WebMD - can’t recall — sorry):
Hydrochlorothiazide treats fluid retention (edema) in people with congestive heart failure, cirrhosis of the liver, or kidney disorders, or edema caused by taking steroids or estrogen. This medication is also used to treat high blood pressure (hypertension).
Also in the above wftv doc link on page 67 (my computer) #08074777 heading,, Item #5, it lists another groups of RX’s removed from the home. One of which was in Caylee’s name:
A RX called Gentamicin. It is a pretty strong antiobiotic that many times is prescribed in a serum/injectible form for young children. Not sure what was prescribed for Caylee…it doesn’t state on this form one way or the other(just says “box), however, my son’s insulin bottles come in a “box” also…..If Caylee’s was the injectible prescription, then the home may already had syringes in it, or they were easily obtainable to Casey by the pharmacy since she had a script for this med.
I admire all of you who follow this case; I just wanted to share this with you and let you “experts” say it fits or doesn’t. It ran a bell to me when the word “testosterone” came up. Menopause immediately came to mind (and no I will not share the reason why
).
Could it be possible that all of this came directly from the Anthony home itself?
I can buy into the idea of Casey using Xanax from Annie vs chloroform to sedate Caylee while at parties,etc. This would tie Annie’s guilt in (giving a controlled substance to Casey illegally and probably knowing how it would be used) and give Casey something to hold over her head in a cover-up.I know she denied givng Casey the pills, but I don’t believe her. Casey may have given Caylee too much on purpose the night of the 15th, causing unresponsiveness, but not death, and used the chloroform to finish the job.
Now I’m wondering if the death penalty was put on the table not once they found Caylee’s remains, but once they tested (and connected?) the syringe and contents of the Gatorade bottle to her death. So, so sad to read all of this. Nice to feel like part of such a caring community brought together by this tragedy, though.
#190: If your Casey Anthony, you steal, from your family and
friends. Silly to even think she would go into a CVS, and
buy a syringe. Casey has done nothing but lie, steal, and
cheat her way through life. However if your right, hope they
found a receipt.
Question: How do the Anthony’s go on living as if nothing has
happend in their family? This is just beyond (I don’t even have
words for ). I am sick from what I have read. Thanks to you
Blink, and posters who help us understand what we are reading.
Hmmmm could the urine in the bottle have been used to manipulate the pregnancy test - either positive or negative? Manipulation of TL comes to mind.
Those documents felt like an extra large funeral pall for a an extra small little girl…Tristesse.
I’m thinking tattoo parlor bathroom for a testosterone-laced needle. Or someone’s bathroom.
Just gotta do as Winnie-the-Pooh says, “Think, think, think.”
What say you, Blink, blink, blink?
I say its related to Casey and this case. I say she put it there to frame someone, and I say there is more to come on this connection. wink, wink, wink.
B
I am so not good at finding things…
I cannot find that K I L L tattoo guy named anywhere so I guess I must not have seen him identified!
I did remember correctly though that Dante was contacted by police through a business card left in his door because they couldn’t locate him. I think he changed jobs around that time, too, and they couldn’t find him but he was still in Orlando from what I’ve read that he said.
No clue at all on who that KILL guy was since I couldn’t find what I thought I had read. Tired and going to bed now.
Would it really take that much to pull out of the garbage a syringe, that has male’s finger prints as well as testosterone……then use that same syringe and overdoes your child. It wouldn’t take much at all…..
As someone said earlier…….someone took meticulous time to make sure the liquids as well as the syrings was perserved.
re the bottle of urine,there was one that was just urine?if you look ever along the side of the freeway you will see discard bottles with inch or two inches of yellow or yellowishbrown liquid,its truckers who dont stop to pee ,they pee in a bottle and toss it out the window,not that there are truckers passing down hopespring but it was a urine spot for the meter readers.
Women especially like testosterone propionate since, when applied properly, an-drogenic-caused side effects can be avoided more easily The trick is to increase the time intervals between the various injections so that the testosterone level can fall again and so there is an accumulation of androgens in the female organism. Women therefore take propi-onate only every 5-7 days and obtain remarkable results with it. The, androgenic effect included in the propionate allows better re-generation without virilization symptoms for hard-training women who want to train or body build in a short amount of time.
Hi all..I am new here to post, but I have been reading here for a long time now.Blink I love this site, and you have done a great job with it..Just wanted to add my 2 cents on the testosterone theory..Does anyone know if KC was taking depro provera shots? They are depro testosterone,,thats what I read on google when I was looking for chloroform injections..If so, maybe she took the needle with her when she got her last shot? thanks for letting me ask..
Would testosterone show up in the bone as in Caylee’s tibia?
I am also curious as to why there is not a statement from Lauren Coppel. I cant believe LE never talked to her.
Propionate steroid injections (oil based)
http://testosterone-propionate.steroidshop.net/index.php/main_page/inject
I can only come up with two reasons why she left those syringes filled with chloraform in the same direct area where Caylee was found. She is either completely apathetic, to coincide with her narcissism and self-absorbsion, and she either didn’t care if Caylee and the evidence were found that would be eventually tied directly back to her, or she is filled with so much resentment and jealousy, that she wanted investigators to find it all
Wendy~
I heard Dr. Michael Baden speak on Fox News around the times Caylee’s remains were found. He did say Linda was his wife and they had conflicting views. He talked directly about the fingerprints of some kind that would be found on the duct tape. The “junk science” term is probably strictly a business move- so to say- to attempt to discredit the findings in an attempt to get their client off the hook. I suppose that they both respect each others views enough that they are able to cohabit much like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Marie Schriver and politics.
Ok, so, making chloroform gives off heat—lots and lots of heat, so much so you must cool down the reaction with lots and lots of ice, and every site I have seen cautions you to make it in glass containers because of the danger of reactions to plastic (really poisonous gas). So, did she just ignore these instructions and make a small bit in a plastic bottle? And did she use ice to cool it down? And where did she do this, presumably?
I was assuming she would have used the syringe to get the chloroform out of the bottle (once you mix the bleach and acetone or whatever, the chemical reaction occurs, causing the thing to become all cloudy, and then when it’s done the liquid is clear and the chloroform has settled at the bottom like white crystals or whitish “stuff” that you then have to extract from the other parts. I would think a syringe would work for extracting the chloroform.
BUT…I just noticed this part about making a small batch:
“NOTE: AS DESCRIBED THE REACTION DOES NOT PRODUCE ENOUGH CHLOROFORM FOR EXTRACTION. YOU’LL NEED TO USE AT LEAST A GALLON OF BLEACH AT A TIME (AND SUITABLE AMOUNT OF ACETONE) IN ORDER TO RECOVER ANY USEABLE QUANTITY OF CHLOROFORM.”
I guess it’s possible that she made a whole gallon, ignored the warnings about using plastic, and poured stuff into the small bottle without trying to extract the chloroform—even though she had a syringe for that purpose?
Or it’s possible that she didn’t read the part about having to make a big batch or about using glass, and her intention was to use the syringe to inject the chloroform, not to extract it, but she ended up injecting a mix of whatever was left over from the chemical reaction. If left to settle, the contents of the bottle would have separated into leftover acetone on top, water in the middle, and little bits of chloroform at the bottom.
Still a head scratcher for me.
casey wanted to be a personal trainer exactly as much as casey wanted to be an event planner and a photography major and a high school graduate and a nanny (don’t forget, the latter was on her resume)—that is to say, Casey didn’t really want to be any of those things she said she wanted to be. We probably could add cowboy and astronaut and fireman to the list.
B, when do you anticipate this finally going to trial?
Strongest evidence, in my opinion:
Adipocere on napkins, coffin flies on same napkins.
Hopefully the presence of the adipocere was memorialized in some manner: a photo, or another report analyzing chemical composition, or at least some type of quantitative measure. (so far, it is only a small handwritten note). I guess that this could be addressed through testimony and confirmed by more than one FBI witness.
The caveat: Coffin flies appreciate moist and decaying conditions and can be attracted to garbage and/or even wet decaying plant material. So theoretically, they could have been drawn to garbage due to tiny particles of decaying matter. However, I can’t imagine that they would burrow through small gaps in the trunk to access this matter, if attracted by smell. Small pieces of garbage would be unlikely to emit such a strong odor. I would guess that there would have had to have been some larger pieces of rotting matter (meat, etc) to attract them there in the first place. If they are depending on locating a meal for their continued survival, they would opt for one that would provide them with a long term sustenance rather than a quick bite, especially given the effort that they would have to make to arrive at this meal. Unless there is testimony from Tony and his room mates that a bug problem already existed in their apartment, and traveled to the trunk with the garbage.
The defense might argue that the coffin flies at the dump site have no relationship to the coffin flies in the trunk. However, frozen dinners or pizza will not produce adipocere. Dead animals will, but depending on the amount, there would have had to have been an entire pig in the car, or, let’s say, a squirrel. Now if they argue ‘a dead squirrel’ that will be problematic in that squirrels do not have an abundance of fat like a pig (a small child or a woman). In order to produce enough adipocere from a squirrel, it would probably need to be kept free from invasion of insects, and remained in the trunk for a significant amount of time. The presence of the coffin flies, in my opinion, would discount this theory. Also, there was no evidence of recovered animal bones in the trunk. Creatures from the latter part of decomp that begin to feast on bone were not present in the car.
So, even though we continue to hear that there is no connection to the remains and Casey, that really isn’t true. Whether or not Casey owned the Pontiac, it was hers to use exclusively. Coffin flies and adipocere tie the remains directly to her car, and thus connect the crime to her. She told friends about a smell in the car prior to this discovery at the towing company. She abandoned the car at the locale and lied to friends about her father ‘taking care’ of it. However, she never reported the car to her parents and essentially abandoned it. Sure they could throw in someone else having keys to the car. But like her daughter, Casey never reports the car missing (once towed), nor ever makes any attempt through friends or family to fill the gas tank (prior). If she wanted the car back, she could have enlisted any number of people to help. Instead, she chose to distance herself.
Speaking of plea deal, if Casey was to plea out, what is the minimum sentence required by law? Would that be LWOP?
depends on when it was accepted. If she waits until a felony conviction in the fraud trial, probably.
If she pleas before, and as I have stated already, cops to the entire incident without any remaining questions, etc and it can be corroberated, I do think she might get 25-life with the possibility of parole, and concurrent with the result of the fraud charges. What I dont think alot of people realize is how this dinky fraud trial going PRIOR to the murder trial is HUGE.. If it was to occur after the murder trial, there is a bevy of evidence and witnesses that I promise you the state would not be able to use in the murder trial.
B
Seriously doubtful Casey’s studying to be a personal trainer was anything but another lie to another friend. I’m sure she never ever would do roids! It is illegal to possess if you don’t have the script and here in FL syringes can be bought over the counter. Cindy had a desk job at Gentiva and rarely ever saw patients but she could’ve had an out of date syringe in her nursing bag from having seen a patient in the past. Most of the nurses have a nursing bag in the trunk for the just in case I have to see a patient once in a blue moon even if they work in the office. Usually the supplies are kept in a seperate room and have to be logged out and sometimes someone goes in with you just to pull charge out tags and put in patient billing so Casey wouldn’t just happen upon a syringe at Cindy’s work and no drugs are kept there either. As for the testosterone the injectible type is usually dispensed in the docs office. Patches are more popular for the men being treated for fatigue and ED and cream for the ladies usually due to low sex drive and hormonal dysfunction. I’m sure if at all connected to Casey one of her (____ __ hunk would fit here nicely B, lol) men were injecting for musle mass and the proper way to dispense of in the home is in a plastic bottle, can or jar with a fastenible lid. Casey surely didn’t think her pregnancy was a steroid induced tumor, she knew exactly why and how her belly was growing. In no pics of Casey is it ever evident that she used steroids. Before her hair would fall out she would have gotten bigger, more muscular and poss. facial hair and acne. She’s too into being girlie to touch that stuff. Maybe it was Lee’s.
I wonder what the odds are of finding a syringe and bottle with
cholorform residue next to the remains of a child who was probably in a trunk that tested for choloroform? I think that the prosecution
has to be going on the basis that these things were placed in the dumping ground with by Casey. As to why, well, Casey didnt make much of an attempt to really bury Caylee either - she just dumped her
and everything else that she had with her in the same spot. She was gone for 31 days she could have driven far away and dumped everything including the body and gotten rid of the car too but instead she used a spot within walking distance from her home. This ties together then with her leaving the bag with the syringe and bottle as well. It ties
in to her state of mind.
The Gatorade Bottle, syringe, chloroform, ethanol & testosterone:
#123_suz “Westsidehudson, I have not seen anything about prints yet, so I wonder how are they going to link the syringe to Casey?”
Agreed. So far the bottle was either: 1) left on the scene and completely unrelated. The trace amount of chloroform innocently and coincidentally formed by a combination of elements, without intention. 2) It was left on the scene intentionally, chloroform willfully concocted, is related to the case, and for the purpose of tying the owner of the syringe, (person using testosterone) to the crime. This is quite possible. Why would someone otherwise take the time to place this needle back into packaging (to preserve fingerprints, etc.)? They either wanted these prints to be discovered, they are stupid, or no prints exist. 3) Less likely, the ‘real perp’ (not Casey) tossed it out mindlessly with the remains. However, Casey states that the person who ‘took her daughter’ was Zanny, and Casey never indicated that Zanny was abusing steroids, or that her husband or boyfriend used them either. So we’d have to find some kind of connection from Zanny to this perp.There is (or is not) fingerprint or DNA evidence of an unknown. 4) It was tossed out by Casey, who intentionally created chloroform and used it on Caylee, in a needle previously used to shoot testosterone, (or testosterone was later added as a red herring). Fingerprints or DNA were recovered to tie Casey to the items, or not.
However, we do have other circumstantial computer evidence linking Casey’s search of “how to make chloroform”. But I’m not sure that would be enough for this particular piece of evidence alone to be considered beyond ‘reasonable doubt’.
So, in thinking more objectively today, I’m not sure what to make of this, barring further test results.
#224_Comment by cmaissol
I’m pretty sure that I was in error yesterday, in reporting the positive drug results in the Q 59 sample. A formal report, rather than raw data, with the same day as testing appears to state that no drugs were found in the hair sample. Anyone can check the facts, I’m not up for reading these pages again today.
Was the testosterone in the syringe or the urine? Do they know whose urine it was? I am praying that Caylee died from chloroform exposue. Atleast she would not have been conscious and aware of what her mother was doing.
http://primewriter.com/news-1246-headlines/?p=338
This site reports that there was a stain found on the doll, ‘mamma’, that was thought to have chloroform but in July was refuted to be urine. The fluid in the syringe is reported to have urine of some form with chloroform residue. Because the doll was found in the car and the syringe near the body, is this enough to link Casey directly?
Well, I dont think we have all the tests in on a few common items, and I want to remind folks that just because information is released via the Sunshine Laws, we cannot assume it all comes “in”. I can tell very early there is plenty that is not going to pass the threshold of probative vs. inflammatory.
B
If only her abandoned car with her purse on the seat in full view was stolen. Everything else would have fallen into place, but I suspect any criminal worth his salt could smell decomposition and a set up from a mile away.
#221 cmaissol
What a ding-dong I am for actually typing “Medical Nurse” yesterday.
Master of Nursing is what I meant, with MN being the credited initials.
Thank you for clarifiying the that chloroform is no longer used in the operating room.
So, in your opinion, what use or uses (if any) would someone, having the medical credential initials “MN” after their name, have for chloroform?
Another possibility of tying the syringe to Casey, or friends, outside of fingerprints or DNA, is tracking lot numbers to where the syringe was distributed (ie physician’s office). Aside from that, if purchased by Casey directly, it isn’t a stretch to consider that it was paid for by check (someone else’s most likely), or a ‘borrowed’ credit card, which, in either case, could be an even better link than scientific data, that would potentially be argued as faulty or ‘junk science’. Again, we don’t know if any other corroborating evidence exists linking this to Casey. And since we are reading raw evidence without the state’s narrative, we don’t even know if this will be argued in the end.
Does anyone else think that this syringe and Disney bag might have been planted afterwards, and possibly by Lee (at CMA or CMA’s direction) to point the finger at someone else.
Is this what the “…he knows what he’s done…” immunity is all about?
Kleat, cmaissol, and all
I would be interested in your opinions on the findings of the liquid contents of both the syringe and Gatorade bottle. There appears to be quite the mixture of compounds, to say the least. Some of the match compound results, including mechanical and automotive lubricants and oils plus oven cleaner, are strangely leading me to think of the automotive oil change pan that was retrieved by LE with the gas cans from the A’s home.
http://www.wesh.com/news/21540851/detail.html
PDF: Anthony Documents (Nov. 6) Syringe, Bottle
unless I am missing something, Casey’s computer chloroform searches = chloroform and decompo found in casey’s car trunk = chloroform found in bottle with syringe at crime scene. A jury of 10 year olds could see the slam dunk in this
Thanks Shanaghan, for the information on the guy with kill fingers. How about the chloroform guy RM, as a needle source???
I realize I am sort of arguing both sides here, but I see Casey as smart enough to do some cover up, and yet stupid enough to get hurried in dumping the evidence (remains, extra baby stuff and tools). It is not yet clear to me that the gatorade bottle, fluids, plastic case and syringe are not the actual murder weapon. (I am not LE so I can work at this backwards.)
Maybe it is sort of easy to kill a baby–heat of anger?? acc to blink–but the aftermath is a lot messier. Does anybody doubt that Caylee was in the car trunk? The longer Casey drove around in the FLorida sun, the worse her problem got. If she actually saw George and gave him the gas cans, that would have shown her how close she was to disaster. (George claims there was no smell, but by that time George was lying, however badly.) Casey got rid of everything in the trunk, later trying to mop up with Tony L’s paper towels. She dumped the car when she figured out that the smell would just not be cleaned out. Not even super Cindy could erase that smell. Once the car is gone, her lovely new life can start.
It seems IMO Casey snatched a used needle from a guy buddy. I really hope we find out who it was, just to know. I don’t know that a girl would use a blend of testosterone injection, and really Casey doesn’t tend to know girls. Do body builders actually inject in the gym or do they do it in private at home? LE has the plastic casing and must have tried to trace the needle to whoever sold and bought it. Also, it is possible that LE already know where Casey got the chloroform. That would explain the first degree murder charge before the remains were found. If LE has the source of the chloroform AND the “weapon” = death penalty.
Were there 2 bottles with urine in them? Or just one? Can’t go back and read today, and am confused.
Wendy, is it because the lawyer is ‘famous’ that he gets called into HBO specials and FOXNewsrooms? Or is it because he was in the news first, and then he is sought out for the media interviews?
What is his fame based on except public recognition of his name and face, or could it be that he is famous amongst his collegues, apart from any public perception? I doubt he rises above others in his field because he is on tv, but he is ‘famous’ in a ‘tv star’ superficial way. His ‘fame’ and public recognition do not make him better than his collegues who spend their time working instead of hours in the make up rooms for TV appearances.
I think I put the links and pages about the syringe and Gatorade– check that, the pages are there. BTW, there are three named types of testosterone in the lab results, all found together. I assume that the specific ‘blend’ of hormones is specific to a purpose, muscle building/stamina, or treatment of some specific condition. It would be better to speculate on a purpose of testosterones together, vs just generic ‘testosterone’ as a single, all-purpose drug. (just guessing here, but unless we know that the only form of testosterone for every and all purposes, is a combination of those three types, we can’t really guess)
Blink, if the fraud trial is huge, it’s going to impact every innocent person involved with the charges, in a big way. Is it worth it for Amy? She is going to be ripped to shreds, and she has her whole life ahead of her. Is it worth the stress for Shirley Plesea, to also be ripped to shreds by the likes of Todd Macaluso and to a much lesser extent, Baez. I wonder if Ms. Lyon will risk doing the same, if it involves Shirley Plesea, because going into the murder trial with the public knowing she did this, wouldn’t be good.
I think they won’t dare touch Mrs. Plesea or they would isolate themselves from Casey’s family as well, but others, like Amy, likely Ricardo, could be painted in a way that will be a benefit for both cases.
Of course it is worth it. Nobody can think it has not been unofficially explained to those parties the extent of their participation and it’s reaches for justice for Caylee. That said, I look at it differently. There is no other option for Amy and others to have their opportunity to restore their name(s). The direct evidence in the fraud case wil speak for itself. They will plead it out or present no defense. They cannot afford to open any other doors.
B
re: CA’s June 17(?) visit to CS’s house
snipped from website link (caps are mine):
“Nurse Practitioner Career Information
If you are self-reliant, you might want to look into becoming a nurse practitioner. Similar to clinical nurse specialists, nurse practitioners have advanced, master’s-level education. As an NP, you will learn how to diagnose common ailments, perform routine tests, prescribe medication, and work closely with patients to meet their health needs. Nurse practitioners can have their own practice, or work in hospitals and ASSISTED-LIVING FACILITIES.
NPs can provide the same care offered by a physician, and in many cases, they are a patient’s primary health care provider. NPs provide comprehensive, holistic health care for patients of all ages, focusing on individualized care. That means not only diagnosing and treating patient conditions and illnesses, but also WORKING WITH PATIENTS AND THEIR FAMILIES on prevention, wellness, and dealing with the effects of the illness on their daily lives. Many nurse practitioners are also active in patient advocacy and research.”
http://www.nursing-school.org/nursepractitioner.htm
Is there a possiblity, given the June 17(?) visit date to Chris S’s family home, that CA was actually there to see his mother, in relation to the June 15 Father’s Day visit at the ASSISTED-LIVING FACILITY in Mount Dora?
The phone records of both CS’s mother and Cindy were subpoenaed and the status of receiving both records were mentioned in the same LE report. Did the 2 mothers communicate regarding assisted-living.
Blink, Cindy and Casey would have fights in front of the child? How good for the baby could that be? Who would that baby be loyal to (afraid of most or respect most), and would the baby as she matured, come to feel that she was to blame (as she certainly was, through no fault of her own– the rift and jealousy and reasons for control between mother and daughter).
If Caylee were not there, the reason for the jealousy would be ‘gone’, the reason for Cindy being after Casey for her irresponsible behaviours re: the baby, would be gone, and the threat against Casey by having her baby taken away by Cindy, would be gone. Any criticism of Casey’s mothering skills, or even direction ‘to do this with baby now’, would disappear.
The time would soon come that the baby would say things that would betray Casey’s activities to Cindy and others.
Blink re your answer to 242 ..If she cops to a plea with murder with the whole story out there, the fraud trial has taken place..at that point isn’t up to the judge sentence her..meaning it can be LWOP parole and no appeals. I have seen that happen in other murder cases of a heinous nature, where this was at the 11th hour that all pretense was dropped and the defense requested a plea deal. I don’t believe the State will go for 25 to life at this point with the kind of heinous crime this is, the lying she has done, the famliy coverup and evidence (still believe there are fingerprints and the maggot milkshake will tell us what Caylee was given that killed her.)
If Cindy knows the whole thing, then what will this mean for betrayal of public trust as they collected $$$’s from average people to help Kidfinders and themselves find Caylee, pay Dominic Casey to find Caylee, when it was all a sham from early on.
I suspect those jail ‘letters’ kept secret from the jail, will be a key source or excuse for a ‘late as possible’ knowledge of what happened to Caylee, so the public is not made aware of how early Cindy knew Casey had the answers, and knew the baby had met her demise.
It does not work well to say that Casey was fearful of harm, physical violence to herself, her family and yeah, the baby– but I don’t recall any notice of anyone sighting Caylee, to be concerned about risks to their own safety for photographing the child or inadvertantly alerting the child’s captors. (how far does the average cell phone flash extend?– how far away from a child with kidnappers would one safely have to be). That is pretty high risk, to ask someone to involve themselves when there are serious threats. Police never warned anyone– not once that I recall, about approaching Caylee, or approaching the people who might be with her.
It doesn’t work.
I agree Casey left the Disney bag and it’s contents there to try to frame someone..maybe a few people. Interesting that the contents of the trash bag in the car are from Tony’s apt. Wonder where she lifted the bottle, the syringe, etc from?
Oh right, the nanny’s apt..she was a female body builder and used testosterone injections to add muscle mass to her body..no wonder this lady was a 10.
Please, Blink, someone correct me if I am wrong.
Even though we don’t know whether or not the Gatorade can be directly linked back to Casey- can’t the jury REASONABLY consider the searches for chloroform on the computer, the PI Tracy’s statement that Casey spoke of chloroform being used as a knockout drug and the fact that a Gatorade bottle/syringe with traces of chloroform was found near the baby’s head?
It is my understanding that the prosecution does not have to prove how Casey may have obtained the chloroform- just the possibility that it was found at the scene, researched and that she had access to the ingredients needed. Tracy’s testimony would be the cherry on top. Am I wrong?
We don’t hear much about the ’shot girls’ from Fusion who were ‘managed’ by Casey. What sources of substances or connections could they lead Casey to (without involving Tony for whatever reason)? Casey could manipulate people by her friendly bubbly manner and tactics to gain friendship and trust, make promises that would never be kept, and she was in a so-called ‘management’ position over and above those girls ( fwiw), it might make the shot girls look up to her as being older and popular and be potential ‘resources’ for Casey doing what she was regarding the Caylee situation.
Another source of ‘pills’ could be found in medicine cabinets of family members, especially elderly family members, or just friends. What could be accessible to Casey who just dropped over for a visit, a long enough visit of a bf living with parents– could find a variety of meds for the taking, a few pills unnoticed, maybe even old prescriptions around where no one would ever notice a few missing.
It seems that Casey was working regarding Caylee during her 31 days, the key might be what did she mean by ‘other resources’ besides not involving the family or police. She certainly was doing something with ‘resources’– that is likely a partial truth to imply one thing, while meaning another (aka ‘lie’).
If someone plans to commit a murder, do they neatly package the evidence after the fact, back in it’s little packages, and seal the lid of the bottle so the substances are preserved…
AND when was that Disney bag placed there? Necessarily at the same time as the body? The water levels would float that away from the body, if not by a flow of the water, by hurricane winds that could certainly shift it a few feet or more, wrap it around a tree, drop it in a thatch of kudsu vines. Unless it was put there after the windy events, weighted with something so no air got into the bag to lift it where it might not be found as related to anything, or found at all.
Blink- I do not post often but read your Blog at least once a week. I value your opinions and insights and knowledge of the law. I have one question about a possible plea deal.
It is my understanding that Mr Baez could suggest to the DA that his client was willing to cop a plea if the DP were removed. OR
The DA could offer a plea deal to Ms Anthony which could include the removal of the DP, full acceptance of guilt and serve life without the POP.
How could she cop a plea and admit to everything and end up serving only 25 years to life with the POP? Would/Could it be predicated on coming forward and saying,
“Listen. I left my daughter in a shallow tub after my mother screamed at me for something I did not do. I put Caylee in for her bath and when the coast was clear I went out the patio door for a freakin’ cigarette and after a couple of buffs my mother pulled it out of my hand and I went back into the bathroom and saw Caylee face down and in no more than 3 inches of water. It was an accident and I paniced.I couldn’t tell my mohter. She would have chocked me to death. I feared for my life. She slept with me the entire evening and I left the house and returned for her Winnie the Poo blanket and keepsakes. I tried to bury her the best way I could but couldn’t. I lost my mind and simply made her final resting place comfortable. A place where I found comfort as a child.” (I wanted to scream as I typed that. Don’t hold it against me)
Would this have worked when LE went to the home after the second 911 call? Could it work before February 1, 2010? Or will she roll the dice?
Well no, under your scenario they would probably recommend she watch the green mile. There is not going to be some nebulous “accident” and assuredly, an explicit and corroberating explanation of how the duct tape was applied, and of course the postmortem fracture. These facts tell a better story than her in the hypothetical you offered,so no way.
Also, the state will not be approaching a plea deal, no way. The fraud trial is set to commence prior to the Feb 1 deadline to present exculpatory evidence, or macaluso’s petition to withdraw, who knows.
B
What are the chances of chloroform in a syringe in a bottle that is in a Disney bag that is discovered at the crime scene of a dead little girl who used to live up the street? And the little girl’s mother searched for ways to make chloroform on her computer. This is connected to Casey’s “state of mind” at the time of Caylee’s murder. These findings (of chloroform etc.) are not a coincidence or happenstance that it is someone else’s disgarded garbage. What are the odds of that? Prosecuters can put two and two together on this one and get four.
they said they found ” coffin flies” in trunk in plastic bag. Could they contain Caylee’s DNA? also what does testosterone& chloroform together do ? they were in the syringe together? I must have missed a paragraph somewhere. I dont see why they are mixed in same syringe. Isnt chloroform alone deadly enough? Or is she trying to get people to think some ” roid’ junkie killed her?
Blink, does a narcissist lack empathy as Casey appears to do? And about having ‘help’– unless it would be Lee, I can not see someone else contributing to a case of first degree murder through a cover up. Why would anyone do this, especially when it involves a baby. What would be in it for them??
Casey had TIME on her hands, for the past two years, she had time to read books, spend hours per day on the internet (which she admits was her way to use ‘resources’ to help with the Caylee circumstances), she had the reading material in her closet and may have read ‘The Shack’, Edgar Allen Poe’s comprehensive collection of works, rented horror films, enjoyed horror films, watched programs and searched the internet, about kidnappings. Casey was good at putting pieces of ideas from a variety of sources, together into a new fabric of reality to present as a facade to others for her own purposes. She USED people, like a sociopath does, made plans with them and cancelled, to support what she was telling others– ‘yes you can meet my new boyfriend, to be husband next weekend’– oops, something has come up, his mother has cancer, his mother is getting remarried… all those woven bits to convince her own mother, her father, her friends so they believed in what she said as ‘fact’.
There was so much apparent planning, if that Disney bag of things, the cutlery knife, the baby-doll left with urine stains, the cleaning of the baby-doll (by mother Cindy– adding to the ‘help’), but if this was a joint effort, wouldn’t ‘the ‘help’ vet some of her ideas– like why go so far to make sure the bottles are ‘preserved’ with contents. That smacks of set up– Casey’s own lies as they stand, are an amazing set of details that she keeps track of. This is so elaborate ‘help’ to assist a girlfriend– and for what? Sex? Doubt that would carry Casey very far for very long, especially once she revealed her need to have a husband, father for her baby, settle down, have her very own ‘house’. Tony saw through her quickly and didn’t help once he knew she was blatantly lying to him about Caylee’s whereabouts.
Lee is the only one who could be trusted to help– he said he would keep his promise to CMA (s). Annie could also be trusted to play her role, at least to accept things at face value and ‘not ask questions’– she didn’t want to know anything that would help to save Caylee’s life– if that’s true, that is one selfish woman.
I didn’t word this very well earlier - but could the combination of steroid and urine be an attempt by Casey to produce a false positive pregnancy test? Maybe in order to trap Tony?
So for people who think that the gatorade bottle and syringe held casey-made chloroform that was used in the murder, give me your thinking about when and where you think she makes the chloroform, how much she makes, how some or all of it ends up in the plastic gatorade bottle, and when and how the chloroform is administered to the victim.
#12 how could they even clean up their own grand daughter’s decomposition? thats my question.these people are in for a long hard winter.Cindy and George you both better have of the fun that you can have now because I’ve got a feeling that they are going down with their POS.
At what point in this case did Cindy scream these words at Casey,What Have You Done? can anybody remember her asking that of Casey? with the infomation they have now,the best is beig saved for last.
I also want to add that the State will not put a plea deal on the table..the defense will have to ask for that. And the State has no reason to comply other then saving the taxpayers money. Usually the plea deal saves the vic’s family the heartache of a trial and the gory details, and they usually are working with the State. In this case the State is out there alone standing for the vic, without the victim’s family support, so they have no reason to go for lesser charges.
I think that Baez and Lyon’s will have to really come up with a very good plea deal for the State to even think about putting it back on the table and accepting. Baez requested a plea in July of 2008, he got one, Casey let it run out and Baez did not pursue getting it put back at that time. Things have drastically changed from when she was first arrested. So will it be deal or no deal?
WHERE IS EVERYBODY?
They were right here. Blink has blinkette Athletes in tournaments and I am not the parent on the sideline with the blackberry.
Thanks for everyone’s patience.
B
Casey abandoned the car next to a dumpster in the Amscot lot; I believe it was because it smelled so badly from decompositon…and passersby would just attribute that to the stinky dumpster. I don’t think she cared if she ever got it back and was hoping someone would take it. In fact, I think she was counting on it and got really sloppy with what she left in it. She left Caylee’s car seat in it along with her own dirty pants and a purse(correct?)… and some light garbage, just as a possible excuse for the stench. But we know that she (her ego) had to have transportation and I think the friends’ Puerto Rico trip (and Father’s day) factored into the timing of Casey’s plan. She knew she’d have Amy’s car for awhile.
I am loving the entymologist’s report, and find myself appreciating those lovely flies. Definitely NOT junk science. As for the syringe- it would have been reasonable to conceal it in the bottle just as a matter of course- an automatic action done without thought almost as as Casey hides her own thoughts from herself… a hiding inside a hiding. All of that bring said, I doubt there were gloves involved and it would be great if that bottle preserved some latent prints on the plastic wrap and syringe. Thumbprint on the plunger anyone?
Sorry Blink, I had an issue with my computer and it wouldn’t refresh! Go enjoy your babies!
A thought on why the syringe was in the Gaterade bottle- it’s second nature for use nurses to put syringes in a bottle if no sharp container around so no one would stuck by a needle in the trash. I’ve come to the conclusion that Cindy is the “helper”. The testosterone is a plant- making the perp a “him”. JMHO
sorry- use nurses = us nurses.
#248
Blink,
Probative vs. inflammitory
(Evidence vs. hostility)???? Sorry, I don’t understand. Need more laymen words.
#238 Suz Pool chemicals contain a concentration of chlorine so it would only take one tenth. Nail polish remover is acetone.
#279 - columbiares - Very interesting. Cindy put the evidence together and Lee planted it at the site?
#220 Blink is there anything you don’t know, Oh wise one? Thanks for sharing your expertize. Much appreciated.
On page 1479 of the documents released, there is an email to Heather of the FBI regarding the Gatorade bottle contents and any DNA testing needed on the possible urine. It states that Yuri spoke to the State prosecution to see if that was a road they wanted to go down and they declined further testing.
If I am understanding this correctly, I believe the State does not care if the bottle holds urine or not. The toxicology is enough evidence for them. Or they are not going to bring the bottle and its contents in at all. Also seems to point in the direction of no fingerprint testing either.
If any one has a chance to read this, I would love to hear other’s interpretations.Thanks
Momof3: T O N S ! Even a blind squirrel finds a nut I always say when I can speak from personal experience-
I think your observations are astute. Well played imo, by the State.
B
I wonder if Maura has come up with a new woods crime scene timeline considering the entomology report? (not yet worrying about the plant root growth yet).
Thank you Blink.I had to read it a couple of times to really understand it. I value your opinion and knowledge of the facts.
YW
B
#271: Quick answer: NOPE, the mixture of urine and testosterone would not produce a false positive pregnancy test. The rapid pregnancy test “sticks” test for levels of the glycoprotein, human chorionic gonadorophin at levels of 25 mIU/ml within the urine specimen using monoclonal antibody, beta sub unit (B-Hcg) to permit specificity .
#207: The family Baden: Linda Kenney-Baden, Esquire & author is the beloved wife of “one of America’s leading forensic experts” & author, the famous Michael Baden, M. D. She’s wife #2.
Well … but for the bug evidence I’d be really confused, as in the matter of the testesterone found in the chemical composition within the syringe/gatorade bottle. Testesterone is not exclusive to males. Females with high testesterone levels experience everything from tomboyishness (in childhood) to problem acne, and we have already seen Casey’s back in the photos of her tattoo. Could she have been receiving treatments for an acne condition related to high testesterone levels? Could the testerterone found be linked to Casey, somehow? Was it her syringe (supplied by Cindy as well as the meds) with which she self administered meds to lower her “T” level in combating acne? Just a thought.
Gavi
#281: not Blink here Maybe this answer will assist: the evidence presented in trial must be used toward the fact finding mission (probative), not toward the increased anger/emotion generated to the defendant by the jury (inflamatory). Any evidence that is considered exculpatory (information leading toward the not guilty status of the defendant) MUST be presented by the prosecution to the defense, it is the responsibility of the defense lawyer to present it to the jury. Failure to release exculpatory evidence can/will/should result in a actiion against the prosecution, can’t stack the deck with sins of omission!
My sincere thanks joypath. I have read over a few of my responses from this evening and I will make the self-critique that I do not do my best work when pressed for time- my apologies all.
I have been remiss in not asking your opinion on something; if you feel it appropriate to offer an opinion based on known evidence thus far.
What are your thoughts on Caylee’s fractured tibia post mortem? So as not to appear as a loaded question of course, I am referring to the injury in terms of timing now that we have some fairly finite opinions from Dr. Haskell.
B
#250: Masters of Science degree in Nursing= MSN. Can’t think of too many uses of chloroform within the healthcare field beyond those in the clinical laboratory. the danger of this chemical is incredible: can lead to cardiac arrest (MI) due to potassium(K)depletion, sniffing can lead to central nervous system (CNS)shut down.
I thought I read that when Cindy got the car back that she used some of Caylee’s baby wipes, or some type of cleaning wipes to clean the doll because she thought it looked dirty. Does anyone else remember reading that? Would those wipes have any thing in them that would pass as chloroform?
She did, and was specific as to the wipes found in the diaper bag, NOT from the house.
B
#239 Suz. Ha! how true. Casey was not into career advancement of any sort. She was awaiting an unsuspecting policeman, lawyer or indian chief who would marry her and support her until she moved on to bigger and richer chumps.
Wonder if Jesse’s bathroom was the source of the syringe/testosterone when Casey used his shower? Just thought he might have been in to body building.
#264 momof3…your post reminded me of Leonard Padilla’s comment on N. Grace yesterday re Tracey M.
He said that it had been a sad day in his office because of the discovery documents/evidence released yesterday. He said everyone was feeling down and depressed in his office. He said he felt bad because he really tried to give Casey the benefit of the doubt, that the whole thing was an accident, something went bad. He said Tracy M. was feeling particularly bad about the contents of the document release.
Leonard said he was a little confused and asked Tracey, “Did you tell Nick Savage everything that went on in that house?” Then he added, “Because something is off, there.” (I think he meant with Tracey’s feelings.)
Naturally, Nancy didn’t ask him to explain. I can’t count the number of times she asks him for an opinion and then ignores what he says and goes on to another guest without asking him to explain.
I’m not at all sure of Leonard’s motives, I do hope he is really there for Caylee. I do think he looked a bit down on Grace’s show. Not a bit of grandstanding.
With the disclosure here at Blink’s site about Tracey sending Casey money and forwarding E-Mails to Dom Casey, I thought from Leonard’s query to Tracey that Padilla was having second thoughts about a lot of things in this case.
Why that should be, when his stand appeared to be anti-Casey throughout the past year, leaves me perplexed. But what doesn’t about this case?
joypath,
Thank you for clarifying chloroform use in the health care field.
CA likely used or manipulated Chris S. and/or his mother in some capacity. His mother does have an MN after her name (not MSN), so perhaps a connection to an assisted-living facility is a more reasonable theory as opposed to a pharmaceutical one.
joypath, if someone in their late teens to early 20’s was routinely taking a prescribed or legally purchased steroid, would they need to be monitored through urine analysis?
# 277 The OtherD. A bit of higglety-pigglety, here. The “purse” in the car was not a handbag purse, but a bag which carried CDs. Cindy called it Casey’s “work bag”. A misnomer if I ever heard one.
Lee found Casey’s handbag/purse at Tony’s with all her clothes and brought the purse with I.d. and driving licenses home to Hopespring DR. where a female LE officer, and especially Cindy, went through it. According to Lee, Cindy confiscated money which she attributed as belonging to herself. Of course, it was most likely money from Amy’s account.
Lol at the misnomer.
B
Joypath,
Thank you for explaining, much appreicated.
Correct me if wrong, but I don’t see where the syringe was checked for DNA or fingerprints. I can’t imagine that this wasn’t done. Have to believe that we simply haven’t seen these results yet — but why??? In my ideal (imaginary) world, the syringe will be tied to the Anthony’s house, where George used it for testosterone injections for ED. And the barrel of the needle will contain Caylee’s DNA, and Casey’s fingerprint will be on the syringe. Seriously, I really hope that the syringe can be tied to the house. I’m assuming that law enforcement already knows if there is some connection to the crime. Any inside information on this Blink??????
#290: Hi Blink! That tibia fracture could have occurred at ANY time post mortem or even peri mortem, we know it was NOT pre-mortem because the histological analysis did not show repairing osteocytes or neutrophils. None of the bones showed any evidence of pre-mortem abuse and subsequent healing properties. Now this answer is straight from memory, rereading the post report might modify my opinion (heck, observing the photos would solidify my opinion but that isn’t going to happen!. Given the manner of carelessnes that Casey conducted herself, I’m venturing a guessitmate that the “athletic” Miss Anthony tossed her daughter’s corpse as far as she could, after of course dragging the 35 bag on the asphalt or against the curb or perhaps smashing it against the car bumper et al.
YUCK! Just relating that behavior makes me furious!
Thank you Kind Joy, I am going to research the ole link for you, because if I recall, Dr. Schultz puts specific emphasis on the jagged edge of the fracture and the coloration versus the rest. I got the distinct impression he stopped short of providing further input.
B
1. The body was put in this location [the woods where found] AFTER decomp started, but BEFORE complete disarticulation of the skeleton.
(the clustering of vertebrae at the scene– the vertebrae were held together still when animal activity moved them away from the location of the bags.)
This means the body was put here BEFORE skeletonization was complete.
2. The roots growing into the vertebrae and bags indicate that the body was placed there months before being found.
3. The maggots and the species say that decomp was advanced to attract the species that seek out late decomp while the body was still in the trunk of Casey’s car.
No wonder the defense was trying to cause the findings at the crime scene to be thrown out of evidence.
So far, everything is supporting the theory that the body was moved to the crime scene at an advanced stage of decomposition. Now, what did that male in a ball cap, driving Casey’s car as maybe seen by George twice, have to do with all of this?
Blink– why did the state not test for DNA in the urine? The defense will clearly want to do their own testing so they can attack the state’s motive for not doing the testing, won’t they? Is the validity of any result not going to provide an answer (too degraded, OR, not possible to determine, or low likelihood) of determining whose urine it was? It would also be possible for someone to contaminate the urine with a bit of blood or other dna source, to confuse the results. The state could always opt to test that later, or test it for other indicators to narrow whose it is or is not, if that’s possible in the degraded state– OR, the state KNOWS whose it is already.
Whatever Casey was doing, she was ‘thinking’– there is a lot of scheming going on as she used ‘other resources’– her work to piece the puzzle together enough to send the police down the wrong path, or to have the police fail to catch her or if they did, to succeed in a conviction.
I wanted to share a few things that were mentioned about needles and nurses. I have worked both Dr. office and home health. Someone would be stupid and it would be VERY difficult if not impossible to take a used needle from a red sharps container.
Home health patients that require shots or blood draws .. the nurse will either leave a small red sharps container at the home OR have a old coffee can with lid for use.
Not one nurse I know, including myself would keep a big red sharps container in the trunk of the car. A small red container that can be snapped shut and reopened are used and carried into patients homes if you are covering for another nurse and unsure if she left container inside.
A bottle would NOT be a good idea for a used needle, never once have I seen this done by a nurse.
The theroy that Cindy and the menopause.. The hormone replacment shots that used to be given were IM or “in the muscle” so the needle would HAVE to have been at least 1 or 1 1/2 inches long.. this is a short needle so it would have to be SQ (in fat) or ID (under skin).
She would have to have injected Caylee IV “in the vein” for immediate results… IV takes years of practice to do with a wiggling child.
Dr.s offices leave syringes in drawers.. drug clinics or health departments have syringes for exchange.. syringes are pretty easy to come by, especailly this size
Also, the time of the leaf fall is important: “the bones had to be decomposed and scattered prior to the leaves falling and covering up the bones during the fall season of 2008″ because other than the bones in the bags, “the majority of the bones were located under the leaf layer.”
The red maples in the area would have produced a high leaf fall during autumn, and Dr. Hall stated that this would definitely occur by November and possibly as early as October, depending upon the temperature.
So, Jim Hoover’s video of mid-November, could show the leaf fall– Dom Casey poking through the leaves– he could have hit something and not realized it– or realized it and not said anything.
Interesting– the left tibia is a large bone, second largest in the body, so it makes a fairly big target. Is it strange that the damage on this bone is not described more fully in the report– ie: consistent with a blunt force, like being stepped on/crushed, or fractured by a sharp instrument, like a metal skewer designed to drive into the ground? A part of the tibia is formed/joined at 3 years of age– could this be a softer more vulnerable area to damage at this age?
It’s still strange that this postmortem damage is not described with any further descriptions of the type of damage or where the damage specifically occurred (ie: fracture(s), chips, crushing, etc.)
There is also no description of the condition of any fracture, and whether there was ‘muck’ in the fracture line, or whether it was clean, perhaps post-flooding damage.
Wouldn’t that be something, if Dominic Casey had stepped on, or damaged a bone with the metal prod– that would throw the theory of ‘proof’ right out the window, as if much more is needed than the evidence reports themselves.
Could this be why Dominic Casey is fighting so hard to not give any depositions? He knows what he has done? (remember, Dominic Casey went into those dense woods, with SUNGLASSES ON, and he walked around while talking on his phone– not looking where he was stepping, being incredibly careless.)
I wonder if the investigators noticed any pattern to the layering of the leaf layer– that is, with receding of mucky water, the leaves could be somewhat stuck together as the water dries– from experience, leaves that have dropped and are dry, can easily be raked up individually, but once they become wet for a period of time, they stick together in sort of layers.
IF the investigators were observing the leaf layers in detail, they could observe disturbances– holes that show something was skewered through several of them, or digging and shuffling leaves around by someone looking for something– brushing them off, disrupting how they were naturally laying and stuck down, especially I’d guess, in the lower layers of leaves that were on top of the muck layer and above any bone.
This type of man-made disturbance might be quite obvious, if the investigators were careful enough to peel away the leaf layers looking for this type of recent and deliberate human disturbance. The video shows Dominic Casey’s ‘technique’ (or lack thereof).
Hi all,,found this info on women taking testosterone..some take for different reasons,,theres also an article on ovarian disease where the woman takes testosterone injections..Could Caseys female problem that cindy talked about before be relative to this??Just wondering..Blink I really appreciate the info you give us on your site..Haven’t found any site as well documented with explanations as well as you.. thank you so much
OOPS sTestosterone Therapy
Testosterone Therapy for Women
Women normally have circulating in their blood three major sex hormones: oestrogen, testosterone and progesterone. Each of these is produced by the ovaries. Oestrogen is also made throughout the body but particularly in body fat. Testosterone can be made by the adrenal glands and in other parts of the body from hormones (DHEA and DHEAS) that are produced by the adrenal glands.
At the time of natural menopause or surgical removal of the ovaries, oestrogen and progesterone levels fall precipitously.
Testosterone and DHEAS levels however, fall more gradually with increasing age such that a woman in her forties has on average only half of the testosterone and DHEAS circulating in her bloodstream as does a woman in her twenties. After a woman has her ovaries removed by surgery testosterone levels can fall by up to 50 per cent. However testosterone does not change across menopause, although this varies somewhat between women.
Testosterone and other related hormones (DHEA and DHEAS) in the body (also known as androgens) have known physiological roles in women. Firstly, oestrogen is actually made from testosterone and DHEA, and without the ability of our bodies to make testosterone we cannot make oestrogen. Testosterone and DHEA appear to have direct independent effects in different parts of the body, and some women may experience a variety of physical symptoms when their blood levels fall. Such symptoms may include:
Impaired sexual interest (loss of libido or sexual desire), and lessened sexual responsiveness
Lessened wellbeing, loss of energy
Testosterone therapy may be beneficial for some women who have had their ovaries surgically removed or in some who have significant symptoms in the form of loss of libido, fatigue and diminished wellbeing.
Caution
Testosterone therapy will not be the answer for someone who has a poor partner relationship, depression or poor wellbeing due to other causes.
orry long day..heres the article..
Can’t sleep-leg covered in shingles..sigh. Suz- that’s what I’m thinking- dumped by Lee.
I agree Sheri- no nurse would dispose of a needle in a bottle if a sharp container available. If you’re planting evidence in the woods that you want found…
What do you guys make of ZFG #? whose office was broken into during the missing Caylee month? The lady killed at Blanchard Park? I’m thinking any connection is far-fetched, but with this case- heck who knows.
Blink, does ‘postmortem damage’ mean fracture?
Joy has already answered, but here is some of the report for reference– I already had it typed out, so I’ll add pages and the link to make finding it quick:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/6440.6475.pdf
(will put in the ‘pdf’ pagination)
“The distal metaphysis of the left tibia sustained postmortem damage to the distal end. The margin was ragged in appearance and the margin and cancellous bone of the metaphysis exhibited a lighter color.” (pg 20/36)
(note that this damage is not specified as ‘animal damage’ as described in the report for the proximal ends of the femora– the damage was attrib. to animal chewing and said to have caused several fractures as well as punctures pits and ragged borders on the proximal ends. Because the report does not suggest animal damage for the tibia, the damage would be something ‘other’ than caused by animals)
“Area C only included the left tibia diaphysis.” [pdf pg 26]
(this is the only bone found in this area– again no note of carnivore damage noted on the tibia, whereas bones located in Area F, do have animal damage).
Would this imply that the tibia was not dragged away by animals– therefore it was deposited away from the bag after decomposition, vs the grouping of bones in area F?
If the body was deposited in the ‘initial stages of decomp’ (pg, 27), how could this bone have been flung away from the bag as it was tossed? Would it have been completely disarticulated in the early stages, even for a toddler?
(note on the location of ‘Area C’ where the tibia was found– it seems to be in the same elevation as the the bag at ‘Area A and not as if flung beyond the bag– it’s more or less to the right side, as if standing at the edge of the pavement and looking into the woods. )
Here is an interesting observation from the U of F College of Medicine, Forensic Toxicology Laboratory, in a consultation letter to Dr. G.:
(See pg 35 of pdf linked above)
“… the results are as follows–
1. Volatiles were not detected in aliquots of bone, bone marrow, hair, and soil…. This includes, but is not limited to, chloroform, ethanol, acetone, isopropanol, methanol and toluene. Products of decomposition were not detected.”
Note that last sentence!! In the car, products of decomposition (ie: ‘Junk Science”) were noted when one would expect them to be noted, assuming the science is sound. We know that the body was fully skeletonized 3-4 months prior to being recovered and these new tests run on the bones. Therefore, no decomposition products detected– and also the main report states that no odour of decomposition was noted in the black bags– only a woodsy smell, and no signs of grease on the bones– all decomp was gone.
So, the decomp products were detected when expected to be detected, and no decomp products detected when not expected. The defense will of course argue that the car itself, provided those ‘junk science’ results– remember, the two cars to prove that one!! Two of how many — right– that’s a good solid bit of research.
Excellent research contributions Kleat, on this issue. I tought I might sum up where I am to throw out a perspective-
One of the issues not clear to me, is although we are seeing basic established timelines as to when Caylee was put in the woods, I believe a much clear depiction is necessary to establish or eliminate the possibility of Caylee being buried initially in the Anthony backyard and then put in the woods, or is the intimation that Caylee was put in the trunk prior to advanced decomp onset and then -Hold-
Rephrasing in the middle of my thought as I realized I am overcomplicating my question. Will the evidence reflect a definitive sequence, supported by the evidence, of Casey’s actions with the corpse of her child from death to discard?
Because in my mind, in this case, they must.
B
(now, with that, will await the experts analysis– just putting out the report info– that’s the easy part– or sitting back now and waiting for others to add the knowledge, that’s easy too!!
THANKS!! awaiting the discussion and arguments….
(and we have not heard about the soil testing yet from the back yard– that’s more fodder for the ‘ it’s junk scientologists’)
Good Point, it is my personal opinion that result is key. We have also not heard if the “weed eater” fabric found at the scene has been tested forensically, and against other known samples at the Anthony home.
B
(it couldn’t be possible that the single tibia was not with the original package and tossed in separately– could it?)
No. If you think about it ( still cant bring myself to be more graphic, maybe joypath can articulate this better than I for sure)
you get your answer really from the positioning of the femora/prox, and also what proved to me Caylee could not have been wearing those shorts when she was dumped.
A most unpleasant thought, but with the piercing description and what we know about intact vertebrae clusters, is there anything indiginous in that area other than a gator that could accomplish this level of activity? Apologies I know.
B
It is bugging me newly again now about Casey saying that she had help pushing the car into the Amscot - how did the car - out of petrol - get where it was given that it’s unlikely due to noone coming forward and owning up to helping her push it, that indeed she was helped. I have just done a 5 hour hike so not up to scouring for links for which I apologise but did not George turn up with petrol cans PLUS I recall reading that when George collected the car the guy at that collection place found it odd that George mentioned Amscot and the collection guy had not even told him that was where the car was towed from?????
Joypath
My question was way at the top and likely missed, so I wanted to re-post:
Does pheno refer to the presumptive testing using phenolphthalein in the serology report? Or something else? If I understand correctly (and I’m sure I don’t), it brings out the ‘red’, and the ‘hemo’ would refer to the confirmation of hemoglobin (with red blood cells), thereby distinguishing the ‘red’ from other potential protein stains that aren’t blood? There were a couple of positive phenos, but no positive hemos.
Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t believe that the testosterone in the needle has anything to do with Cindy. I haven’t read anywhere that testosterone helps symptoms of menopause at all. I have read that a cream version might be prescribed for women with a diminished sex drive, but never an injectable. That sounds extreme. Aren’t woman more likely to be prescribed
synthetic female hormones in tablet form for heat (hot) flashes, etc?
#300_Kleat
All great points, as usual.
“3. The maggots and the species say that decomp was advanced to attract the species that seek out late decomp while the body was still in the trunk of Casey’s car.
No wonder the defense was trying to cause the findings at the crime scene to be thrown out of evidence.”
BINGO….and it has been remarkably quiet. (Which I believe is better for the client, rather than spewing ridiculous tales at this point).
Mark Hawkins’ deposition was never released, correct? I might be missing it, but I sure can’t find it. I think it will be a big piece of interesting evidence when we hear it.
What do you think Casey would have done had Cindy gave her “one more day”?
A while back when the state thought there might be sedatives involved in this murder they tested Caylee’s hair, but we never saw any test results from bone or bone marrow, which would preserve any drugs or chemicals that entered her body. So many times it’s the evidence we dont see that is so important.
Im also wondering about the receipts that Lee turned over and what those reveal.
#314 kiwibird,
I’m sure it can be argued whether or not the car was truly out of gas. I’ve wondered if Casey sat there with the car running until it ran out, pulling in to that spot right when she knew it was low enough to run out. I’ve always found it odd that in a case with such media coverage, the “two guys” she claimed helped her push it, have never come forward. Who knows, I suppose with this case it’s possible those two men may have been transients of sorts, with no television. As for your question regarding George mentioning Amscot prior to the towyard guy telling him first…… I do recall in George’s police interview, he mentioned that when he opened the certified letter, it had the time and date the car was towed, also the street and cross street as well. To the very best of my recollection, it also said the car had been towed from the Amscot parking lot. I’ll go back and listen to that piece of the interview again, as I couldn’t swear to it, but almost. Not sure I really answered any of your questions, but as I said, I will listen again, but pretty positive that’s why he mentioned Amscot prior to the tow guy mentioning it.
#316 westsidehudson,
I tend to agree with you that the testosterone had nothing to do with Cindy, and I also feel the syringe had nothing to do with her as well. I know my theory on that is wayyyyyyy out in left field, but in this case, anything is possible. I believe it’s possible that the syringe was initially used for steroids, and later could have been filled with chloroform or whatever mixture Casey may have put in there. I’ll even go as far as to say (as I did previously) that if the urine found was anywhere near the gatorade bottle or syringe, in this case….it’s even possible that syringe was used 3 times. Once for the steroids, once for a urine test, and once for the chloroform. As I said in a previous post, I’ve read that people trying to pass a drug screen will often tape a syringe (with clean urine) to the inside of their thigh, or even their genitals, if it’s a monitored test.
Wow, the taped syringe info is a first for me.
B
#284 momof3, it’s confusing, but the urine that they declined to test for dna was in the crystal lite bottle (fbi q241—osco q81) from the trash bag in the vehicle, not in the gatorade bottle (fbi q238—osco q90) from the disney bag.
282 ada, how, when and where did casey get the pool chemicals? if from the shed, how did she get in? she had to break in on june 24 to steal the gas.
sustanon is a brand of steroid that contains those four types of testosterone in the lab report:
Sustanon 250
Chemical Name: (Testosterone Blend)
Drug Class: Injectable Anabolic Steroid
1 milliliter of Sustanon 250 Contains:
30 mgs Testosterone Propionate
60mgs testosterone Phenylpropionate
60mgs testosterone Isocaproate
100mgs testosterone Decanoate -100 mg
17b-hydroxy-4-androsten-3-one
Testosterone base + 4 different esters
Propionate, Phenylpropionate, Isocaproate, Decanoate
Formula (base): C27 H40 O3
Molecular Weight (base): 288.429
Molecular Weight, Esters:
Propionate: 362.5082
Phenylpropionate: 438.6058
Isocaproate: 404.5886
Decanoate: 460.6958
Formula (base): C19 H28 O2
Melting Point (base): 155
Manufacturer: Organon
Effective Dose (Men): 500-2000mg/ week
Effective Dose (Women): Not recommended
Active life: Up to 3 weeks
Detection Time: 3+ months
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio:100/100
#319 JCGitruh,
I’ve been wondering about the receipts lately as well. I’ve been meaning to ask if anyone knows if the Winnie the Pooh blanket they found was the comforter from the nursery set in Caylee’s room. I ask that for a couple of reasons…. The first being Cindy’s FBI video, she said she didn’t notice the blanket missing for a long time. If in fact it’s the comforter she is talking about, I find that hard to believe because the comforter was replaced in the first Greta interview done at the Anthony home. So, either Cindy did notice the blanket missing and went out and replaced it so the house would look perfect for the interview….OR, Caesy replaced it at some point prior to admitting Caylee was gone. I say that because…. In Cindy’s police interview, she is yammering on about Jesse lying, and when the Detective corners her about lying, right after she starts bawling (fake) in an attempt to throw the conversation off of her lies….Detective asks her where the receipts for her JCPenney card are. She says, “I’ve already looked at them, there’s nothing on them.” To which he replies…that’s the answer I can’t have. I need those receipts, because I know Casey went all over the place with that card. I’ve always wondered if she replaced the comforter on the bed via using Cindy’s card, or if it is the other theory in my mind….that Cindy actually did notice the comforter gone earlier than she admits, and then at some point replaced it for the Greta interview…. I’d love to hear other people’s thoughts/ideas on this????
raccoons and possums are native wildlife that might scatter bones.
and from an article on decomp, “The most important animals that are typically involved in the [decomp] process include larger scavengers, such as coyotes, dogs, wolves, foxes, rats, and mice. Some of these scavengers also remove and scatter bones which they will then ingest at a later time.”
#316 Re: testosterone
I know a few years ago that testosterone for women was not available in the patch and only available from compounding pharmacists. A friend of mine received a prescription from her physician to help with low libido. It came by mail packaged in daily doses in small syringes to be applied to the skin. It was a very creamy liquid preparation.
blink, if the syringe concept is new to you (I’d remove the needle, personally, were i up to such malice), then are you familiar with this, um, prosthetic delivery device made to look like the real thing? (for boys)
warning: clutch the pearls, there are graphic images of “The Whizzinator” http://www.ureasample.com/buy-drug-test-solutions/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=1072
FTLOG. Put down the beverages before clicking and have an eyewash station nearby.
B
Kiwibird,
I found the transcript about the car being towed from Amscot. Actually I see all the information I noted, EXCEPT that it was towed from Amscot. So, now I’m unsure how George knew that, as well as the tow yard guy being unsure how he knew it.
The transcript pages you will want to read are pages 63-69, and I’ll give you the website, it might lead you directly to the transcript, if not, on the left hand side of the page, pick the Transcripts released 7/30/09, George Anthony Summer 08 Interview. Then, skip down to the pages I specified. That’s where the conversation about the towing begins and ends. Might answer a few questions for you.
Sorry for taking up so much space this morning, just happened to be sitting here reading and found a few post I could reply to and maybe help answer a few questions….generally I’m just more of a reader, lurker, everyday.
Blink, Kleat, and all, Good Morning
In regards to the liquid contents of the syringe and Gatorade bottle, there appears to be quite the mixture of compounds, to say the least. Some of the match compound results, including mechanical and automotive lubricants and oils plus oven cleaner, leading me to think of the automotive oil change pan that was retrieved by LE with the gas cans from the A’s home. In GA’s “secret” meeting with LE in the early days, he talks about changing everyone’s car oil. I would be interested in your thoughts on these found compounds.
http://www.wesh.com/news/21540851/detail.html
PDF: Anthony Documents (Nov. 6) Syringe, Bottle;
latter pages that are presented sideways contain the test results I refer to
wendy, IIRC in the previous doc dump (the 1405 pages) said they couldn’t determine if that blanket was from the set as it did not have a label.
#322
This is from your post.
“NOTE: AS DESCRIBED THE REACTION DOES NOT PRODUCE ENOUGH CHLOROFORM FOR EXTRACTION. YOU’LL NEED TO USE AT LEAST A GALLON OF BLEACH AT A TIME (AND SUITABLE AMOUNT OF ACETONE) IN ORDER TO RECOVER ANY USEABLE QUANTITY OF CHLOROFORM.”
I guess it’s possible that she made a whole gallon, ignored the warnings about using plastic, and poured stuff into the small bottle without trying to extract the chloroform—even though she had a syringe for that purpose?
Or it’s possible that she didn’t read the part about having to make a big batch or about using glass, and her intention was to use the syringe to inject the chloroform, not to extract it, but she ended up injecting a mix of whatever was left over from the chemical reaction. If left to settle, the contents of the bottle would have separated into leftover acetone on top, water in the middle, and little bits of chloroform at the bottom.
This is mine.
#238 Suz Pool chemicals contain a concentration of chlorine so it would only take one tenth. Nail polish remover is acetone.
If anyone wanted to make chloroform in a small amount, it would make sense to use a concentrated version. I didn’t imply anything else.
Guess I just don’t understand the fixation that the testosterone was used by Cindy. I still think it’s possible Casey took the syringe from the house, where it had been used by George for testosterone injections. Here is info showing that injections are a method used in this treatment for men — “Testosterones enanthate or cypionate may be administered in doses of 200, 300, or 400 mg every 2 to 4 weeks.48 The 200-mg injections maintain normal testosterone levels for approximately 2 weeks, while 300-mg levels will maintain serum testosterone levels in the eugonadal range for approximately 3 weeks. The 400-mg doses, while obtaining higher peak values, will not maintain eugonadal levels beyond the 3-week limit. In hypogonadal men, these agents will produce an improvement in libido, sexual function, potency, energy level, and mood if these abnormalities are due to the androgen depletion.42 Increased sexual aggressiveness and overall aggressive behavior during peak levels of injectable testosterone have been reported,46 and careful counseling about these mood and behavioral changes in patients undergoing injectable testosterone therapy is essential. These adverse effects are rare, however, and testosterone enanthate has become the most widely used agent for exogenous testosterone replacement in the United States. It is safe, cost-effective, and convenient.” Taken from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1476110/
blink, why would the prosecution have to follow the baby from point/place of killing, to the placement of the body backyard, and/or car, to ultimate location? Because not every murder committed and successfully prosecuted, does this.
What about Scott Peterson (sp–)? Maybe that’s a bad example, but who is to say that there wasn’t an intermediate holding location? What about cold cases that are solved and able to get a capital conviction with a body found years later? No intermediate–
And if there was an intermediate with another person involved, it was a horrible job– that person would want to protect themselves if they really were going to help and risk their own freedom, and help in a way that wouldn’t place the body right near home, where it WOULD eventually be found.
IF Casey had help, the body would NOT have been there if the person knew it was a body. Maybe it could be explained away as their dead pet really really overweight small dog, or a neighbour’s atheletic fence climbing dog that Casey killed without her parents knowledge because the dog was coming into their fenced yard to attack the little ones at night (some crazy story but I’m sure Casey could do better than I have).
I think investigators have to be able to accept the less than palatable scenarios also, that Casey might have done to help her move what she had to move.
We need to know more about how things were wrapped, what was not in the ’shroud’ (and what is that referring to? Shroud as an article such as a blanket, or the whole layered bagging as ‘the shroud’).
What was the positioning of the two black bag layers inside the crush bag– presumably the ends that were ripped apart, were at the top of the crush ‘barrel’. Or, the outer black bag was open at its top, not tied, the inner black bag tied at it’s tie end, put into the second black bag ‘tie first’– this makes a lot of sense rather than just doubling a bag and having both ties at the same end (that is it makes sense if the first bag might leak from the top near the handler, but makes less sense in a secure ‘double-bagging sense because leak out the handle top would only have a single layer of plastic to protect it as the bag is dropped in, shoved in– clearly an awkward thing to do).
But why not seal the second black bag in the same way by tying the existing tie cord? I am sure I read that it was found open– unless the second black bag was added as an afterthought, because of a rip, and the first bag was already in the ‘crush’.
Just scenarios–
What needs to be explained, is when the bag was tossed into the woods (dragged in, heaved in, how did the skull get to where it was at and settled in the muck, and how did that large tibia, get to it’s placement and orientation, and what has the discolouration to do with anything. The discolouration if not related to the bone’s natural components, might indicate some weathering on one place or another, or different light/air exposure, rotting vegetation or muck on one part, not on another. (angled on the topography so part in water for a longer time than an exposed end for an example– the topography was varied, also there were large tree roots or trunks upon which the bone could have rested on an angle– and if this were the case, it could have been stepped on and fractured but it could have completely broken.
Blink, I dont’ know about indiginous species other than the rattlesnake found at that swamp. It’s a tight space for vultures to get into and they would have moved things around a lot more I’d guess. They would also have been noticed hanging out, but then there was the hurricanes and that put a damper on flight. There would definitely be crows but they could have done a lot more creative opening of bags– they are too smart not to figure out a puzzle.
Domestic pet dogs, well fed at home, not running in a pack, could happen on the scene and investigate, maybe make a feeble attempt at moving a bone, but not really wanting to do anything serious with it– can’t imagine a dog doing that unless forced to eat carrion by hunger. Maybe a bird like a raven, or other large bird making an attempt. If it was moved from the bag.
I’m not going any farther than that– not without anatomy course by Blink re: the shorts, and I suspect that is not going to happen anytime soon… in the meantime, so much else to learn that we just haven’t got info on yet.
Kleat, as we know the defense is going to to be built on someone other than Casey put Caylee there, I do think in this case they need to to demonstrate the events fairly convincingly.
B
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/8412112/Casey-Anthony-Eric-Baker-death-certificate Unrelated to current subject matter, just wanted to point out eric baker was born march 8 1989,which would have made him 15 years old at the time of caylee’s conception,his middle name is fredreick not james.casey or someone fudged his birthyear,and middle name,in her myspace memorial comment to him.did cindy actually have this guys death certificate?why/ whats up with this story?
suz, interesting– esp. it’s ‘detection life’ (which would be a ’safe’ estimate for detection when metabolized by a human, not necessarily detection of the unused drug– THAT might just be the clue to explain why no steroids in the well degraded urine if the urine contained the donor’s steroids vs added steroids to the urine after the fact)
Gotcha, Blink– yes, makes a lot of sense! Thanks!!
susanm, interesting… now would that be stat. rape in Florida as a ‘one night’ stand? Oh yeah, another story was that it was a friend of Casey’s who was in town for the weekend– can’t keep all their stories straight.’
FWIW in the case of Jennifer Short her remains were found thru a family pet who was seen playing with her skull. Had the dog not have been playing and someone saw it at the time, she may never have been found. I was in the area just 2 weeks earlier which is another story altogether, but felt like she would be found there nearby. That one still freaks me out daily.
Thank you to all the brains posting, I’m in lurking mode but definitely taking it all in.
Blink, it is interesting that Dr. G’s report did not go into detail about a tibia ‘fracture’, just called it damage. I wonder if that was one of the pieces of info that was ‘withheld’ and the later report released added ‘fracture’ and more about the discolouration locations– I didn’t see that last night reading. I’ll look again for the later report next time.
Do you speculate that the cause of the jagged fracture could be made by a crushing type blow, bone on rock for example? (intentional, for some purpose, or unintentional in transport?)
I dont think I am ready to speculate until I can get an anthropologic weigh-in on that fracture in terms of post-mortem timeline.
B
(always good policy to go back and review what Blink’s library has to offer– that’s next!)
This is worth the time to read IMO.
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/
Wendy, page 9588 talks about the undetermined status of the pooh blanket http://www.wftv.com/download/2009/1009/21252103.pdf
ada, yes, i got what you were saying both times, but thanks for reiterating since I didn’t acknowledge your point—-sorry ’bout that, but your point made me think of an old question of mine as to why she broke into the shed to steal the gas cans instead of using the key. Some folks here speculated that she didn’t know where the key was, so then it made me wonder what they think she made the chloroform out of, if she did make chloroform, and if she used pool chemicals, how she got ‘em without the key.
I’m caught up in chloroform wonderment right now.
Regarding the testosterone and possible sources:menopausal women use testosterone replacement to help with low libido. It comes from compounding pharmacies as cream or gel, or can be given every two or three weeks as injection. It is becoming more commonly prescribed due to concerns over the pharmacutical hormones and side effects.Some younger women use these as well if their hormones are imbalanced. I know because I use them.
Side effects in women can include hair growth, voice lowering and agressive behavior. (Cindy?)
Also, an old age home such as Caylee’s grampa was in would probably have patients who took these injections regularly as well.
#294 MsEnscene–I saw that NG episode with LP also, and his words struck me the same way. From past comments by him that I remember, I think he had felt perhaps Caylee’s death was accidental. I think ‘the office was down’ because of the possibility of the syringe being connected to her death, which makes it more likely that her death was purposeful.
I’ve never felt that it was accidental, I’ve always felt she killed her in a rage–I think she had fantasized about killing her but had not actually planned it out. An event (argument with Cindy?) triggered her rage and with that fantasy of killing Caylee being so increasingly ready in her mind, it happened. Sloppy but manipulative cover-up to follow. But even though that’s what I’ve always thought, the idea of using a syringe (I know it hasn’t been really connected yet) on a child is horrifying and I wonder if that is what LP and his office was having a tough time dealing with. Cause I do believe they felt she was responsible for Caylee’s death…maybe just hoping it wasn’t quite as evil as it looks to be?
so, kleat, are you thinking that the urine bottle from the crystal lite bottle in the vehicle trash bag is related to the gatorade bottle in the disney bag?
the gatorade bottle smelled like household cleaner (what exactly does that mean, i wonder?) and its liquid had a steroid blend as well as alcohol, chloroform, vegetable oil, and citrus flavoring (the latter two which I reckon could be either from the unknown household cleaner or the gatorade itself?)
the crystal lite bottle had a urine smell, and also contained water.
Hey, what are they doing sniffing bottles they think have chloroform in them, anyway?
kleat, i always assumed she placed the body in the first trash bag, tied the handles, the placed it into a second bag because it was a heavy load, but didn’t tie the handles as bag 2 was just for added strength, then put the whole kit and kaboodle into the krush for super ease of carrying AND because it still looked like a really obvious dead body in those trash bags. but it’s hard to tell anything from the evidence except that the black bags were inside the laundry bag (Ms. Fanning gets this wrong in her book, ha!) and one was tied.
That sustanon steroid combo is for testosterone replacement rather than the kind Geo would have shot into his bad knee (and the doc would have done that for him anyway) so it is looking more like a bodybuilding illegal steroid again.
Not to be presumptuous, but some are rolling with the idea that Casey was using Propionate steroid injections herself? If true, how noticeable would injection marks be? She certainly loved her short sleeved shirts and tanks tops.
#327 re: urine sample kits
You have got to be kidding me!
Forgive me if this has already been brought upo, but just thinking. The gatorade bottle that was found, wouldn’t they have done a dna test around the lid of that bottle for possible saliva?
suz
if memory serves me right. lee had made a statement that they had the key hid from casey in a tool box or something of the sort.
back to lurking and reading.
I have a question about the Disney bag and how it got there. Was this thrown at the same time as Caylee and landed right by the body? Was this inside the trash and laundry bags? Seems so stupid to throw this type of evidence with the body…
Suz, Thank you. You are correct it was the Crystal Light bottle and contents. Page 1481 is email regarding the Gatorade bottle Q238 and the shringe Q 240.11 and its contents Q238.1 Says that these will be sent to DNAI for analysis. Were the results contained in this doc dump? Or is the State holding these for a while longer?
It seems more likely to me that the Testosterone would have belonged to George…For his many Workman Comp cases (injury)…or to feel like a stud again.(smile)
Todd, think I recall that in some of the FBI docs– describing the swabbing etc.
Ragdoll, why go to all this trouble to implicate yourself? She may want to go down for this (at least as a willing risktaker in this high stakes game), but I’d guess if that were the case, it’s to bring someone else down with her, or do as much harm along the way as possible.
suz, there’s a way to do that without too much risk.
It seems to make sense to link the car to the crime scene, if that’s what Casey did– the car was already linked by the body, so fitting in Casey’s kidnap scenario, to link the ‘abandoned/towed’ car also, to the same person or persons.
It is reported that there was a plastic wrapper that reads: Disposable syringe kit with the syringe
My heart aches to think of what this baby was subjected to in her final minutes….my head keeps hearing, “CMA…CMA..” those allusions sent a chill up my spine when he said them…and today as I finished reading here…came back as clear as the day I watched that newscast. Thanks to all for your willingness to utilize your intelligence, time and concern for this child and other victims. This is as much a ministry as any mission trip I have ever been a part of….and each of you here have special gifts. We are called to use our gifts and the good Lord sees your good deeds. I cannot add anything scientifically, but know you are each being prayed for…now and in the days ahead.
chica, yeah, both geo and lee talk about where the shed key(s) are kept. i thought lee said that everyone in the family (including casey) knew where they were, but I could be wrong. i’ll go back and look.
kleat, uh oh, I have too many posts on here so i am not sure what you are referring to with there being a way to do that without too much risk (something about the trash bags and laundry bag?)
I do have a question for you, though. i can’t find where dr. g talks about any tibia damage — just where she helped i.d. a tibia on 12/13, and then how they took part of the tibia for dna analysis. Are you thinking of one of the reports by the anthropologist? If so, I think the damage he is talking about is to the part of the tibia that would still have been cartilage (it gradually turns into bone as you age and grow taller). i’ve spent all day looking at tibia related things (pictures and diagrams of cancellous bone, gory surgeries). I think i can imagine a scenario where the shorts could have initially been on the body, but blink could still be right that they weren’t.
soulsister, the disney bag seems to have been really near the skull, but not in the laundry bag. this whole doc is helpful, but page 3480 shows how close http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html
“IN PACKAGES” — lettering found at the crime scene, as were the ‘packages found packaged inside the Disney bag, in fact, packages within packages (Gatorade bottle with contents packaging materials surrounding packaged syringe). (was someone saying ‘pay attention’ with words??!)
“BIG TROUBLE COMES SMALL” — lettering found inside the bag with the remains of a small child.
Perhaps several layers of packaging for the small child, and layers of packaging for the Disney Bag contents.
When I was pregnant with one of my children, I was curious if there was any way to test for sex besides getting a bunch of ultrasounds. I recall running across some website that said you could add SOMETHING (like a cleaning agent or vinegar or ammonia or something? I don’t have time to look it up right now) to your urine sample and if it turned a certain color it meant it was a girl. Maybe someone wanted her to have a boy? Not sure if this is relevant to the cleaning product in the urine???
Not too cryptic– but pointing the way to the clues (clumsy way to do it).
(but then maybe someone thought police were all stupid boys!! And certainly not as smart as the perp, whoever it may be
#318 Hi, Columbias! Mark Hawkins must have something interesting to contribute as in he and Casey making togetherness plans. If she was planning on fleeing to CA to be with him, unveiling either another baby daddy accusation, or revealing a baby-adoption story, she certainly lounged around with Lazzaro long enough — well past Caylee’s “disappearance”. She could have been in a holding pattern at Tony’s hoping that he would come through with a living arrangement. Or perhaps she was waiting for money to arrive from Hawkins. The fact that MH’s Ex was at one time pregnant with Lee’s baby, is an additional point of intrigue.
Could be that the Mark/CA connection was another case of Casey’s smoke and mirrors activities with guys. She certainly kept them all on the vine ready for some kind of plucking. (Even Jesse who should have known better.) I wouldn’t have called her a femme fatale, on the surface, she seems so junior grade, but she has turned out to be quite disastrous, thank you. Understatement: she bears watching! Lol.
Why haven’t we seen Lauren Coppel’s deposition? She is the Lauren who baby sat Caylee for free to help out Casey so she could “work”, then discovered Casey didn’t have a job. Hers should prove an interesting testimony! I wonder why we’ve heard nary a word about her. Except, Cindy made some strange remark when asked about Lauren resigning as Caylee’s sitter with “Lauren had to go back to school.” Not addressing the question which implied Casey scamming Lauren, of course.
Yeah, you just gotta wonder at the depositions witheld from the document dumps up to this time. Could be the case of ongoing investigations, I guess. I think Blink has said she takes careful notice of what is not asked or revealed by LE.
chica, lee said it was common knowledge where the keys to the shed were kept, including casey knowing where (pg 374 of pdf http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21310241/detail.html)
that’s why i can’t figure why she broke in that day to steal the gas cans. weird.
Their is commentary from George on a recently changed lock on that shed somewhere, that, *shocker* did not make sense.
B
# 144 jennyt, glad you saw the LP bit on Nancy Grace. I agree with you that the evidence about the syringe is what depressed Leonard P. and his staff. He certainly was of the mind frame when he blew into Orlando that Casey was in the middle of something bad and had her child taken. Then, as you know, after positioning his team at Hopespring, he changed his mind and felt it was an accident that Casey was covering up. He always seemed to have more emnity toward Cindy than Casey, although admitting that Casey was concerned only for Casey and not Caylee.
I just question his statements about Tracey being so “down” because she had “befriended” Casey. From Tracey’s other activities with the Anthony camp, I gather than the “befriending” was still going on. Continuing long enough to make LP in the face of the new revelations, to ask Tracey, “Are you sure you told everything that happened in that house to Nick Savage”?
Is Leonard now unsure about Tracey’s role or her honesty in the whole enterprise? Surely he must know that Tracey has appeared to be somwwhat ambivalent about Casey when she was living in the house. She even posed as Casey leaving home or Baez’s office so Casey could escape the rush of photographers. Acting as a double for Casey could have been a protective measure for Casey or was it so Casey was free to go where and do what not really supervised by the media? Sure , Casey wore the ankle monitor, but being a double for Casey wasn’t part of Tracey’s job description, or was it? The whole thing bothers me. Why would Tracey M be a good witness for the SA? I presume, hope, they know what she is holding back, if anything.
I wish Nancy Grace would do her job and ask the right questions, but I firmly believe that she doesn’t want it all splayed out on her show and avoids digging into anything Leonard says. I do not know why she has him on her show.
BTW, did you note, jenny, that Nancy, appears still to be in the George and Cindy sympathy camp? That just floors me.
Wow, I’ve written too much.
the pregnancy test was found at the (incredibly trash ridden) remains site, whereas the urine bottle was in the trash bag in the car, and only had urine in it as far as i can tell. the cleaning product smell was in the gatorade/syringe bottle with the alcohol and chloroform and steroids.
still not getting the syringe. why would anyone think about injecting chloroform, so well known for its “sniff me” knockout power? if she has a syringe and wants to kill with it, why not just inject ANYTHING—ammonia, alcohol, bleach, air, water, gasoline, etc.? Any of those would kill. Why make chloroform, a known inhalant?
# jennyt, also meant to say like you, I thought Caylee died either by a rage incident or by Casey negligence. The climate seems to have indicated a lot of rage so I went with that. I couldn’t get passed the duct tape, though, that seals premed. for me. Not sure about all the latest syringe biz and the chemicals. I cannot see that girl making out like Dr. Jekyll.
#368 Hi MsEnscene! Exactly! I wonder what she would have layed on Mark when she got to California? Caylee’s with the baby daddy? Mom wouldn’t let me bring her? or.. Oh, I thought I forgot something?
I kind of picture her being a black widow had she not had Caylee. She sure liked to have one in the wings in case the next didn’t work out- heck maybe even 4 or 5 in the wings.
Just finished Diane Fanning’s book. Nothing really new- just the collage that was in the pictures- which I am not sure if that was put together as a collage on Casey’s computer or if the publisher put the photos together. If it was on there together on Casey’s computer it’s very very chilling evidence- if not then it’s “junk publishing” LOL
yeah, Blink, cindy says they changed the locks on the garage door at some point, Geo says no, they didn’t (pdf pg 278 http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21310228/detail.html)
pg 212 he says he replaced the broken lock (from june 24) and moved the key to over the air conditioning unit, where it is to this day if you’d like to break into the sheds. Before that, though, it sounds like it was where Lee said, with a spare perhaps in Geo’s nightstand, which as I’ve said before Casey would definitely have rifled through when alone in the house looking for money. I guarantee she knew where everything was—hidden or not.
#356 Kleat
I’m no expert! Your rhetorical question enlightens me. I’m just confused about the use of this particular sterioid. It is the least common because it causes soreness and painful irritation at the injection site. In fact, is can be pai
http://www.anabolicweb.com/testosterone_propionate.html
I don’t get who would use this kind of roid (personal trainer/Casey/??????. If is an effective steroid according the link but it requires ‘more injections’ than say other roids which are longer acting that the propionate. The demand is low. I guess this could support your theory.
Ehhh….the more I talk, the less sense I make.
I apologize for my poor spelling and grammar =(
i’m still allowing the possibility of the disney bag being random trash that got chucked in there. could it have washed over to that spot with the flooding and got caught against the tree? not that alot of other random trash collected right there.
a disposable syringe in its wrapper, 2 toilet paper roll inserts, a rectangular piece of clear plastic, and some (oily?) household cleaner.
not getting it.
do we any of the players who drank that flavor gatorade?
momof3/todd, i didn’t see any notes on dna tests for the gatorade bottle, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t done it i reckon. just the note about not needing to test the urine.
columbiares, i haven’t finished fanning’s book yet (don’t tell me—-does casey get life? death/ mistrial??) but i am 99.9% sure that collage you are worried about was assembled by the publisher from her photobucket pics, as opposed to the real photo collage of caylee pics on the wall in the house.
# 294 MsEnscene,
Hi, After your post I wanted to watch the episode of Nancy Grace that you referenced. Nancy Grace “BOMBSHELL” got most of the facts wrong. I thought she should have let LP talk more. I agree that LP did seem quite reserved.
LP and Tracy’s actions continue to confuse me. Why was Leonard meeting with Jose Bias? Why did Tracy send money to Casey/ Why are they so sad now? It scares me to think that there are still people out there that are following the case that still believe Casey did not kill her child or that it was an accident.
I admit in the beginning I thought she may have accidentally killed Caylee while trying to get her to sleep. Her actions and the actions of G C and L since then have screamed murder.
IMO if it was an accident how could Casey have put her family through the ruse of a kidnapping and everything that entailed. If a person accidentally does something, they are sorry, remorseful and apologetic Casey was never any of these.
#373 columbiares and MsEnscene,
Don’t forget Casey told Mark that she had something to tell him and that she had already told this something to her mom and Lee.
I believe she was going to tell Mark that she had given Caylee away to a really nice family that loved her maybe the babysitter’s family.
376, that’s to be expected around here– we are good at reading through those!! (we better be– I do it enough!) Whoever the roids are ‘about’, we’ll probably learn soon enough.
Blink- I’d be extremely surprised if a gator was present in that area. They typically reside in lakes. (You can assume that each lake in Florida is a home for gator’s) I’m not sure that there is a lake close to that area- do you know? I think there may be a retention pond- but I’m kinda sure it was enclosed w/fence because of the school.
Acetone, alcohol and peroxide– besides interest in testing evidence for chloroform, they asked to include these substances as well in a memo dated August 9th,2008 because they learned that these chemical names were also searched on the computer, not just searches for chloroform so that’s why the request.
What was she doing with these? Hexachlorophene is soluable in the solvents– that was a common in hospital scrubs, shampoos, and deodorants– it used to be easily available on the shelf in pharmacies, called Phisohex, apparently there were overdose incidents in infants in France in the 1970’s.
But what would one need to use a solvent for– to make something injectible? Naw– got to keep looking.
according to Kreuzer’s Korner, WKMG-TV …. reported on an earlier doc dump, that a Google search was made in March for these three solvents and ‘death’.
What was that girl doing…. geeze. As I just did in a first quick search using those three new search terms only, she could come up quickly with something like Phisohex, which probably would be available even at Gentiva in their supplies. Common for a nurse to know about the PHisoHex version if they practiced before the change to prescription only. It was only one further link to find out that PhisoHex had caused overdose problems in infants in the 70’s.
That’s so quick a search, not saying that’s it, but it’s only a couple clicks away to get that relation to infants.
If Casey had acne problems, she could have been familiar with the skin cleanser, maybe her mother brought some home from work– it lasts a long time as one needs very little at a time– it was common to see those big green bottles in household use at one time.
http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/1/3/263
“Hexachlorophane: toxicity and effectiveness in prevention of sepsis in neonatal units”
“… the question was raised of the safety of the use of hexachlorophane in man, in particular in newborns. This was given added point by the deaths in France of more than 30 babies following application to their skins of a baby powder containing excessive amounts (over 6%) of HCP…”
Maybe the search was on for something commonly available to dissolve in a solvent for injection (maybe easy to obtain without trace, for a daughter of a nurse — did Gentiva commonly have those bottles at hand-washing stations or for using in home care situations, or could a nurse bring some home?)
columbias
I see I am not the only one feeling like the book didnt tell anything new basicaly the same-o
I was disappointed good reading for mom whom doesnt blink at her age she spends most of the time in the kitchen cooking up all her mexican dishs. So the book wood be good for her so she can see for herself.
I am not saying that you blink at a certain age but her thing is cooking and talking to her 11 kids on face book and her 70 grandkids and great and greatgreat grandkids!! ya know what I mean she networks.
MsEnscene–I agree, something strange is up with Tracy. Don’t have time to find her interview, but wasn’t she laughing inappropriately during her interview? Uh, now that I think about it, I don’t think I even read her interview. I think I read comments about it here…but I DID see the NG interview with LP and Nancy is a lame interviewer. Makes me wonder if she asks more questions after the on-air interview. Can’t wait to hear LP’s whole story. Someday. This shows how good Casey is at deceiving people–come people, but as long as it is the right people, that’s what matters…
Who said Tracy had no time to do an interview?
B
#377–meant ’some’ people…she deceived the right people at the right time for 31 days…
suz
if I recall rightly I am sure they didnt want her to have the key to the shed. ya know due to the fact that she is a clepto!! that girl has some serious issues, ramsacking house her parents house and anywhere else she is left to roam alone! aint never seen nothing like the such as her. yeah and the CMA realy annoyed me to no end his comment to CMA was crying how proud he was of her and how much he’s learnt from her(hmm) to steal lie and connive! nothing in that memorial was for and about caylee, it was all a pitch of support of casey. wonder what shirley was thinking sitting there listening to all that rambling babbling.
but most of all the high 5 annoyed me the most, so inappropiate for the issue at hand. what was that all about what was gained what did it represent? just plain arrogance, inmaturity on both. Just cuz lee is quiet doesnt make him anymore less involved he is just more private about it.
Casey had Tony help her break into the shed, even if she knew where the key was, to make it look like someone else broke in. Or better yet, to leave evidence that Tony had been in their yard..where the pool and ladder were. The same with the gate left open and the ladder in the pool. The same with the needle, the pee, the bottle, the garbage bag found in the car with garbage from Tony’s, the list is endless.
The girl looked on the computer for ways to murder Caylee, went into the rage on June 15th, and had no problem looking back after that..life is beautiful. She tossed the baby, the evidence she had stole from others, and anything else she thought woould have been with Caylee if she was with Tony, Ricardo, Jesse or God forbid the Nanny. She left the garbage from Tony’s in the car for evidence leading to him..the man who didn’t want girls, to help cover the smell and her alibi. I think she took things from Jesse’s bathroom..and added that to the mix. Thinl guys no always flushing the toilet..pee, and in the shower head and pubic hair in the tub. Casey was setting the stage so LE would go everywhere but her.
I really hate giving her this much pre=thought..because she is such a stupid player, but I really believe this whole killing Caylee was on her mind from the first computer searches for ways to do a homemade murder. Push came to shove on the 15th of June..she wasn’t about to look back after that..everything she could toss was tossed at the scene..except the things she thought made her look like the good mother, the car seat in the car, the Mama baby doll, etc.
To say she or someone went back later to plant the syringe and pee..no way..she tossed it all, she had been waiting for the time and place to follow through with her plan..the beautiful life with her soldier boy in California was about to start. Passport in hand..she was getting ready to take off for Cali..I truly believe that.
MsEnscene
I dont get it tracy said before how cold and uncaring casey was regarding caylee, never bringing her up or showing any grief! what made her get attached I just dont get it. seems like the anthonys let casey run their house. she did thrw out leonord padilla and her parents didnt do anything. weird weird all of it including tracys behaviour before and after. blows my mind.
In regards to #341 and the hinkymeter site, It is saying that whomever is writing this article, that they believe the syringe, the trace of chloroform, and the sports drink bottle is unrelated to anything of Caylee or Casey. Am I missing something?
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/12872098/Casey-Anthony-duct-tape-and-shovel
Pin holes in the duct tape indicate to me that the tape was on the child and the needle was pushed through. This act had to be means of death.
I missed above if anyone else noted this. Sorry if this is already a given.
sickening
Sorry, missed the initial question perhaps, NO.. The holes are actually from the testing process, whereby the tape was attatched to a foam board.
B
Todd, maybe so, but those FBI reports found chloroform in several places/pieces of evidence
Blink, I think Jenny said she had no time to find/read Tracy’s interview
suz
thank you for the link! I was thinking the same thing about the disney bag. As discussed here about her tossing the body into the woods, do you think she also tossed the disney bag at the same time? After.. and she got it within inches of the body? Walked down into the woods and dropped both bags? kinda confused.
Thanks so much for the Hinky Meter link.. copied and pasted this from there.. it’s the closest thing I’ve seen that describes what may have happened. why dogs hit in backyard near ladder of pool also the tape theroy that blink thinks may have happened… interesting.. graphic but interesting..
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/?p=494
“I believe that in short order (within two days – which matches the account of Brian Burner), the heat of the trunk had caused grotesque swelling and putrefaction of the body to the point that when Casey opened the trunk she found the horrid site of a face that no longer looked recognizable. With tongue protruding, lips swelling to inverted and decomposition fluids seeping from the mouth and nose, as well as fluids from the virtual breakdown of the very tissue of Caylee’s body, Casey had to stop the mess – she wasn’t looking at Caylee anymore. I personally believe that is when the duct tape was applied, the body “prepared”, and the multi-layered bagging took place, to prevent further “mess” in her trunk. I also believe this preparation may have included Casey rinsing Caylee’s body in the pool.”
I respect Valhall’s work, but that scenario is a forensic impossibility. It is also negated by the recent doc dump, and pre-negated by the ME/Anthro report (s).
B
#395 Todd.. keep reading, there are changes to theroy
I swear I remember something about Lee and Tony talking about Casey possibly breaking into Tony’s apartment when he was out of town??? A broken window?? Was the apartment broken into or was this Lee just trying to figure out where she was? Thanks ahead of time for any insights.. sheri
gawd, i miss Phisohex and Phisoderm. We loved those in the 70’s.
Blink,
“Who said Tracy had no time to do an interview?”
Is that a trick question?
I fail and give up. And now, after looking for the answer to that question and not finding it, I reread excerpts from her interview and what the hay? She found Casey’s reactions to the situation as queerisome as everyone else did. Why the strange support for her–back then and now? Starstruck???
This doesn’t have anything to do with the recent doc release but does anyone remember Lee stating that he threw out a key that he found?? I think he was telling LE about this and that when he brought back the laptop and her items from Tony’s, he had found a key and just threw it away???? I wonder what that key went to??? I just thought about this. Does anyone have any idea what this key could have been for??
Todd in Tulsa,
Your question about the hinkymeter site is a valid question.
IMO The evidence released in this doc dump can be confusing especially the more one tries to figure out the data.
My interpretation of Valhal’s blog, is her first post regarding the Gatorade bottle and contents is that they are not connected to this case -just debris at the scene and won’t be brought up at trial.
However, after some deliberation she goes on to write that because Pinene and Limonene were found in the products and in the trunk (Earlier release via email Vass, Arpad Alexander) this could point back to Casey, therefore they would have value to this case.
Basically, in short she is debating with herself whether or not the Gatorade and its contents are connected or just random trash- just like we all seem to be.
Suz, thank you for posting the link to George’s testimony regarding the locks.
I am not 100% positive that the World of Disney bag and its contents are not just trash. However, given the sum of the evidence I am leaning towards it being Casey’s. Although I am not at all sure if it could have been dropped off later for some reason.
What I do feel confident in saying is that the Prosecution seems to be doing a good job of gathering the pieces of the puzzle and fitting them together.
Especially given the fact that Casey had 31 days to cover her tracks and for the trail to go cold. Not to mention that the victims family seems to be fighting tooth and nail against truth and justice prevailing.KWIM
#395 Todd in Tulsa–
I just read that article on the hinkymeter site…looks like Valhall (sp?) added more info at the end of the article recently stating that she (he?? sorry–not sure) is swaying a bit on that opinion because of info sent in by a Websleuths poster. Interesting to read.
dont forget cindy pretended(?) to not know who chris stutz was(some blonde guy i’d never met brought caylee’s swim things over from being left at his house”yuri picked up on that real fast.and dont forget as per rev g interview jesse at onetime was the MONDAY babysitter,his only day off.that to me tells who she was planning on framing,the le will know immediatly anything regarding his piss test or steroid angles of candiates,their familar with all the tricks of passing tests.
OT…Sorry-big ole nerd here- but what the heck does KWIM mean? I see it everywhere?
Know what I mean?
B
Michigan fan…as I recall it was Amy H’s key because when she mentioned it to him, he said he had already taken care of it. I’ve always wondered what the key was to also.
Blink is absolutely right regarding Valhal’s (who I also greatly respect)a of when the duct tape was applied…
The coroner explicitly stated that the tape was applied either BEFORE decomp began, or very, very early on.
I am a wretched researcher,or I would supply a link…sorry.
#403, Suz ~
“With hexa-hexa-hexachlorophene!”
[Sorry for being O/T!]
From http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html
“On 12-15-08 I received a letter that had been mailed to the Forensic Unit by an unknown person. The letter was addressed to “Lee”. The letter appeared to be a photocopy with copies being sent to the media and the Sherriff’s Office. The letter was shown to Detective Yuri Melich. The letter was photocopied to be retained in the case file. The envelope (J-60008, 1) was turned over to the Evidence Section.”
Have you guys heard about this letter before? Has it been released?
Sorry, should have mentioned above . . page 52 of 112 or their page #3393
410 LOL- I was like what do you mean- you know what I mean? GOT it! Thank you Blink
!! Going to try some sleeping on my shingled leg - my snuggly blankets have become torture! Maybe I won’t be so blonde in the AM.
Thanks for all you do Blink!
I respect Valhall’s work, but that scenario is a forensic impossibility. It is also negated by the recent doc dump, and pre-negated by the ME/Anthro report (s).
B
Ok Blink.. you’re killin’ me here..lol. You were the first person/site I ever visited to have ever said the things I have ’seen’ first hand. It blew my mind to see someone write what I had been thinking since day 1 was but too scared to say outloud myself. The reason for the tape.. The horrible sight of the O with the drop of the jaw.. Googled it just to see if anyone else in the medical field was brainstorming the theroy.. here you were! Tonight when somone mentioned the other site.. (vahall?) I clicked the link.. interesting stuff but still sitting her stumped.. how is it impossible? Don’t mind doing the footwork. Can you spin me around and point me in the right direction? Thanks!! Sheri
Sheri- if I dont buy into the theory I am not sure what your asking for-
B
gypsy dd, could be, but she had a month to get out of town, so why didn’t she borrow amy’s money and car and head to california? she is hard to figure.
#328 Wendy I really appreciate your response and time taken - over this side of the world (New Zealand) I think I end up typing when you are probably all sleeping =) Well well well is all I can say about the Amscot hmmmmmmmmmmmm
# 381 momof3. Whatever she was going to tell Mark H. was something that she “already told mom and Lee”. (Note she doesn’t include George!) Since, she is the fanciful type whom nobody seems to outwardly question or hold to truthful standards, it could have been any number of things. I forget the date of her note to Mark. Not good at recalling those things. Was it just before or after Caylee went missing? That would be telling.
#390 jennyt. Either the Nancy/Leonard thing is some type of an act: “Okay, Leonard, you make the startling announcements and we’ll tease the audience by never going all the way.” Or, Nancy is being careful about future lawsuits and takes Leonard in small doses, never really trusting that he won’t produce too much of a bombshell.
The bombshell was that Leonard supplied Nancy with a very intriguing situation and Nancy immediately looked the other way.
#394 Chica, what can anyone say? Casey seems to be a very charismatic person. She seems to be able to get any number of people, male and female, under her spell. She has charm, but that word is, in the old sense, a thing of magic and incantation, false, not to be trusted as real with an underlying danger to it. As we know, fairy tales are replete with evil charms which have to be undone by the pure and innocent.
Besides using charm, Casey keeps people in compartments so they don’t compare notes on her. I think she soon outgrows her welcome with anybody with a brain. Besides, she talks so darned much.
From what we’ve seen, many of her friends appear gullible and unguarded.Just young and unfocused, perhaps. That easily deluded group might also include some of the Padilla team like Tracey. Just don’t know. It’s very odd.
I believe it was (Tony’s roomate) Clint’s girlfriend who said she thought Casey was a negligent parent because Caylee was wandering around on Tony’s balcony and answering his door to strangers. She also questioned how Casey could do so much work at home. Lol. There’s a gal after my own heart!
Investigators believe Casey had searched the internet on her computer to find out how to make Chloroform. They found similar search results on her ex-boyfriend’s computer several months before discovering those on Casey’s computer. Chloroform can be made with common household chemicals and can be deadly in high doses
http://www.wftv.com/news/21539718/detail.html
I didn’t know LE found searches on a boyfriends computer- who’s? Tony’s, Morales, anymore BF that they might have looked at?
Blink -
Are you going to be writing an article in regards to the last doc dump - sharing your interpretation and findings?
Or - does the doc dump, pretty much, speak for itself?
Just curious…I always love and appreciate your perspective on the doc releases.
Thank you, as always, for all you do.
At this point, I am feeling we have really worked through the most compelling information, but ya never know
B
#414_mom_il
If my memory serves me (it doesn’t always), I believe that it could be the guy in Arizona who wanted to pay a million dollars for info from Casey, or the guy in prison (with mental instability) that said that he knew who killed Caylee?
Not sure, maybe that hasn’t been released.
Not a chemist here, but saw the hexachlorophene mentioned here and wondered if it might be related to a fairly common prescription mouthwash (to treat periodontal disease) caled Chlorhexidine Gluconate.
#396, et al. regarding punctures in the duct tape, ValHals article on the gatorade bottle and other such stuff. And of course this is all just my opinion, having at long last been able to read a bit and catch up, somewhat, though not thoroughly, so please forgive me should I repeat issues already addressed. In brief: (ummm, sort of)
1. Regarding the gatorade bottle and the syringe. The key word/thought here is terpenes. The terpene evidence contained within the gatorade bottle and its contents, the trunk of the car, and the computer evidences regarding her searches on how to make chloroform (sp) all lead back to Casey, and directly so. I am so pleased to at last see the terpene evidences come to the forefront.
2. Regarding the pricks found in the duct tape that covered Caylee’s mouth and nose, and again, this is just my opinion but, I believe these holes were made from bug (diptera - did I spell that correctly) activity, entering into the most fluid areas of Caylee’s body — her nose and mouth, during the initial stages of decomp, through the duct tape, which would also support a pre-mortem application of the tape, rather than a postmortem application. Think termite larvae burrowing into wood and the small holes they make in so doing, and consider the fact that not even 6 feet of earth and a coffin can keep these critters out, so what’s a little tape?
3. Regarding the tape, and again forgive my at-times-more-feeble mindedness, but I just can’t see Casey handling a putrified, liquified, bloated body any more than she had to, let alone to have struggled (and it would have been a struggle) to apply tape to a profusely seeping nose and mouth area as Caylee’s body emptied itself through her nose and mouth, in particular.
These fluids would have saturated not only her little face but her hair as well, and considering the great lengths Casey went through to bag the body, it just seems to me that she wanted to be rid of the sight and smell of her daughter as quickly as possible, and wouldn’t have been able to stomach such an extensive tape application to Caylee’s then disfigured and liquified face. But it is only my opinion, again.
4. As for what critters may have been responsible for feeding on Caylee and so scattering her? I believe the major culprits here would have been possums, as possums rival our mail carriers in their quest to get their jobs done in spite of wind, rain, sleet and hail, and their mainstay is, of course, carrion. Gators wouldn’t make such a scattering. They prefer to drag their prey off whole. Birds and snakes and spiders and beetles and all else that would have converged are more likely to have kept the remains fairly localized, well, crows may have flown off with strips of flesh but probably not bone, but possums?
I’ve had to deal with my share of possums as they have, on occassion, taken up residence beneath the decks, and you can’t imagine what they will drag home with them, especially when they are nesting. Nor can you imagine how insane they drive the Yorkshires, Toe-Toe and Dakota’s Sweet Dolly-Dolly, who’s small enough to manuver herself beneath the decks, but not past the 4 by 4, and bark and bark until I manage to get her to come out and leave the possums the heck alone. I had to learn a few things about possums, then, such as do they carry rabbies and what do they eat? Small dogs? Only if the dogs are dead and rotting.
So why don’t I just block their entrance? Ah. They are so cute and have so few places to hide with all of the bulldozing and building going on.
5. At one time I had a Chevy Caprice. Quite a large car that had a tendancy to die on me, due to faulty battery cables. I’m about the same size as Casey and had to push that Caprice a few times, by myself. No easy task, and I ended up with a herniation as a result. But I managed. It would make sence that she would pull next to the dumpster then let the car run itself out. It also makes sence to me that Casey (certainly a sociopathic malignant narcissist) wouldn’t have concerned herself with the Gatorade bottle and just tossed it aside, her use of it complete. She does believe she is above the law (having never been held legally accountable for any illegal thing that she’s done), has justified her actions in her own mind, and probably believes everyone just too danged stupid to link the evidences back to her, and for the rest of her life, which I pray to God isn’t too long, she will forever be a victim trapped within the confines of her own thought processes, and nothing will ever be her fault.
Have a good one!
Gavi
I can’t imagine that this last bit of discovery hasn’t really driven home the facts of this case for the Anthonys. This is truly horrific stuff with the insect info, etc. (that is, if they didn’t already know intimately about the trunk in the first place; ie clean-up, I’m not saying that they did or didn’t)
I have been thinking about pet enzymatic cleaners. Knowing that the Anthonys have pets, and considering that pets occasionally have accidents, or miss the litter box, it’s not inconceivable that they might have one of these products on hand. Contents include: water, enzymes (I believe the source is spores), isopropyl alcohol and citrus scent. I believe some contain pine. They are very effective in removing cat odors, by virtue of ‘eating the proteins’. You either spray a small area and let it sit, or for large penetrating stains and odors, you pour a large amount directly on the surface and let it sit. When poured onto hard wood, (not really recommended), there will be what appears to be a ‘water outline or stain’ until the floor is later mopped and rinsed with plain water.
I would imagine with body fluid leakage in decomp, that the liquids probably seep thoroughly through carpeting, and as bad and as difficult as it is to remove cat urine odor, it’s likely that decomp is a gazillion times more potent. However, it could explain the absence of proteins , as well as the stain that appeared in the trunk. I kept thinking that bleach, peroxide, or some oxidizing agent might have been used, but then it didn’t make sense to me that there would be no lighting or bleaching of the carpet. An enzymatic cleaner makes perfect sense, and perhaps followed up with a steam cleaner, plain water, or pool water? If one person was involved in the clean-up, this would seem to be the easiest way to go. If the body was contained in multiple bags, it would explain the lack of hair evidence, as would vacuuming.
Kleat
I don’t remember many items that were thought to contain chloroform. I think that chloroform registered high in the trunk in general, but I can’t recall specific items. The doll was initially tested and thought to contain chloroform, but this was discounted in a later test, where it was assumed to be urine instead.
“I respect Valhall’s work, but that scenario is a forensic impossibility. It is also negated by the recent doc dump, and pre-negated by the ME/Anthro report (s).
B”
Blink is absolutely correct. The findings of the autopsy reports somehow got lost in regards to this recent off-site theorizing of the placement of the duct tape.
The following snippet from the ME’s autopsy report:
“This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place.”
Meaning either while Caylee was still alive and breathing, or shortly after her last breath of life, but most certainly BEFORE the described stage of “bloat” as described off-site.
soulsister, finding chloroform searches on the boyfriend’s computer (several months before hers—does that mean they found it on his computer several months before they found it on hers, or the searches were performed several months before casey searched for chloroform on hers?)—that’s definitely news to me, too! It would square with Blink’s assertion that chloroform had a recreational role. On the other hand, maybe the boy was just searching for that “Win her over with chloroform” pic for his facebook, rather than searching how to make chloroform. Hard to tell from the info we have seen.
I did notice somewhere that when the cops took shed evidence it included pool chemicals and containers that could have been used to make chloroform—I kinda’ wonder what that is. Could be ANYTHING, I think (a bucket a jar?).
Sheri, i think Blink is saying that because the medical examiner specifically stated that the duct tape was placed either pre-decomp or at really, really early decomp, the O theory had to be ruled out.
No Suz, I disagree the Me findings negate the O theory, I think it supports it, imo. What I was saying is Valhall theory is not supported by that fact in her piece, imo.
B
ah, well—what blink said, then, lol. Yes to the O, no to the bloat/fluid discharge? Or something like that. I’m of two minds on the tape but hope it was post mortem.
Hi..just a thought regarding Tracy. Wasn’t Casey supposed to be bisexual? Would it be completely out there to imagine Casey needing some cuddling because of all the mounting pressure. They were together all the time. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to imagine they may have got it on, hence Tracey’s demeanor?
wsh, several pieces of the carpeting or liner from the car were tested for chloroform and it was found in some of them. I’d have to go back and take notes, but it’s in the docs.
If Casey had chloroform, and was leaving the car as evidence of a crime, attaching chloroform to the woods crime scene, then it makes perfect sense for the chloroform to be found in specific items of evidence from the car, not just in the ‘air’ of the trunk. If planting evidence, and you want to link a cause of death from the car to the body crime scene, then spill some around unless you happen to know about the new air junk science– and if it’s junk science, better to spill some on something specific that can be tested. (IF it was purposefully put in both places, vs just in the body and spills from that)
Blink and All Blinkers:
I found tis blog a few months ago. It is almost my bible to this case. I need some help. Is there a link to Blink in the Beginning? How do I start with the first article on this case and read everyone. Not every post, but the articles in order? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Garivella, the little holes in the duct tape were caused by the forensics testing people– the end was held with a pin onto a piece of (irrc) foamcore for support. That means the tape doesnt’ have to be handled itself, can handle or move the foamcore piece, and have clear access to the full surface of the tape for testing.
As for the bugs eating through the duct tape– flys don’t apparently burrow through wood to get into a coffin, they are gnat sized, and get through the tiniest openings (yuch– so I’ve recently read in one news report). Duct tape (specs from the specific type) is polyethelene, cotton scrim (with big spaces between the threads) and a rubber based adhesive, oh yeah, and whatever other proprietary compounds in the mix. Maybe the adhesive has chalk too.
If you take a push pin and push it through apiece of tape like a duct tape, say the adhesive is already degraded/non-sticky, you can clearly see the direction of the pinhole. It would be easy to prove a hole is from a pin rather than an insect. There is nothing edible about that tape to an insect. But interesting proposition– polyethelene sheeting is used in home construction to form vapour barriers, that wouldnt’ be much good if insects ate through it at will. (and if insects would eat through the tape plastic layer, then why wouldn’t the black garbage bags also be riddled with holes from flies trying to get out, or in)
Q, could anyone who did what was done to this little body, have been bothered by a dropped jaw? Just playing d-’s advocate here, and why the tape in the horizontal direction and so much to the hairlines at the side? Why not just fix the problem– add some tape vertically.
Whatever the reason, I don’t think it was ‘horrible’ to Casey when the body was carried, smelled, moved, and dumped.
Dominic Casey has an appointment with the state prosecutors this week– Thursday. He is still trying to get out of that– why the delays from Judge Strickland? How close to the wire do judges cut their orders in something like this that has been argued back and forth in both courts, same issue, since last spring?
# Comment by Kleat — November 9, 2009 @ 12:19 pm
wsh, several pieces of the carpeting or liner from the car were tested for chloroform and it was found in some of them. I’d have to go back and take notes, but it’s in the docs.
No need Kleat, I happened upon them. I was thinking that you meant separate items, initially, vs. components of the car.
#284 - Comment by Momof3 — November 7, 2009 @ 9:37 pm
“…On page 1479 of the documents released, there is an email to Heather of the FBI regarding the Gatorade bottle contents and any DNA testing needed on the possible urine. It states that Yuri spoke to the State prosecution to see if that was a road they wanted to go down and they declined further testing.
If I am understanding this correctly, I believe the State does not care if the bottle holds urine or not. The toxicology is enough evidence for them. Or they are not going to bring the bottle and its contents in at all. Also seems to point in the direction of no fingerprint testing either…”
“Momof3: T O N S ! Even a blind squirrel finds a nut I always say when I can speak from personal experience-
I think your observations are astute. Well played imo, by the State.”
B
**********************************
Blink, the last sentence of your comment…Am I interpreting this correctly? That the state did not want the urine identified if it would cast suspicion on someone other than Casey?
Would the defense want it tested?
I’m confused as I sip my cocktail…which leads me to…
…#327
“FTLOG. Put down the beverages before clicking and have an eyewash station nearby.”
B
Thank you for the heads up…I can’t begin to count the wasted beverages reading some of these posts. I felt you were speaking directly to me:)
what is ; “weed eater” fabric found at the scene”, I have never been sure as to what evidence was found in the backyard…
Sorry Blink.. should have been more clear. I know you work on facts, like the old movie “just the facts ma’am” lol. I’m asking how it is a “forensic impossibility” Thanks, Sheri
I believe wpg answered that upthread in detail, I concur.
B
#437…Kleat…I so agree with you and “O” factor. I have said in the past,most kids sleep with their mouth open, why would this bother her so much as to tape it closed. I firmly believe this was put on before Caylee died and the reason for the 3 pieces was out of rage. As far as the tape going from ear to ear its because she just pulled the tape off estimating the length needed and just stuck it in place.
We all have been saying KC doesn’t have a conscience so why does everyone think Caylee’s jaw relaxing is the reason for this tape?
Soulsister, by the time OSCO interviewed Rico, it seems from his LE interview, they already knew about the chloroform photo because of the MySpace posting he made. Ricardo later removed the photo, and told the police about that. He posted it because he thought it humorous. This may be where Casey saw the photo and got the idea– but if she was around the drug and party culture, she would know about chloroform if it was talked about.
So, was the use of chloroform specifically, to target Ricardo? Casey put a lot of ‘thought’ into picking up on things, associating them and spinning her tales using bits of truth– this would just be an easy link for her to pick up on, (before or after the deed) to plan ahead or plan afterwards. Ricardo was linked by this photo/chloroform pubicly, and by Casey repeatedly (according to Cindy) that it was his apartment. And lo and behold, the ‘Big Trouble’ t-shirt that Cindy and George never recognized (according to them), was found in photos of Caylee and Casey in Ricardo’s bedroom, and living room, with Ricardo’s things, and possibly taken on different evenings.
Wouldn’t Ricardo be the perfect person to be used by Casey in a set-up/blame scenario? She had all the parts and pieces ready to go before the child died, whether it was a ‘plan’ or not, these sorts of little details of truths mixed with her created ‘facts’ she has so often worked into her lies to her mother during those 31 days.
Ricardo had spoken to the FBI early on also, before the OSCO interview, and there were questions he answered or discussed with the FBI, that he would not discuss with OSCO, but the chloroform picture was not one of them. Also, Ricardo did not allow the OSCO to take a look at his computer. (noting the difference between what Jesse offered up, and other bf’s/male friends/Amy, offered without question).
Casey knew Rico probably had some secrets from authorities, knew he would make a good suspect, if this were what she was setting up, or later, set up.
Cindy did emphasis the ‘drums’ and how good Caylee was at keeping a beat– early on– August FBI interviews– WHY was this such a big thing to go on and on in detail about, unless there were already clues dropped about Ricardo, or clues about the nanny having the drums. Cindy was already suggesting something early on?
Kleat-
Are you aware of any transcript where OCSO asks Ricardo directly about the use of Chloroform?
B
Comment 411 -
If the key Lee found was Amy’s…….Wasn’t most of her stuff in storage, since she was supposedly moving into the Anthony home with Casey? Maybe it was Amy H.’s storage unit key…….
Kleat, thanks for reminding me about the pins. Silly me. But this is why I so love Blink on Crime — I learn so much, as I muddle through the unknown, such as bug science. But anyway, giving it more careful consideration, the flies (gnats)would have made their way through whatever crack or cranny. They wouldn’t have had to burrow through the tape. All of this, of course, just makes me sick. And no, Casey wouldn’t have cared, not for Caylee, but for herself. I also wonder if she didn’t smell of decomp when she stopped at whose house to shower? Jessie? Ricardo? Whichever. I don’t recall. There’s so much information it’s easy to get lost. But did he notice? Did he comment? Did he assist after that point? And can’t we be certain that Cindy did, with Dominic Casey’s assistance?
I can only barely stand looking at her in the courtroom. She appears so smug so most of the time, and I wonder what it is that she’s thinking? That Caylee got what she deserved? She’s going to hang, but I won’t be cheering. There will always be the saddness born of this should never have happened. Not to Caylee. Not to any child. And this plays into my greatest of all hopes, keeping those I am involved with safe, well cared for and concerned about, and alive.
Gavi, most sincerely.
Annie, just go to the main page and scroll down, and click back on the previous pages to go back. They are all in chronological order. Also, to limit the number of articles, try using the menu link at the top, ‘Caylee Anthony Case’ and you will get only the linked articles (maybe a few non-Caylee articles if they reference the name), and go back in the pages from there to get to the first article.
Anyone get the idea that part of this, is Casey proving that Casey is smarter than any man, smarter than any police officer or detective, (smarter than George), and smarter than anything they can bring on to trick her into a confession?
(Does Casey really like men ‘as people’? Or does she have a disgust or disrespect for them, except where she has a use for them? Does she prefer her women friends because it’s maybe been the theme at home, of the heirarchy of the woman in the family? (note when George left the home in 2005, Lee was not long to follow)
Suz: you have been on a real roll last night and this morning. Thanks for finding the testosterone mix information. That should settle the discussion on whether Cindy or George were the source of the syringe. Ordinary old folks just do not take that particular blend and in an injection.
While reading all the comments, something occurred to me. What if Casey (trying out the fictional job of trainer) actually had injected herself somewhere around the date of June 15-16? Could a single dose of “gym rat’s special blend” cause a reaction with fits of anger, manic style talking and lack of sleep?? We know from the neighbor that Casey was having fits of anger on June 15.
The cell phone evidence shows that Casey had several days of talking on the phone almost non stop; also Amy tells of Casey stopping by and talking to her so much it was remarkable and irritating. I can’t remember the date, but I think it was when Tony was in NY and Casey didn’t have a place to stay. I know that more ordinary steroids can cause a psychotic reaction that looks alot like mania, with anger outbursts and physical overactivity. Could Casey have been trying out the use of testosterone as a euphoriant/rec drug? This might explain the death of Caylee.
Killing your own child would end the fun, I think. Casey had a period of either straight sleep or very unusual silence for her on, I think, June 17-18. Coming down?
Baez should have gone for mental illness as a defense, except that the details of the case do not support the idea of bipolar illness. Drug use would explain her actions almost perfectly. Of course, before the remains were found, Casey was hoping she would get off entirely.
Gypsy DD: I am with you, as almost always, on Casey tossing the body and whatever evidence remained in her car. Out of sight, out of mind and on to the good life.
Why didn’t she go to CA and Mark Hawkins? She still had hopes for Tony L. She didn’t give up on Tony L until she was in jail and he didn’t call her back. Besides how far to CA could she have gotten on $400 with either her own smelly car or with Amy’s? I think the good life was going to be with Tony at first until he cut her off.
If the death was an accident or done in a drug induced rage, Casey would still not want to take responsibility if it could be covered up, especially if drug use was involved. She tried to cover it up, whether murder or not, until she was thrown in jail. After that, she let George and Cindy take over the coverup, just like they had always done. They are still trying to cover up princess Casey’s mess.
Without some testimony from Casey, this will go on to first degree murder at trial. Could Casey do well enough to convince 12 people that it was all just a horrible mistake, due to some sort of drug side effect that she didn’t know about? Maybe so, but only if she testifies. How many people did she lie to, about different things and with different story lines? Beats me: but what they have in common is, they all believed Casey Anthony was telling them the truth.
Casey knows how to spin a lie.
Good thinking on the pet odor remover. It works almost miracles, even on male cat urine. I can see either Cindy or Casey using it on the trunk. Or maybe even persnickety car detailing George. They wouldn’t be worried about the outline, just about the over powering smell.
Annie, go directly here: (and don’t forget the menu links for Scared Monkey’s and SM Radio too)
http://blinkoncrime.com/category/caylee-anthony-case/page/11/
Plus, regarding the outline in the trunk. That should serve to tell us that Caylee was inside some container-like sack. The outline is too neat to suppose that she was tossed in the trunk and left to decompose as thoroughly as valhal suggests.
Do we know in what order the trash bags and laundry bag were used? If she was in the laundry bag first, it would permit some initial leakage that would leave a distinctly shaped stain. The smell and leakage would lead a person to double-bag, I think.
Did anyone else notice that there were 2 DNA contributors to the hair iron? (Q307/308) The major contributor was Casey Anthony. The minor contributor could not be analyzed further to breakdown percentages in population probabilities. Is this one circumstance that the defense will take advantage of saying it is Zanny?
Comment by MsEnscene
lol to clints girlfriend. also regarding nancy grace! I think after being sued by melinda ducketts family! she threads on very carefuly as to not get herself in trouble. I too had trouble understanding why nancy grace was reporting on anything onthe case for sometime. until today I heard she will be reproting the bombhell on tonights HLN show.
sorry meant to say wasnt reporting
I forgot to add that Cindy, George, Lee, Caylee and (Burner) were excluded as possible contributors to Q 307/308.
No surprise that DNA could not be recovered from the tape, I suppose, probably due to the elements.
More product info, potentially used in the clean up of the trunk.
Product Description:436
Multi-Zyme is a multi-purpose enzymatic cleaner. It’s a special blend of enzyme producing bacterial cultures and biodegradable surfactants. Multi-Zyme is extremely effective in odor control and degrading organic waste. Digests proteins, fats, oils, grease, starches, hair, vegetable gums, and other organic waste. Eliminates odor at the source.
Where to use:
drains grease traps sinks
instrument cleaner & presoak sewers showers
carpet upholstery fabric
Directions for use:
Odor Eliminator: Spray directly on source of odor. Can be used as a mist to eliminate airborne odors. Upholstery: Simply mist the fabric.
Spot/Stain Remover: Saturate problem area with Multi-Zyme. Use clean white cloth to blot out product. In some cases, place a towel moistened with product over the problem area to keep damp for 24 hours.
Per-Scent® Perfume Additive for Cleaning Solutions
Per-Scent is a 100% perfume concentrate additive that should not be overused. It was developed for the purpose of leaving a pleasant, lingering, aromatic fragrance in a room after the cleaning is finished. The aroma is delicate and fresh, avoiding the overpowering cheaper traits of many lesser products.
Per-Scent has seven fragrances: lemon, orange, wild cherry, cinnamon, honeysuckle, pine and baby powder. It is an extreme concentrate, dilutable 12,800 to 1. It has a pleasant fragrance, so caution should be used to ensure it is kept out of the reach of children. It contains no odor-killing agents and should not be sold as a deodorant or disinfectant.
Per-Scent mixes directly in with your cleaning solution. A very economical way to gain customer satisfaction.
Use concentration: 1 ounce per 100 gallons in the cleaning solution.
Use pH: Not applicable.
410 columbias
lol lol dont feel bad with your kwin.
when I first started seeing the word IIRC I went crazy looking for it’s meaning. I even asked one of my daughters if its was computer lingo or what! I found out and figured it for myself too funny. but I too was at a loss for kwin hell I thought it was a radio station.
oops meant kwim thought it was a country and western station lol that
Blink
I will have to disagree with you, respectfully, of course, in regard to the “o” mouth. From what I have gathered , it is more likely to occur with a prolonged death process, usually a sign of impending death with patients asleep, in a coma, over hours or days. Maybe this is wishful thinking, but I don’t believe that Caylee’s death was a protracted event.
On the other hand, the use of the duct tape, in my opinion was at least in part the cause of death, or placed immediately following death as a staged kidnapping. I don’t believe it was used to close her mouth post mortem.
WSH- repectfully, disagreeing right back, as in, how do you account fot the fact that the ME makes no distinction about manner or protraction of the decedent when referencing the mandible position POST mortem. Meaning, the COD does not predetermine the event? I realize we may only ever agree that it was applied shortly before or shortly after death
B
Blinker’s
I spoke with dee yesterday! she is doing ok considering the unfolding sad, tragic events unfolding. she thanks everyone for their support and especialy blink for your care and concern.
blink thank you for this site you do a wonderful job. I though it’s a full time job just raising a family and working. I raised four kids and know how much time goes into it on a daily basis. when their asleep at night you look at them and your heart just sighs with pridemaking it all worth it.
you do a great job here
thank you personaly.
Thanks Chica, very kind.
B
I was reading on WS earlier, and people had written comments about the radio show. For what it’s worth, Leonard Padilla says that not all of Tracy’s interview has been released.
Blink
We mostly agree.
lol, yep.
B
The science of all of this is just amazingly interesting….if it did not have to be part of the reality of this child’s and other victims final hours. Reading here and looking further to try and comprehend the decomposition led me to a site where photographs were made of a piglet alive and then through each step of decomp….graphically nauseating for me…thank goodness for those who can study these things and become successful in their fields. But after viewing the piglet pics…how in the name of Jesus could any human look at their own child in this condition and carry on…sure we read of the few episodes of night sweats…but good grief…how could she ever close her eyes again and not see the image of a child she bore…omg…this is one sick family. I am not a mean or vindictive person…but waterboarding seems justified here to get the truth from this girl…sorry..try to just read..but have to let it out every now and then. Keep up the amazing work you all do and again…praying for all.
One more thing that came to mind and made the odor of that trunk seem more realistic…which I cannot imagine…back in the summer we had a shrimp boil…my husband had taken the heads of the shrimp in the sink inside….a few days later there was a smell that I cannot describe permeating from under my sink…finally after cleaning diligently I pulled the sliding rack from under my sink that holds the garbage can…under the metal slider was one shrimp head…key to all of that horrendous odor..one little shrimp…it took bleach and scrubbing to get rid of that odor..cannot even begin to imagine that car trunk. This girl, woman, all of them need to be haunted forever by this…yet they take a cruise???? And Casey orders hot snacks to chomp on all day??? Sick, sick, sick.
westsidehudson,
I wonder what more revelations could be in Tracy’s unreleased interview.
There are several people’s interviews I would think would be quite enlightening.
Mark Hawkins
Jim ? (George’s cop friend from Ohio)
Mallory Parker
and Lee’s roommates
I would think that these people would have been interviewed possible several times. What information was obtained?
This just isn’t casey’s week, month, year. The Chloroform in the needle in the bottle has to have her slapping her forehead and asking ‘WAS I THAT STUPID?’Then she finds out there is a play, Tot Mom
,and because it was made in Australia she won’t get a dime!So sad…..
Good afternoon……To Kleat, Casey doesn’t understand the term “horrible”…In essence “desperate times call for desperate measures”…What I think is an important factor,is when Casey remarked about the “Dead squirrels plastered themselves on the frame of her car” and the smell,I have to check on the timeline on that statement,but my opinion is that could be compelling.I feel Casey was conspiring for an accident to happen to Caylee,that could have been explained away,but it didn’t work out that way. My opinion also,is Casey chloroformed Caylee,taped her mouth(in case she woke up)and put her in the trunk,(you can go to jail for leaving a small child unattended in a car here in Fl)while she had a date night. Caylee died. I also feel if she had help,it was from her brother……..Blink,brilliant work here,along with great minds! The end is drawing near for Caylee to have her justice!
I can see how Dr. G would know if the tape was applied pre-bloat (ug graphic I know) based upon the placement of the tape and where it was stuck on the hair on the sides. It would have been much bigger across the facial area if the body was already bloated so I can totally understand that. What still confuses me is - if she were trying to ‘close’ the 0 factor and stop leakage - wouldn’t at least one strip of the tape have been placed under her chin and then up over the top of her head? I guess this part is confusing to me since I tend to believe the tape was applied to keep Casey quiet in the event she woke up (but that tells you that I’m not convinced that she was sure that whatever Casey did to Caylee she was absolutely sure it would result in her death).
Its also just barely ambiguous enough to me that the world of disney plastic shopping bag - not a backpack - isn’t just trash that happened to be in the area. On one hand - if someone were secretly using steroids they would discard it somewhere not in the regular trash - and someone took pains to roll it in an almost depleted cardboard toilet paper roll - squeeze it enough to put it into a gatorade bottle and then seal it up with whatever concoction of chemicals which doesn’t make much sense. If it were planted ‘evidence’ - wouldn’t one make sure that it obviously came from the person you were trying to frame? Especially with some sort of other evidence stashed in the bag such as junk mail, etc.?
Its hard to give her credit both ways - she is smart and devious enough to plant chemicals, frame others, manipulate the system; yet, she leaves the body around the corner, doesn’t do basic cleanout of items in the car even though so much stuff could have just been tossed into the dumpster at Amscot and never seen again. Is she dumb and lazy or is she an evil genius? I hope you weren’t expecting an answer from me because I have no idea!! LOL
momof3
I have wondered too nothing has been said that I have read about mallory being interviewed nor georges friend Jim from ohio.
Blink, back to the listening or reading of transcripts when I can– I do recall OSCO asking Ricardo about the chloroform, my recollection mostly in reference to the photo posted, but remember that OSCO investigators also wanted to know more, I’m vague on this without refreshing, but do remember hesitation in Ricardo’s response as they clarified that they were not asking about the FBI questions not to be discussed. (was listening while doing other things– better try to sort that out better).
There’s your answer. Who knew Ricardo was interviewed by the Feds. They know exactly what the dealio was with the Chloroform and it’s a hell of alot more compelling than a double google on the subject, imo.
B
Just reading all the comments and wanted to tell Kleat that I think your a sweetheart. You tend to go out of your way with kindness helping other “new” Blinkers out….I’m sure Blink appreciates!
Just wanted to let you know that!
MM-
Very true, I owe her a huge thank you as well, thanks for reminding me.
B
What’s the bet on Judge Strickland’s ruling about Dominic Casey and his privacy roles for the ‘three adults’ and maybe Baez, maybe not Baez? And of course, Dominic Casey did list Caylee Anthony, in his answers from the witness stand about his contracts with the ‘joint defense’, as well DC stated (as did his lawyer IIRC) that Dom Casey worked for the lawyers of the joint defense, which included Brad Conway, but not in August or Sept, or Oct or half of November, for Mark NeJame (presumably that could not be possible).
I think we already know that his Honor has some sealed info on the Dom. I also think our skilled prosecutors may try to engage Ms. Tennis on what she can expect if they are “heard” on the issue and it will probably not bode well for her client, and then of course be “on record”. I am sincerely hopeful Ms. Tennis is putting together a much tighter argument if she does not intend to stipulate in any way.
B
Hmm, who would know about cleaning hazardous waste and crime scenes? Or was it someone who knew how to clean up after an animal?
Apparently unbeknownst to me, enzymatic cleaners are used in the medical field as well as crime scene clean -up. If any were used in this case, they were not used entirely effectively. The second article links to active oxygen products and crime scenes:
http://www.merchantcircle.com/blogs/Flood.Control.of.Fremont.510-230-0574/2009/7/Fremont-Crime-Scene-Cleanup-510-230-0574/292742…EXCERPT:
Human blood is essentially made up of several types of cells that contain different chemicals. Chief among the red blood cells is the molecule hemoglobin which is composed of protein and iron. The various molecules in the blood are arranged in such a way that they are not easily broken down by common household cleaners.
In some cases, these chemical bonds can be broken down into their component molecules but time will be of crucial importance. As such, in order to increase the speed of breaking down the chemical bonds in human blood, crime scene cleaners and restorers have turned to the medical profession for a solution.
Medical enzyme solutions contain naturally occurring enzymes that increases the speed at which the chemical bonds are broken down. This translates into a much faster rate of blood dissolution and the removal of stains. And since the solution contain what is actually found in the environment it also poses no threats to the ecosystem.
Medical enzyme solutions are now being used by top-notch professional companies that offer various cleaning and restoration services. These agents are used in order to facilitate thorough cleaning of stained areas including the removal of any visible human blood stain.
These enzymatic formulations also contain other eco friendly substances that effectively negate the foul odor emitted by a decaying human tissue. This feature is especially useful in the thorough cleaning and restoration activities of professional companies. They no longer need to use a separate solution for disinfection as well as deodorization of the affected area of the home.
Blood Traces Eliminated By Active Oxygen Products
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1640785/blood_traces_eliminated_by_active_oxygen_products/
#448 Kleat, I don’t suppose Casey likes anyone but Casey. She’s certainly proven her dislike of the ladies as well, having stolen from those closest to her. On second thought, maybe she likes Lee, just a little bit though.
#465_momof3
Yes, and is there more to Annie’s testimony as well?
Kleat
“They found similar search results on her ex-boyfriend’s computer several months before discovering those on Casey’s computer.”
I took this as meaning that she researched how to make chloroform on her BF’s computer– not his saying on myspace
Q:> “We all have been saying KC doesn’t have a conscience so why does everyone think Caylee’s jaw relaxing is the reason for this tape?”
My wholly unprofessional opinion here: Casey is likely very much like her mum: she viewed Caylee not as a wholly separate individual, but as a partial extension of herself. During life, Caylee had to have played a bit of an attention-getting mechanism for Casey — can’t imagine her going anywhere in public without folks commenting on what an adorable and clever little baby Casey had, right? So remember those sexualized comments in defense of Casey as a “10″ beauty queen despite the nasty back acne?
A deceased Caylee suddenly not looking like the adorable little kid anymore had to be a nasty shock to Casey’s system (and also had to help along Casey’s mental distancing act from what HAD been her cute little accessory…) In our culture, Hollywood romanticizes the moment of death… people don’t just die and leave pretty corpses, not without a lot of help from morticians!
Just my two-cents…
WHOOPS: brainfart, meant to type:
So remember those sexualized comments CINDY MADE in defense of Casey as a “10″ beauty queen despite the nasty back acne?
Like mother, like daughter: we see how Cindy revels in Casey being perceived as beautiful and sexy (where in reality… she really wasn’t even that to write home about… Casey ain’t a gal who’d have ever won beauty contests. IMHO, Casey is mostly portrayed as being “beautiful” by the press because she’s a) middle-class, and b) she’s white.
JJ
re: “Weed Eater”
Although you read the words “weed eater” here, it is actually called a “weed barrier”, which is a thin, black, cloth-like synthetic material that is laid down for landscaping projects - - to block weeds and other unwanted growth from sprouting up between pavers, under decorative stones, just under the soil around flowers in beds, etc. It has tiny perforated holes that still allow for water, liquid drainage. Once put in place, this stuff lasts for years.
)
( A Weed Eater is actually the gas or electric trimmer with the plastic cutting “string”, eh, Blink?
Barrier Shmarrier I have 2 sick blinkettes and your moving my cheese… LOL.
WPG is correct. One similar to many that were observed and subsequently put into evidence, from the Anthony home, was found with Caylee.
B
Good post gigi. I agree with your assessment of the situation. Not only should we wonder how Casey can sit in her cell and eat snacks all day and nap when she feels like it, knowing that she killed Caylee. But even giving her the benefit of the doubt and saying that someone else killed Caylee … how could she sit in her cell and eat snacks all day … you get the point. And the same holds true for the rest of the damned family. It’s bad enough that your own daughter killed your granddaughter and you still find the time and ability to make money off of that and go on a vacation. But even if we believe you that Casey didn’t do it … same questions apply! Especially knowing all the dirty, disgusting evidence that’s coming out. Your granddaughter was being eaten by maggots, bugs and vermin and you go on a cruise?? God help you people!
I have not read all the comments here yet..but, I have read the documents..it is IMO that the Testosterone found in the syringe belongs to Cindy and George..IMO, she was trying to jump start her marriage and giving Georgie a little shot to pump his sex driver up..Testosterone given in cream formula or syringe will increase levels of sexual desire..and makes men become angry and sometimes depressed..Casey probabaly stole this.
I think this will be traced back to the A’s…these docs are very damaging..and will but the “Coffin Flies” back into Casey’s..”nail in the coffin”!
# 452 westsidehudson
“Did anyone else notice that there were 2 DNA contributors to the hair iron? (Q307/308) The major contributor was Casey Anthony. The minor contributor could not be analyzed further to breakdown percentages in population probabilities. Is this one circumstance that the defense will take advantage of saying it is Zanny?”
If in fact the father of Caylee is/was Hispanic, this may be the unidentified DNA source, coming from the use of the hair iron on Caylee. I believe her hair was straightened as some of the photos show her with what, IMO, looks like a natural curl.
Come to think of it, could a hot, hair iron/straightener be the source of that red mark under her eye in what we think are photos taken in early June?
Comment by ChicagoJudy — November 9, 2009 @ 4:33 pm
I don’t care about the cruise, the tatoos, snacks, etc, but your last point is compelling. Let’s forget about the car for one second. How can they not be angry with a perp that left their granddaughter wrapped in duct tape, garbage bags & left to decompose in the elements a mere block from their house? This is what really drives it home for me. In no way have they, in any TV appearances, ever spoke about desperately trying to find the killer, or bringing the killer to justice. It is contrary to so many other families that have had loved ones become murder victims. They have to always be asked that question. They don’t initiate it themselves, and that speaks volumes. It’s because they don’t want the one responsible to be caught or brought to justice.
Thanks Blink… will search for it now..
#443 cindyfromwisc.. Reason for me thinking that way.. if you have ever seen a dead person.. see the way the jaw seems to disconnect from the face.. tounge falls forward, most of the time out of the mouth.. it’s horrible. Even the most peaceful deaths result in this happening.. it’s disturbing to see. I’ve witnessed it several times in my career and it’s something you NEVER get used to.. sheri
wpgmouse, did you notice the sets of standards used for DNA comparisons in the last doc dump? Interesting that they used international sources, including Spain.
Blink, lol, too. Rhyme Shmymes are a personal favourite.
Sorry about your sick Blinkettes, it’s that time of year.
Blink, re post #212…if you believe this, then how can you believe that the first time Cindy knew that Caylee was dead, was the 13th of August?
IMO, Casey givens Caylee some kind of downer, she takes her to her bedroom, lays her on the bed, puts duct tape over her mouth, injects her with the Chloroform, either thru the tape or intermuscluar, then wraps her up in Winnie-the-Pooh blanket, the the laudry bag, then the plastic bag…puts her in the trunk..only to return later the next day to try and put her in the back yard..moved her around..couldn’t do it..put her back into the trunk and took her to the swamp…she placed the balloon, the disney bag and things important…forgetting the doll in the car..and not able to return.
I do agree with you, that in a fit of rage and split second thought, Casey takes the life of Caylee..and then on with life she goes..hoping to marry Tony..and start a new life, a new family. Perhaps she would get to move to NY also!
mom_in_il Im sorry I don’t have an answer regarding your question about the letter.
Thank you for posting the link to the documents.
In the link you provided, is information on where the World of Disney bag was found in relation to Caylee
http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html
After rereading this, I do think the evidence that was collected in Lane A is directly connected to Caylee. Here are some excerpts :
pg 10 0f 122
World of Disney bag found with holes and tears in the bottom. Soil and entomology items were adhered to interior and exterior of bag.- Found under leaves and vegetation barely visible pg 73 0f 122 WOD bag found west of skull and south, southwest of the corner of black plastic bag(pg74)
Inside WOD bag Gatorade cool Blue bottle with liquid/ white sediment inside possible toilet paper roll syringe in wrapper
2 pieces of paper were found beneath a grocery bag which was underneath and entwined with World of Disney bag the (grocery sack) was tied and an old looking beer bottle were collected all of these things were found in a pile Page 3 of 122
Pg 17 0f 122
Skull was found 19 feet 8 inches south of surburban drive 87 feet east of light pole
Disney bag found 19feet 81/2 inches south of suburban drive 86 feet 3 inches east of light pole
Black bag 18 feet 41/2 inches south of suburban drive 85 feet 5 inches east of light pole
Canvas bag 18 feet 1/2 feet south of suburban 85 feet 6 inches east of light pole
shorts found 18feet 91/2 inches south of suburban 87 feet 9 inches east of light pole
Page 74,75,76 77of 122 detailed description of how the skull and items collected as evidence were found in relation to each other.
“Packages” and “in” were recovered from this same area as the skull and shorts.(pg81)pieces of grey cloth (pull up pieces) were found to the south west of the shorts.(75)
The shorts were partially covered with leaves and vegetation they were on top of what was first thought to be a white towel- later discovered to be a blanket- tried to collect it roots were growing through it- part of the blanket was stuck underneath black plastic garbage bag located at the east of the scene when this was lifted to try to collect -it was noted that it was attached to the canvas bag so everything was collected later and when removed more bones were found underneath these bags.(pg77)
remnants of cloth from shirt was found directly northwest of skull including a strip with the tag part attached was also recovered west of skull(Pg 74,75) all these things were in Lane A -pg 55 of 122
#484…Sheri…I am a nurse, I fully understand what your saying and describing. What I am trying to say is I don’t that is why she taped Caylee. As much as we want to think she did, I feel it was done out of rage.
467, yes, it seems that Casey is as hardened, at her young and inexperienced (non-medical professional) life, to what would be felt by many others. Cindy herself, seems very hardened to have been able to speak about maggots and smell of decomposition so early after the car was recovered and as the possibility existed that they had ‘lost Caylee’. I still can’t see how she handled herself so ‘well’ (to use the term loosely)– how many family members could get out there, after smelling death in their own car and not worrying excessively about ‘the worst’ when they have a missing baby family member, who was last seen entering that same car.
Something does not compute in that family, they are hard as nails to be able to even speak about pizza and their missing child, without choking up in those early highly stressful hours and days.
Comment by wpgmouse — November 9, 2009 @ 4:51 pm
The note seemed to indicate female on that piece of evidence. That could mean that the major contributor was female and the second minor contributor also was, or that the major was female and the minor contributor’s gender was unknown. However, Caylee, Cindy, Lee, George and (Burns) have been eliminated as potential sources of DNA. It’s possible one of Casey’s girlfriends used it, or perhaps one of her boyfriends handled it, moving it off of a sink in the bathroom? Or, as the defense might argue, it is Zanny’s DNA?
Post # 238…remember that that little baby doll is STUFFED with cotton…think of all the evidence she might hold..like body fluids?
The paper towels have only been touched in this recent report..IMO..the state let these documents go..so the recent motions that the defense filed will shut them up! Just enough to say…”What ya gonna do NOW”! They must now see what strong evidense is still to come.
wpg
Just wanted to clarify that the exclusions had to do with the minor contributor. Casey was definitely the major.
Just to clarify, my use of Hispanic was specifically in reference to the debate surrounding Jesus O.
Most of us do not know who Caylee’s father is, but I suspect his hair has a natural curl, whatever his ethnic background may be.
Post #478..not acne..ID Nevus..MOLES on her back.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
IMO, those tattoo’s are fake..you can have the type kids use, made the way you want them on the internet..I had a girl reunion this year and one of my friends had tattoo’s made for us from the net..they looked real and lasted a good two weeks.
I would hate to think that anyone would use a hot iron/hair straightener on a 2-year-old baby. Those things ruin one’s hair. They literally fry it. You’d have to be a total ignoramus to ruin a baby’s pure virgin hair. But we’re talking about Casey here. You never know. And those sores under Caylee’s eyes sort of looked like little burns. I hope not!
I would like to agree. I am positive I did not blowdry blinkettes long goldie locks until she was 5.
B
Post #299..I so agree with you..with Caylee’s body bloated from the heat and remaining in the trunk for possibably three days..when she dumped her into the ground, she could of fractured her tibia. Her body would of been more brittle/lose and could of even come disconnected..that sounds better.
Prosecutors will also depose Mallory Parker on Nov. 12. Parker was Casey Anthony’s brother’s girlfriend at the time Caylee was reported missing.
http://www.wesh.com/news/20931980/detail.html
I hope Mallory remembers Lee’s statement from his depo with the state that she(Mallory)is #5 on his most important person/priority list…….in other words, close to the under-carriage of the bus
Post #326…Yes, the same was given to my husband..it was a compound made by a doctor..that the Pharmacist made up and placed into syringes.he rubbed it on his inside wrist…but after several months of use..it made him angry and was verbal agressive in his behavior..he also got depressed (George)..so he stopped using this drug.
ddderma, the trash bags were inside of the laundry bag.
Blink, I hope it is ok to post this link on here. It is a document that is from Dominic Casey saying what Baez told him to do if he found Caylee alive or deceased. It is an interesting read. If not ok then don’t post.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/11239565
It’s overwhelming to think of caylee looking like this. It takes one sick mind to be able to handle this! a bag leaking with fluids and this look as you describe sherri unfathomable how can a mom do this how can she not gag and freak out since she apparently freaked over other things like tony not coming back from new york unbelievable. I just cant wrap my brain around this I have a hard time seeing this visualizing this. I couldnt do it!! I just hope caylee gets justice that I can wrap my brain around yupp!!
so I hear that dominic casey and mallory will both be deposed. wonder if cindy is drilling mallory on what to say and what not to say. Mallory hopefuly will remember that as far as lee is concerned is is number five on the family scale definetely not a 10 in cindys eyes.
Here’s a link to Riccardo’s interview on 7/25/08. He wasn’t asked, at that time, about chloroform. so we can mark that one off the list.
http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Morales,%20Ricardo0725.pdf
~~Blink: KWIM means “Know What I Mean.” e.g., “She said she was 30-years-old but she acted 18, if you KWIM.”~~
Blink, WORD has always got your back, if you KWIM.
True dat and ty.
B
Legal Analyst Richard Hornsby says defense should change tactics and argue for accidental death. Has he been reading Ms. Blink over the past months??
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2009/11/casey-anthony-wesh-analyst-sees-chloroform-as-smoking-gun.html
Quoting WESH’s TV Guy:
‘Reporter Bob Kealing turned to Orlando defense attorney Richard Hornsby for analysis about the evidence. Hornsby focused on a syringe, with traces of chloroform, found near Caylee’s remains and on coffin flies found in Anthony’s car.
“I now understand why the state attorney is seeking the death penalty,” Hornsby said. “You have the premeditation filled in. You have the cause of death filled in.”
He described the chloroform as “the smoking gun, it’s the nail in the coffin” and the duct tape found on Caylee’s remains as the impetus for imposition of the death penalty.
Hornsby said the state has a solid case and the defense needs to change its strategy. His suggestion: Argue that Caylee’s death was unintentional and put Casey on the stand.’
Unquote
Lol, now there’s a novel idea. Somebody messenger a flashlight to their tunnel.
B
accidental chloroform overdose?? No such thing! Period– IMHO. Can Casey explain?
What did the FBI learn from Ricardo Morales? What does Ricardo know about Casey’s ‘involvement in stuff’?
Even ‘Scarface’ would not stomach killing a small child, even when it risked his own downfall and would cause his own demise.
wow where’s everyone? I know blink is taking care of her little blinkettes but everyone else is incognito.
I don’t know what to make of the styringe. I would say “Ignore it” but there’s so many threads of evidence going back to cloroform … I would say as a normal person … it’s rather dangerous and unusual chemical. There’s an awefull lot of coincidental mention of that normally rare chemical in this case. Everywhere ya look … like breadcrumbs leading all the way back home. Betcha it leads all the way to that bloody gingerbread house on Hopespring Dr.
Obviously the testosterone compounds found in the needle are steroids … does anyone think that Casey many have been experimenting with steroids?
Ok, just here me out … young women and teens abuse steroids to lose weight and tone muscles (the easy way) … what made me wonder was the condition of Casey’s back and why LE photographed her lower back and bacne … hormonal changes can cause acne, like starting/stopping birth control or starting/stopping steroids … also her weight gain that seem to start right away once she was in jail …
People have talked about her prison diet, snacks etc but she didn’t strike me as having a healthy diet before prison and she also didn’t seem to work out regularly (aside from pole dancing, both kinds!)
I know LE wanted a closer picture of her tatt, but why the lower back? I recall something about Baez complaining about KC having a problem with her waist chains or something when he was trying to get KC some more exceptions to the jail rules .. maybe they photographed it to show it wasn’t anything the jail was doing that caused the back problem …
OK, that’s it … now you can bash me!
Quality of diet, quality of ’snacks’, lack of sunlight, fresh air, sleeping for hours, laying on bed for hours– that can also affect skin condition– not based on expertise, just some common sense factors added in.
‘Gingerbread house’– gotta think about agreeing on that one, Fred Mc!
Geeze, sorry, pressed for focus today, I owe Fred a blink biscuit on the “bloody” gingerbread house comment, glib yes, but very illustrative.
Kleat, I owe you especially, a revisit: you have a grasp in provoking the loose ends in this case like no other, imo.
Thank you for your contributions.
B
wouldn’t be all that hard to get a sample of Caylee’s urine– not saying that’s so, just that couldn’t be so hard, if premeditated, but urine makes NO sense except to point blame to someone, a perp would NOT be so stupid as to plant evidence on themselves when they could as easily dump it almost anywhere, rinse the container and toss it just about anywhere ‘else’. It’s like FAR too much work to shift blame… anywhere but the obvious.
WESH has also updated (tonight) their regular article with the legal analyst comments:
http://www.wesh.com/news/21532034/detail.html
I think that the one attorney who has been doing her job for ‘Casey’, and who will be Casey’s ’saviour’ from the DP is only one person, and that’s Andrea Lyon. Toddy Macs role is over– he doesn’t do anything to understand his client, but Andrea Lyon showed that she is working ‘with’ Casey to understand Casey. That horrid seafoam outfit that Casey wore– matching perfectly the seafoam jacket of Ms. Lyons. That would not be how her mother would dress Casey, not how Casey’s friends would dress Casey, not how Casey’s male friends would want Casey dressed– but I wonder if it speaks much more to a common bond earned between advocate and client. Breaking down the barriers, becoming a unit. As opposed to the superficial bleached blonde tough talking, in your face, Linda K-B, Ms. Lyon is nothing to her client, if not a rock, trustworthy, no nonsense, caring about WHO Casey is, and someone would would offer what Casey hasn’t had in her life, a non-judgemental, strong, trustworthy-trust’earning’ figure to model herself ‘with’.
It seems to me, that all the ‘Cindyisms’ in Casey, all of the friend-superficial-tongue jewelled influences, are being stripped from Casey, bringing her to a point of accepting influence somehow. How else does one explain Casey wearing that gawd-awful matching seafoam polyester handmade blouse. What does that clothing or her appearance matter at all in this– nothing. Maybe this is a level of acceptance of trust that needs to happen.
Pay attention to Ms. Lyon’s non-condescending, non-dominant, attention to Casey, attention to each and every word that’s going on in the courtroom, each and every indication of what’s going on with her client.
I think Ms. Lyon, if she’s allowed to take the control she needs, will do so when she has her client’s trust. I think that matching outfit was a means to express that trust– Lyon is there for no one but Casey. Not so with any of the other ‘lawyers’.
Just an amateur impression– but I think Casey has an increasing bond with advocate Lyon, and if it has to express itself in ’sea-foam’, so be it.
Hi Denjet
nice to meet you.
I myself think it’s hard to say why and who the sterioids where for, did she steal them to pin it on someone or was she using them I doubt it but that’s just me. As for the tight chains well I think they could of tightened them to make her get a reality check !! as to why she was there. Her back was in horrible condition yes I can imagine her being horrified and I have nothing nice to say about her back! I dont have anything nice to say so I wont say it. I will say that her momma has a gross tatoee and casey has a gross back. I will leave it at that!!!
(btw– handmade is good– can be the best, not critical of homemade vs store-bot)
westsidehudson
I see we typed our “wanted to clarify” almost at the same time. lol
Seeing my comments follow right after yours reads like I made a snarky response by echoing your words. Please know your comments weren’t posted yet when I typed mine.
ps
I’ve tried repeatedly to post this new comment, but I keep getting a “duplicate message detected” error message. Really lol now.
wpg, maybe Mr. or Ms. S. Proxy is reading your mind!!
Blink,
Did I miss something in the new reports? While watching JVM tonight a gentlman on there said Caylee’s doll was injected with Chloroform? Now if you agree with the question, could it be she injected the doll knowingly Caylee would have this doll not far from her face?
Good Gravy. There is not a shred of physical evidence to support that.
B
Kleat!
What’s the “S.” in “S. Proxy”?
Kleat, here’s a link for Gatorade that might interest you:
http://www.labelwatch.com/prod_results.php?pid=602003
scroll and you’ll find:
GATORADE, COOL BLUE
INGREDIENTS: Water, Sucrose Syrup, Glucose Fructose Syrup, Citric Acid, Natural Flavor and Artificial Flavor, Salt, Sodium Citrate, Monopotassium Phosphate, Ester Gum, Blue 1.
then click on the individual ingredients:
ESTER GUM
OK Ingredient - This ingredient appears to be safe.
What it is:
Glazing agent, clouding agent, Stabilizer: Used as a chewing gum base and in some beverages.
What we know:
Glycerol esters of resin acids of wood rosins used as food additives in beverages and chewing gum are those prepared from wood rosin that is harvested from the stumps of the longleaf pine (Pinus palustris) and purified to a beverage-grade ester gum. This additive is approved for use by the FDA with a 100 parts per million limit in beverages (FDA regulation 21CFR172.615 & 172.735). This additive is also approved in Japan.
Other Names:
Glycerol Ester of Wood Rosin; Glyceryl rosinate; Rosin, glycerol ester.
——–
Another link of possible interest:
http://www.projectghb.org/what_is_ghb.htm
snipped from link on this “party”/”popular w. body builders” drug:
GHB: Gamma hydroxy butyrate or Gamma hydroxybutyric acid, Sodium Oxybate
Made From: gamma butyrolactone (GBL) and Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide - basically it is degreasing solvent or floor stripper mixed with drain cleaner…
Description: A clear liquid. Looks just like water. Can be mistaken for water because it is usually found in a small (30ml) clear plastic bottle, a water bottle, or even GATORADE bottles, which contains several doses. …
Blink, how would that look for the defense, both from the judge’s standpoint, and from the jury’s, if they did switch tactics and take up Mr.Hornsby’s “accidental death” angle? I would think that’s about as prepostrous as going down the “nanny did it” road. Also, I would think that if they deviated from the original “nanny did it” defense, that would end any remaining credibility they had left
Blink,
sorry to ask such a question but it was just something that I heard tonight on the JVM show on channel 34. I thought it was something that I missed in the dump.
Kleat, so what do you think? Do you think Lyons is attempting to gain Casey’s trust for the sole purpose of bringing her willingly to the bargaining table?
westsidehudson
Do you have a page # for the DNA results on the flat iron?
I’m only finding that swabs were taken from the male plug end of the cord.
TY.
wpgmouse– the Ms. S. Proxy (S = Server)
(strike Gatorade from my shopping list!! At least it has no gator parts in it, that we know of)
Thanks, Word Girl– for the Ricardo check!
momof3, i’m of two minds about whether the disney bag is related. The place was a trash dump as we all know (there was an old tv, a tripod, and just gobs of other discarded things). And of course the area was flooded and a hurricane even blew through during the many months the body was there. Would that disney bag have stayed in place?
For me, the bag was absent many things that were found in the laundry bag, and this bag was unsealed.
#490 Kleat.. I personally think cindy was mad as hell at casey when she described the car.. and i mean MAD.. remember what lee said. Cindy ran into the room and screamed at casey “what have you done!” then 911 calls .. then we have the phone call when she calls casey out “if you hadn’t LIED you wouldn’t be there” I think as a nurse SHE KNEW (just like george did) when she smelled that car. if you’ve ever smelled that smell.. you know! Only after the bond hearing did cindy start to “”"spin”"”. I personally LOVE the youtube video that cindy states.. on camera, “I’m a nurse of decomposition”.. wth?
#525_wpg
Pg 6_(PDF 11988-12070)
I think that you are right thta it is the cord. wpgmouse.
I heard the same thing about the chloroform in the doll on JVM last night. I think the guy just didn’t know what he was talking about. Probably didn’t understand the discovery documents, and his comment certainly would be “bombshell” information, don’t ya think??
I am desperate for a pundit that knows the facts of this case, lol.
B
#499_momof3
Excellent post. Thank you. It helps to visualize the proximity.
I think Mallory’s depo (for the state) was scheduled for some time this month. It should be soon, if I recall correctly.
Comment by Fred McNeil — November 9, 2009 @ 10:12 pm
Yes Fred. And I’m sure that it was subjected to additional testing, if only fingerprint analysis. Maybe there are remaining lot numbers on the gatorade bottle itself, as well. There could have been a financial connection to the Gatorade and Casey, maybe it was purchased at Target?
Kleat_
The ingredients sound disgusting, when broken down. I don’t think that I will be purchasing Gatorade any time soon.
Comment by Todd in Tulsa — November 10, 2009 @ 12:40 am
“if they did switch tactics and take up Mr.Hornsby’s “accidental death” angle?”
I think that it will be difficult to gain traction on this defense, although it might have been a smarter one. Baez went on the record in the depos to question the Anthonys about accidental death and he intentionally elicited “no accident”from them.
Agreed, that, and the defense pending exculpatory revelations due Feb. 1, mark your calendars.
B
Thanks again suz, so that pretty much means that the body was in the trunk for a relatively short time. I guess it goes along with what the evidence from the FBI is saying. For some odd reason, it really bothers me that Caylee was just put in the trunk and laid there for several days.
Denjet, Hi: I thought that too about Casey using steroids, in relation to her jail weight gain.
Does it seem like there is a lot of evidence yet to come? This way of having a separate report for each aspect of testing is so frustrating.
Setting all the forensic evidence aside, there are just some things that, I believe, no jury will ever get past.
-Casey not reporting her daughter missing for a month.
-Casey’s continued lies in the search for her daughter
-Cindy’s explanation of “Casey’s not talking to keep her family from harm.”
-Re: above point: Now that Caylee is gone - and no further harm can come to her - why not spill the beans?
_NO outrage coming from any family members after the discovery of Caylee’s remains. If they were all innocent in this - one would think they would be SCREAMING from the highest roof top..FIND THE MURDERER THAT DID THIS TO CAYLEE. But, alas…no such proclamation. All is quiet in the quest for the “killer.”
There is just so much WRONG with the reactions of every Anthony member..it’s hard to know where to start.
Can the prosecution weave all these facts into a closing statement? Can the lack of action on the part of the Anthony’s come in at trial? Perhaps when they are on the witness stand - it will.
If, of course, this goes to trial. I have to believe the state wants to see the ultimate justice carried out for Caylee - so I pray this does go to trial.
Caylee deserves, at least, that much.
Truly - I am still in awe that it has gone this far. But, then again, knowing the players in this case…it really isn’t a surprise.
Someone over at WS posted this comment, it is in the syringe thread:
“In the text messages Ricardo phoned Amy on the morning of the 3rd of July and asked her to take out the trash.”
I can’t find the source of this info, if it is true. I looked at some f Amy’s texts. Can anyone help?
I did find this in his transcript:
(handwritten pg1299/pg 20/Ricardo’s transcript)_Casey washing clothes at Ricardos on the 2nd, he never saw the clothes but he saw her coming up from the garage.
Here is the rest of the post that I neglected to include, that makes it compelling to find the source of data:
***From the text messages, Casey woke Amy up at 9.30am, on the morning of June 30 and asked her to let her in, Casey slept there until the day of the 5th of July. In the text messages Ricardo phoned Amy on the morning of the 3rd of July and asked her to take out the trash. She said she had already gone to but it was empty.. There were 4 people staying there that week, surely the trash would not have been empty..Who removed it? I believe it was Casey.
I reckon even if they can’t link it to casey, it’s enough for the state to say, well, she was looking up chloroform on the pc and lo and behold, what do we find right with caylee’s remains but a bottle with chloroform in it.
tSo how will the defense deal with the gatorade bottle? Do they just have to show that there is nothing linking the bottle to casey (she doesn’t drink that flavor, she doesn’t use steroids, she doesn’t have access to needles, there are no prints, no dna, that site was a trash dump and that was just random trash, there is no proof as to how caylee died, etc.)?
Or do they have to go further and talk about the strange concoction in the bottle and how that trace amount of chloroform (is it just a trace? i can’t tell how many parts per million/billion or whatever are in the syringe/bottle) is sometimes found in tap water or could have occurred environmentally (bacteria breaking down carbon tetrachloride in an anaerobic environment releases chloroform, for instance, and so do some marine algae somehow) or show that underground steroid labs might sloppily include chloroform in their formula, having used chloroform to extract the testosterone from the source. IDK, just riffing, wondering how they are likely to address it.
“Drinking water levels as high as 311 ppb have been reported in public water supplies, although most of the reported concentrations
are less than 50 ppb, typically ranging between 2 and 44 ppb. Levels in drinking water derived from groundwater contaminated with leachate from landfills and hazardous waste sites can sometimes be much higher.” http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp6-c5.pdf
Kleat, thanks for the info. Fist article I see is Robin Alive in Orlando - Mark NeJame Rewards Roy Kronk. Date January 15, 2009. I was hoping to really get to the beginning of Blink/Anthony Saga. But I will start here. Thanks for your help. And thanks for all of your insightful information. Annie
In reference to my last post, I found a text message, but I would still need to find some conversation or text that implies that the trash was mysteriously taken out:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1677908/Amy-Huzienga-Cell-Records-Part-2
PG 35_# 891_When you wake up could you push the trash out to the (sic) jfront?I forgot sorry. If you miss it no worries we’ll do it sunday.
I don’t think the Gatorade bottle will be mentioned by the state. Unless there is DNA or fingerprints (which we don’t know yet), this evidence is extraneous. There was chloroform residue on the trunk sample (Q44 and Q45).
Comment by suz — November 10, 2009 @ 10:22 am
suz
I don’t think that it is advantageous for the defense to admit any connection to that bottle. Jurors will see through the smoke screen or intended diversion of going into the chemical contaminants in water. If there is some kind of direct link to Casey, they will probably say that the mystery person planted it there to ‘frame ‘ her’. It is too sinister of an item to ‘own’ based on the location, know what I mean? If it is Casey’s , then by virtue of it being next to the remains strongly implies her presence at the sight where the body was dumped; hence she dumped the body.
Punctuation gone wild, for me today!
Comment by ada — November 10, 2009 @ 11:00 am
The state already has strong evidence linking her to the body (from the trunk). She mentions the smell herself. She abandons the car. The duct tape is horrific. She NEVER called police. There is no paper trail on on any Zenaida. (even if there are some questions on DNA on items). Connection to the syringe would be icing on the cake.
Annie, you have to keep going back to ‘next page’– all the way back, the first article I saw was Zenaida Gonzalez.
And remember, Blink didn’t start this site at the beginning of the story.
Thanks Kleat, correct, I wrote for scaredmonkeys while this site was being developed. I think everything ported though, but the dates might reflect the launch date here.
B
suz, there is also the ‘picture’ of Casey, her history of behaviours that would be consistent with what we are seeing– this isn’t a simple, left the gate open, the baby got out, or someone spyed the baby in the front, snatched and killed her. There is so much more than this scenario, the complicated story of kidnapping on top of the original nanny story of a nanny who loved Caylee taking the child, the prior chloroform searches so there’s needles, there’s chloroform, there’s other strange ‘clues’ like steroids, the lost phone, the phonecall from Caylee on the very day her mother retrieved her from her boyfriend’s place, the dead squirrels plastered on the frame because her dad must have run over something– (her dad had the car that week, what was he doing driving after being hospitalized for his mini-strokes?), not just the Casey to Cindy stories, but everything else to everyone else. The saga of Zenaida Gonzalez with her accident that gained her a hospital stayover, a brand new dad-bought car, the details of her injuries, turned into more details as the story stretched on to another day, piled on and on.
George said that in the very beginning– this is what Casey does.
Remember what George said to LE early on– Casey does things, then keeps piling more stuff on.
Thanks, Blink– I wondered why I didn’t find stories on SM– your readership has grown faster and wider than a Casey lie, from that first story few comments! You can’t chart that rise because they don’t make graph paper that tall!!!
Baez use his ‘no accident’ response from the Anthony’s to try to backfire on the Anthony’s for covering up an accident so they don’t get sued over house insurance scenario, and so they can keep up the money-scam of fake missing child story? George was the person who ran over something he didn’t know was human not animal, and kept the remains in Casey’s trunk for 10 days, thus Casey drove Cindy’s vehicle the week she was off work, and Casey went to stay with a BF anyway so didn’t miss her child but called everyday to find out when her parents would bring Caylee to see her? But George brought the car to Casey, and gave it back to her after he quickly tossed the animal remains in the woods with some garbage he’d also found in a disney bag by the side of the road near the animal remains, being a good samaritan and all and he wouldn’t want to leave that in Casey’s car before she got it back, no time for anyone to clean the trunk or car frame, before delivered back to Casey. She said she’d clean it.
Simple. And in all the fuss, neither parent nor grandparents realized that Caylee was missing, each trusted the other to have her. No reason to report a bag with a dead animal that got run over and moved by Good-Sam into the woods. No reason to suspect a missing baby in the family.
The whole kidnap story was Casey’s own fabrication to deal with the horror of the situation and to protect her family for what they unknowingly did.
There. End of case. Casey should have come out with that sooner!!
Hey Blink –
Don’t know if you’ve seen Bill Schaeffer’s new blog. He’s a local attorney that has been doing some of the legal analysis. I see Marinade Dave’s already been there. Your call to post this link or just visit yourself. http://www.wftv.com/caseyanthonyblog/index.html
Keep up the stellar work!
Re: Annie
I did that too (went back “next page” until I couldn’t go any further and that article was about Roy Kronk from Jan. 2009. I guess this must be when the site launched? Oh well, either way, it has made for interesting reading
Regarding the syringe, I believe the unstable nature of chloroform when exposed to air would require that it be mixed immediately prior to use. The syringe was most likely to introduce the final mix of compounds that produced the chloroform gas. I’m sure they examined the Gatorade bottle for needle punctures.
Here’s a fact sheet on the gas. Pay special attention to the second paragraph titled “Properties.”
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s038chlo.pdf
ah, thanks, Westsidehudson, that makes total sense. (but do you think her crack legal team will bungle it by addressing it? lol)
wpg, didn’t Casey also take out the trash from Tony’s place, as per Tony’s LE interview? How Tony would put the bag on his tailgate, drive over past the dumpster and toss it in. But IIRC, Casey wanted to do it one day.
She had quite the party pack of pop empties in there, for a non-pop drinking girl (as she laid the foundation for in her Oct 14th chat in the holding room, when offered a drink of pop– and another bit that’s interesting, a nervous person gets a dry mouth– innocent or not, being booked for capital murder, missing child, there would be anxiety, nerves for some reason, being accused and jailed could be scarey, but not for Casey, she was just fine without a drink of anything, thank you).
Heads up everyone, Bill Schaeffer now has a blog over at the WFTV site. It does look a little ‘halloween’ trying to read through the black background, orange headers and all– hope they make it easier on the eyes.
It should allow the computer voice to read it– that will save eye strain.
Intelligent (somewhat) criminals always have a backup plan. Casey didn’t. She put all her chips in the hope that someone stole that car from Amscot. After that, she could proclaim plausible deniability. Although then, it shifts into the gray area of “what if”. Would she have still waited a certain amount of time, or was she waiting, and checking every so often to see if it had been taken, then immediately after it was gone, she would have reported it stolen, police track it down, thief gets found in a car that Casey had just used in the murder of her daughter, but the grand theft auto specialist behind the wheel goes down for much more. I can completely see it as plausible that Casey would have let someone receive a death sentence for a crime she committed
#71_Kleat: ON Q241_
The smell of urine in the Crystal Light bottle
I clipped this from WS. Also, go on that thread, Valhall
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?s=2d5e1ff48f92adf29adb4d7cbef485df&t=91317&page=10
CLIPPED QUOTE:
Q241-liquid from the car/ URINE (FROM JWG)
——————————————————————————–
Prior to testing, the FBI analyst noted that the contents of the Crystal Light bottle smelled of urine (page 11512). Because it might have been urine, the question was asked of SA Savage 1) from where did the contents originate and 2) did they wish to have it tested for DNA and toxicology.
When I first read the communication log I thought that meant the substance was not tested. However, it was tested - chemically analyzed - and determined not to be urine. Therefore, DNA testing was never ordered.
Why did the FBI analyst note that the substance smelled like urine? Because two chemicals found in the substance produce odors that can be mistaken for urine:
Trimethylamine - the source of the “ammonia” smell.
Dimethyl disulfide - the source of the underlying “sulfur” / “rotten egg” smell.
Additional links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylamine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylamine_N-oxide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldehyde
http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/organic/TRIMETHYLAMINE.htm
Trimethylamine, a simple tertiary amine, is a colorless, liquefied gas; boils at -4 C; soluble in water, ether, and alcohol. It is used as a raw material of choline chloride, quaternary ammonium compounds, ion exchange resins, tetramethyl ammonium hydroxide, cationic starch reagents, phase transfer catalyst, oil field chemicals, pesticides as well as a warning agent for natural gas and flotation agent.
trimethylamine definition - medical
tri·meth·yl·a·mine (trī-mĕthˌə-lə-mēnˈ, -lămˈēn, -mə-thĭlˈə-mēnˌ)
noun
A degradation product of nitrogenous plant and animal substances.
WSH, and we all thought we couldn’t do organic chemistry 101!!! (Thanks girl!–great save, am greatful!) Nice stuff, that trimethylamine (doesn’t happen to be a nasty carcinogen too, does it?) — but since Florida doesn’t have freezing temps too often in the summer/fall season, that Crystal Light bottle must have been very well sealed to keep this volatile from ‘volatil’ing’.
Dominic Casey not to testify this week– his depo has been put off until December 16th, to give him more time to prepare. (judge must have worried that Dominic would have not enough time to remember the truth vs fiction, or maybe he is giving him time to be PROPERLY prepared by his lawyer who seems to be part of the defense team– or is it the lawyer who now has to get properly read on the case– clearly she was not and admitted it, in the last hearing for the same issue under Judge Rodriguez). (Tennis’s bill just went up!)
http://www.wftv.com/news/21573563/detail.html
Anthonys Familys’ P.I. Deposition Postponed
http://www.wftv.com/news/21573563/detail.html
EXCERPT:
Posted: 12:18 pm EST November 10, 2009Updated: 12:40 pm EST November 10, 2009
ORLANDO, Fla. — The Anthony family’s private investigator will have to answer questions under oath in the case against Casey Anthony, but he’ll get more time to prepare.
Private Investigator Dominic Casey was set to be deposed on Thursday, but it’s been pushed back until December 16. Dominic Casey filed a motion (read) on October 21, to stop his November deposition.
Kleat
I supplied the Gatorade ingredients list thinking the bottle likely contained some of the Gatorade liquid itself.
One of the ingredients is Esther Gum, which is derived from the longleaf pine (Pinus palustris). Wondered if this could be a terpene source. Esther Gum is also a clouding agent, so wonder if that contributed to the sediment layer.
I don’t know if the drug GHB itself was identified, but some of it’s ingredients are common to those found within the Gatorade bottle. GHB on the social circuit is also known as “roofies” and “liquid ectasy”.
Don’t know if CA took this party drug but the street names were brought up in different manners within the LE interviews of some of the friends.
GHB is also interesting because along with steroids and Gatorade, it is popular with bodybuilders and gym users. I do not believe CA herself would ingest or inject steroids, but she probably knew those that did. It comes in clear liquid form, capsules and white powder/salts form. Could it also have contributed to the sediment layer.
GHB, like chloroform, can be home-made, and ingredients found in the making of these 2, have been traced in that found Gatorade bottle.
The liquids were found to have traces of compounds specific to a scented cream - - wonder if this could be a steroid cream.
Compounds were also found coming from a brand of motor oil and compounds common in oven cleaner. A piece of paper-like fabric was found within that Gatorade bottle. Wonder if that was a piece of synthetic “paper towel” used in conjuction with the motor oil and oven cleaner to do an oil change and cleaning of metal parts.
An oil change pan was taken from the A’s home and swabs were taken.
Blink, Bill Sheaffer, legal analyst, has started his own blog on WFTV.
westsidehudson
It would be interesting to see what DNA, if any, was found on the areas of the flat iron areas. Perhaps hair samples were retrieved that were caught in the hinging or assembled portions of the iron. The plug end was tested to see who all used that iron, but we don’t know who all that flat iron was used on.
I still can’t rule out the iron may have been used on Caylee’s hair, despite the fact she was a toddler. Whether true or not, it has been stated by some in the A’s circle that Cindy had a “problem” with those of Hispanic heritage. If Caylee, through her father, inherited characteristics common to that heritage, wonder how far Cindy would go to conceal that (if at all, because we don’t know).
Also can’t rule out that iron was used on or by someone known to CA that she is trying to implicate in the role of “nanny”. CA made a big deal of the existence of that flat iron during her jail visits that she knew were being recorded. It would be most likely a female, and not necessarily of Hispanic heritage (like ZFG).
CA could very well be trying to frame a female. A female could also be framed with that Gatorade bottle.
Kleat
Just to clarify, I didn’t mean to sugguest motor oil and oven cleaner were actually poured into the bottle. That piece of synthetic toweling (made specifically for automotive use) likely had these products on it if used or contaminated during an oi change, which is turn could get connected to the the oil change pan, the A’s home, and the Pontiac. Possible CA used a piece of this toweling because it was close and available, in the absence of gloves to conceal her fingerprints. Now that I think of it, perhaps the cream was an automotive hand cleaner.
About GHB - is it possible that this is what Casey might have used on Amy H. on the night her money went missing and Casey convinced her that she had been sleepwalking?? Could she actually have been making GHB? I didn’t realize that it could be home-made.
Kleat
Sorry to go on like this, but the motor oil was linked to a particular manufacturer. This company also manufactures or supplies these automotive
“synthetic towels” in sheets and rolls, which are designed for use with oil and oil spills.
Let’s not forget that the hair iron could very well have been “lifted” by Casey, and that it actually belonged to one of her friends. Cindy questioned Casey about it during one of the jail visits, and my impression from that conversation was that it had suddenly appeared at the Anthony residence one day and Casey told her Zanny had given it to her. Knowing Casey, I really doubt that she bought it. IMO she stole it from someone and the extra hair/DNA belongs to a friend, and LE knows where it came from.
Steady, this is my opinion as well. I think it was stolen
B
redhat, I think if the syringe were used with regards to chloroform, it would be to extract the tiny (tiny) bit of chloroform produced from the bottom of the mixture. If you read the ‘how to’ directions, you’ll see that you can essentially slop the other two ingredients together. You just need plenty of ice on hand to keep the mixture cool as it generates lots o’heat and the chloroform gas could potentially boil off, so you have to keep it nice and cooled down.
Takes about 20 minutes for the chemical reaction to finish, and then the chloroform settles at the bottom as white bubbles or sometimes white crystals. You need to get through the large amount of liquid on top to reach the chloroform at the bottom. You can pour some of the liquid off if you are careful, so it’s easier to reach the chloroform. You can’t even use an eyedropper, as one site cautions: “EXTRACT THE CHLOROFORM WITH A SEPARATION FUNNEL OR OTHER INSTRUMENT. DON’T USE AN EYEDROPPER; HEAT FROM YOUR BODY WILL CREATE PRESSURE IN THE DROPPER AND CAUSE CHLOROFORM TO SQUIRT OUT.”
So, to me, IF that bottle was used to make chloroform (which would be silly because even with pool shock, I don’t think it would produce enough useable chloroform, though I don’t know for sure), and of course you are supposed to use glass vessels because chloroform reacts dangerously with plastic—though maybe she didn’t pay attention to the instructions—then maybe the syringe could be used to extract the chloroform.
Did they test for phosgene? Cuz chloroform (esp. the unstable, homemade variety) can react with plastic to create deadly phosgene gas. That’s what strikes me so odd about the FBI lab taking big huffs to smell what was in those bottles (”sniff—smells like household chemicals to me”)—ok, they probably didn’t take big huffs, but that they smelled it at all was weird because it’s just plain old dangerous. But don’t take my word for it; looky here:
(snip)
Lessons Learned Statement:
Phosgene can be generated from chloroform. Chloroform stabilized with alcohol should be purchased, and the chemical should be treated as time-sensitive. An industrial hygienist should be contacted before using a container of chloroform that is six months old or older.
Discussion of Activities:
Researchers at the University of California, Los Angeles were using a three-year-old bottle of chloroform. They noticed that the people working with the chloroform were becoming quite ill. Subsequent analysis showed concentrations of 15,000 ppm of phosgene in the head space of the bottle and a 1.1% concentration of phosgene in the bulk solution. Exposure to 20 ppm for 1-2 minutes can cause severe lung injury and 570 ppm for 1 minute can cause death. The chloroform was stored properly and was stabilized with amylene. (Note: Chloroform comes in three basic varieties: a) no stabilizer present, b) stabilized with amylene, and c) stabilized with an alcohol such as ethanol.) more here
http://www.bnl.gov/esh/shsd/programs/Program_Area_Chemicals_Hazard_Alert_Phosgene.asp
Now if casey just wanted to create deadly phosgene gas, I reckon she wouldn’t need the syringe.
I don’t know, i still can’t figure what that bottle is all about.
#569
I think it was in George’s deposition that he was asked about towels he had in the garage. Do you think they may be a link to what you are describing or possibly to the towels with the “grave wax” on them?
westside, i much prefer THIS description of dimethyl disfulfide i found when I was looking up all those Crystal Light bottle chems, too;
….dimethyl disulfide, which is one of the volatile compounds identified with human fecal odor.
ODDLY, it goes on to say “# Dimethyl disulfide (methyl disulfide) is listed by the FDA as a synthetic flavoring substance that is permitted for direct addition to food for human consumption (21 CFR 172.515), and it occurs naturally in certain foods (e.g., cabbage, brussels sprouts, garlic, onions).”
# Vapor/air mixtures of dimethyl disulfide above 24°C may be explosive.
wpgmouse, help me—where are you seeing a piece of fabric in the gatorade bottle? I can only find that rectangular piece of clear plastic (Q238.2—described at top of 11518, and shown in the pics on 11521) that was found inside.
I had assumed the oil detected was the vegetable oil that was already in the gatorade (kind of gives some of the flavors that cloudy look). From the Gatorade website: “What is brominated vegetable oil (BVO)? What is its purpose? Does it add fat calories to the product?
BVO is used in the manufacturing of some Gatorade flavorings to provide stability to the flavor emulsion. It is used in very low levels and does not contribute any fat calories.”
Where did you find the cool motor oil info?
Look what just popped up on WFTV
ORLANDO, Fla. — The Anthony family’s private investigator will have to answer questions under oath in the case against Casey Anthony, but he’ll get more time to prepare.
Private Investigator Dominic Casey was set to be deposed on Thursday, but it’s been pushed back until December 16. Dominic Casey filed a motion (read) on October 21, to stop his November deposition.
Dominic has been trying to get out of the deposition. He says because he once worked for Casey’s defense team, he shouldn’t have to answer any questions.
Dominic Casey was videotaped in the woods near the Anthony family home in November, one month before Caylee Anthony’s remains were found there on December 11.
Could be interesting. I’m on a mission here and may need some help.
Last week I saw on the net a receipt from Target that Casey had bought. Am now trying to find it again to see if she bought Gatorade and cannot find it. Anyone? Or if someone has already checked this out, please let me know as I could be looking till Christmas. lol.
GHB looks a bit more complicated to make than chloroform, and its ingredients are a little harder to come by (hey, thanks homemade drug users for making it harder to find lye to make authentic soft pretzels, grrr). I’m not seeing the components in the gatorade bottle. What am I missing?
Amazing investigators here…whew!
The idea of GHB is really interesting…it can knock you so far out that almost nothing can wake you up.
If GHB was accessible ( or make-able), it is hard for me to understand why anyone would mess with chloroform…unless it was specifically to kill.
My daughter took GHB, once, at an event…she ended up in the hospital,unconscious. She was out for hours…nothing the docs did could wake her up.( I drove into a ditch when I heard she was there, and was by her side, heart in mouth, the whole time).
She was lucky…she awoke with no ill effects ( and with quite a lesson. BTW, she is a great kid…it was a BIG mistake).
This certainly makes me think again about Caylee sleeping “through anything”.
Everything about this case, since I first heard about it, makes my heart ache .And it just gets worse…
joan, I have been looking for the receipts today, too, lol. I didn’t see any gatorade products in her Target purchases (with the beer, four pounds of cherries, etc.). I can’t find the winn-dixi receipt, and the Amy H 74 page check fraud doc (which I can only assume contains the receipts—it has the pictures of casey shopping) keeps crashing on me.
You can look at the Target receipts in the July timeline here http://www.acandyrose.com/caylee_anthony_timeline2008July.htm scroll down and then click on the images of receipts–there are a few of them in there, but no winn dixie receipt, just the check.
Hi dddeerma
The condition of KC’s back and steroids may have absolutely no connection … just something I thought once the steroids were found …
Inmates are usually tested when they’re booked so I guess OSCO would know …
I just can’t get past why LE would photograph KC’s back if it weren’t evidence of some sort … Baez would have insisted the photos be cropped wouldn’t he?
I’ve tried and tried to find the article with the complaints Baez had about the way KC was treated and something about the waist chains …
If anyone can shed some light on that, I would really appreciate it …
TIA
suz
I must, must, must leave my computer for now - - Blink’s site has made it so difficult for me to do that, you know what I mean?
Can’t give you the specific pages right now, but the paper-like cloth is noted and listed in the FBI documents with the removal of all items within the Gatorade bottle.
The motor oil and other compounds are listed on one of those last pages, the pages presented side-ways. Many of those compounds listed come from a motor oil specifically manufactured by a manufacturer denoted by the letters cz. I think I found first found the initials “cz” on another link when researching that motor oil brand and then went further to the manufacturer’s site. That site then listed its product line which included a synthetic paper towel, if you will.
Be back later.
ah, wpgmouse, i see you are saying she could have obtained already- powdered GHB, as opposed to making it. Very good. Does that fit with the chloroform in the bottle?
Wow, hard to add to this due to the high number of spot on comments. (BTW:239 by suz was especially spot on) I am throwing in me tuppence
about the syringe and how she got it, if it was indeed in her possession. As a long-time drug abuser in recovery (my “street creds here: http://www.associatedcontent.com/tpm“), I can say without reservation that getting a syringe is no biggie. Me mum was a nurse and she always had one for emergencies (as pointed out by quite a few here) but I never would of dreamed of stealing that one. Drunk, broke folks with diabetes were a good source in early addiction. Later on, when all shame was gone, the health department needle exchanges were the only reason I donna have hep c. Anyone can say “I donna have any dirtys to turn in. Please let me get a couple so I donna have to use one from someone else. NO ID and no volunteer would turn you away. Well, that’s it. Just a little insight for the folks here who may not know just how easy getting syringes can be. I hope it helps, especially Blink, in future cases as well.
Thanks suz. You know, I have had to read and re-read the great posts here in order to understand half of what everyone is saying. See, late again with the D. Casey depo. I swear, the trial will be over and I’ll still be looking for clues. You guys are great.
Everyone has been really quite in the defense team and the A’s…kinds strange….no noise made, with so much dumped.
Do you think it is possible that the small piece of gray material come from casey’s pants? Perhaps a hem tore or a leg rip?
Somewhere in the past day or so I was reading that the amount of chloroform found in the needle is way too minuscule to ever be used by the State. Could this be true, do you think?
I think the defense is going to have a hard row to hoe if they try to plea the deal. There are too many ABSOLUTELY innocent statements and too many comments about what a “perfect” mother Casey was. To get a lesser charge there has to be some EVIDENCE that said “perfect” mother had a moment when she wasn’t “perfect.” The jury won’t even be allowed to consider a lesser charge given all that.
wpg and blink thanks for answering my weed eater question yesterday. just now catching up after Ida blew through
Okay, now I’m wondering if there could have been urine in the Crystal light bottle as well as chemicals. Choline is in foods but also supplements. Some believe that it facilitates fat metabolism. If someone is taking anabolic steroids, might they also take choline to reduce fat? Note below**** Perhaps someone was taking lots of it? Just another perspective:
Choline and its metabolites are needed for three main physiological purposes: structural integrity and signaling roles for cell membranes, cholinergic neurotransmission (acetylcholine synthesis), and as a major source for methyl groups via its metabolite, trimethylglycine (betaine) that participates in the S-adenosylmethionine synthesis pathways.
****When choline is metabolized by the body, it may form trimethylamine, a compound with a fishy odor. Hence, when large amounts of choline are taken the person may suffer from a fishy body odor.
Due to its role in lipid metabolism, choline has also found its way into nutritional supplements which claim to reduce body fat; but there is little or no evidence to prove that it has any effect on reducing excess body fat or that taking high amounts of choline will increase the rate at which fat is metabolised.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/choline/
Lipid (fat) transport and metabolism
Fat and cholesterol consumed in the diet are transported to the liver by lipoproteins called chylomicrons. In the liver, fat and cholesterol are packaged into lipoproteins called very low density lipoproteins (VLDL) for transport through the blood to tissues that require them. Phosphatidylcholine is a required component of VLDL particles. Without adequate phosphatidylcholine, fat and cholesterol accumulate in the liver (see Deficiency).
You’all made me go look at the Target receipts didn’t you? I’m sure some of you have noticed the purchase of Sudafed on one of the receipts, right? Do you think ‘KC the chemist’ was into cooking up a little meth too?
# 551 Kleat, George, in the beginning when he was being more honest with LE, said (paraphrasing) that Casey would take things up to the absolute limit and then push even harder over that limit. She did this when she was defending her story of “work”, boss, and co-workers existence over LE’s proof that she didn’t work at Universal.
Casey went over that boundary, pushed even harder in the face of their proof, when she strode down the hall leading LE to her office.
Did she expect LE to surrender somewhere along the hall and sigh, “Yeah, okay, little lady, save your steps, I guess you do work here.” Girlfriend just does not fly under the “normal” weather conditions. She thinks she can “handle” anybody.
I think AL would have a very difficult job getting the recalcitrant Casey to plea, if that is what she’s working on. Casey didn’t seem to know enough to be afraid of two cops pushing her to the wall. (Of course they were men!)
Maybe AL is trying to approach Casey from a fashionista comraderie. Must we look forward to seeing the two come to court dressed as the Olsen Twins? Casey already has the big sunglasses. Bring on the kohl eyes!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0911/09/ijvm.01.html
ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST
Also revealed: photos of a baby doll found inside Casey`s car; prosecutors say more traces of chloroform were found on this doll. Why is this evidence so very significant?
JOE TACOPINA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY
TACOPINA: You know, I mean, coffin flies. These are flies. If there was pizza in that car, you know, flies would be on that car. I don`t think that`s the fact that wins the day for the prosecution, Jane. What I think wins the day and I think we don`t need to really go much further than this. Yes, the chloroform evidence is bad. Especially because it looks like there was one search for it on a computer and two, injected into a doll almost like as a practice.
And in addition…Casey and Tracey M. had a little fashionista thing going on,too. Casey wanting Tracey to wear a watch on her ankle so it would look like Casey’s own monitoring ankle thingy. And the middle school chums exchanged clothes so Tracey could pose as Casey one day.
All very professioal on Tracey’s part. And now the Padilla team is sad and “down” about the latest docs released. Oh, me. Maybe there are roadblocks to helping Casey’s defense? Yep, I am suspicious.
She more than likely mixed the chloroform elsewhere(in a glass bottle)and disposed of the needle and syringe in the plastic Gatorade bottle.
Comp. searches for chloroform, trunk w/ chloroform, dead baby w/ a bottle containing chloroform residue nearby. How much more do we need? We won’t get a confession.
Hi Blink,
I know that you’re a busy mom and you have my sympathy for dealing with sick children. IMO better a sick child than a sick husband! Do you have some kind of office hours? I know we all expect you to be here 24/7. I am just grateful for any time that you are here.
I have been over to Marinade Dave’s site to vote and caught his list of other sites. If you haven’t been to A Second Breath, it may interest your readers in how the CA supporters are thinking.
suz
page 11517, the last hand-written sentence:
“Within the plastic bag and in the liquid w/in the bottle, a cotton-like or paper material is present.”
Strangely, I cannot find any other mention of this material in the reports - or I am strange and completely missed it.
I made an (un)educated guess that this material was synthetic because it said cotton-like and paper-like, and it wasn’t described as being disintegrated like paper.
WAIT a minute. Hold the phone.
It may be a small pre-packaged (folded to about 1.5 inches square) ANTISEPTIC ALCOHOL WIPE/PAD which I know home-care nurses have for IV use. Maybe the “syringe kit” contained something similiar to swab clean the area of injection or the needle itself. I’d definitely describe these little wipes as cotton/paper-like and it retains itself in liquid. The wipe or pad I am looking at is saturated with 70% v/v isopropyl Alcohol, USP.
But because of the motor oil findings, I “interpreted” the “material” may have been the source of the motor oil compounds found in the liquid, and that the material was actually a special “paper towel” used for oil changes.
page 11544 lists the motor oil compounds
I am now leaning to a prepared wipe for that material.
“Within the plastic bag and in the liquid w/in the bottle, a cotton-like or paper material is present.”
correction: should be “paper-like” material, not “paper” material
What is the link to this evidence in the latest document release? “weed eater fabric found at the scene”?
#441
· Comment by JJ — November 9, 2009 @ 1:22 pm
what is ; “weed eater” fabric found at the scene”, I have never been sure as to what evidence was found in the backyard…
re: the liquid in the brown bottle
Following the discovery at Suburban Drive, pesticides were taken from the A’s home by LE.
When I first heard that, it may ill to think of how these chemicals could be linked to little Caylee.
Ammonia, trimethylamine, sulphur-like smell, could heartbreakingly point to a pesticide.
What are the links to the CSI notes from OCSO where Agent Bloise found 4 areas with the weed eaters in the Anthony yard?
What is the link for the FBI contact logs that says OCSO has one of the weed eaters from the Anthony yard?
http://blinkoncrime.com/category/caylee-anthony-case/keith-williams/
In the CSI notes from OCSO, initial responders, we note 4 different areas where Agent Bloise marks 4 areas; 3 are under wood chips and the 4th is under the platform of 16×16 pavers from the July yardscaping.
Buried within the FBI contact logs from the latest discovery, we learn that OCSO has at least one of those, if not all, in evidence. Where were they sent and what are the results? Could they be in the company of the much anticipated soil samples taken from the Anthony yard?
The examination and testing of soil samples from the trunk have also not been disclosed to date.
Thank you in advance!
Blink.. you were a scared monkey?? Had no idea.. Have only been there a couple times via link here. I find it hard to follow posts there (sign of age?) I thought I saw or heard somewhere that Cindy was posting there? I know she and DomiDom mentioned “Blink” via email in doc dump… Do you guys think she has posted here before (or still does)?
?
Well, after all is said and done, I still believe that Casey is going down for the murder of her daughter. The whole thing for me goes back to the initial investigation, 31 days without admitting to anyone her daughter was missing, the stench in the trunk, the dogs hitting on the trunk, ect, ect, ..the icing on the cake has been all the doc dumps. She is guilty..always has been. I am so tired of all the intense discussion about her case..that feeds the defense ..she did the deed..the rest is just the icing on the cake.
last post was regarding #549,
Anthony’s are awefully quiet…so is Bozo.
Hi Blink (and Blinksters!),
I’m a long-time reader, but this is my first post. I just have something to say about the duct-tape. There’s been a lot of theories about why Casey put duct-tape over Caylee’s mouth, and when the news first came out about it, I had a theory of my own. Now in light of the entymology report, I’d bet my eye-teeth on my theory (and if this has already been discussed, my apologies).
I believe that the tape was the last motherly act, however twisted, that Casey provided Caylee. As a mother myself, I know I hate it when my child gets as much as a mosquito bite. So, what if the tape was to serve as a barrier against the flies?
Once the flies started infesting the corpse (sorry for the indelicate image), perhaps Casey felt the need to “protect” her child from them. That would explain WHY the tape was so thorough, and tight, and would also seem to explain the heart sticker too.
I’m thinking that maybe once the maggots began to appear, she wiped them away with the napkin, crumpling it in disgust and in an effort to squish them, and then covered ALL openings with the tape - eyes and ears too. Then the heart shaped sticker - once again reinforcing the idea that the tape was a loving act.
Just my opinion.. and I’m looking forward to read everyone’s thoughts on it. Thanks!
TechMom - I can really see where you’re going with this. We always want to make everything ‘better’ when our kids are hurt, when they mess up or they need cover. I don’t know if Casey felt this way - given the fact that I believe Caylee was in this position to begin with because of her own mom - but I can see in a sick and twisted way she might have been trying to make everything ‘ok’.
TechMom, wouldn’t the skin be damp/wet/decomposed by the time the flies arrived? The duct tape would have to be applied to dry skin in order to stick.
Bees Knees - my theory is that she wiped the baby’s face with the napkin(s) found in the trunk - effectively removing any maggots that have started to accumulate, as well as drying the skin surface well enough for duct-tape to stick. One of duct-tape’s well known qualities is it’s ability to stick - even to damp objects - especially when stuck back onto itself. So with that in mind, and knowing the long length of the tape pieces - the ends may well have overlapped when initially put on. Another reason for the length - to make sure the ears were protected too.
Also - thanks! to both lily and Bees for entertaining my theory and replying. After following the case for so long and having only my husband’s uninformed “pity” attention to bounce ideas off of (”yes, dear.. interesting… zzzzzzzz” lol), this is a great change! =)
Local Orlando news is reporting that the bottle and chloroform is a no go for a link to the crime. Says the chloroform levels are less than what is in drinking water. Just a co-incidence that they were 6 inches away from her skull.
TechMom,
Welcome, glad you posted.
Your theory is a good one. I can see it being very plausible except putting duct tape on your loved one is not a loving act. Also, she never treated Caylee’s death with reverence. Comparing the smell in the trunk to a squirrel “plastered” to the hood of her car.
If Casey couldn’t stand Caylee being feasted upon then she could have done the loving thing for her daughter and confessed giving her a proper burial.
Instead Caylee was placed in trash bags and thrown out into a dumpsite where animals would take her apart. IMO not something a loving mother would do.
Also, remember that poor little Caylee wasn’t given her beloved momma doll or her little teddy bear. I would think as a mother you would want your baby to have her most cherished friends with her.
Thank you for bringing this theory here. No one really knows the why of Casey, your theory IMO is just as plausible as Blink’s O theory or as any given by me or anyone- Keep posting I would love to read some more of your opinions. This one will certainly keep me awake pondering if you could be right.
#598 wpgmouse,
Remember in Cindy’s deposition that was released just recently she was asked if she ever used ammonia or ammonia mixed with water as a cleaning solution. She stated she had NEVER used this at all ever.
TechMom, having a hard time buying that ‘protecting Caylee’ theory. You think tape would ’stick’? And besides, it’s not going to protect anything. If the tape did not stick, the mandible would not have been still attached. I don’t know that you can ‘wipe maggots’ off– I remember a vet removing maggots from a wound on a horse, it took tweezers and pulling to get them detached. Not simple wiping. And if you could wipe them away, what good would it do? You would be wiping– naw, I’m not going there. Just seems way too off for anyone who cares, even farther off for someone who has no feeling, and is trying to ‘protect’.
No, not unless someone is mentally ill, seriously. To do this, there would have to be debagging at some point. And that itself is sealing the shroud, the blanket, and two wraps of plastic, and then the carrying laundry bag.
No, the body was tossed like trash. No protection from anything. Sorry. Doesn’t fit for me.
Smoking gun or not– Bill Schaeffer says yes, this report says no:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/21576734/detail.html
quote:
“HLN cable news personality Nancy Grace stated on her show the syringe was “loaded” with chloroform, and legal analysts have called the chloroform discovery a “smoking gun” or otherwise damaging to the defense.
But a closer look the FBI laboratory test results on the liquid reveals the level of chloroform in the liquid constitutes only about 12 parts per billion. By comparison, drinking water can contain up to 80 parts per billion of chloroform and its chemical cousins and still pass the Environmental Protection Agency standards for chlorinated drinking water.
Neither prosecutors nor defense attorneys would comment on the findings, but Local 6 took them to an independent chemist who said the presence of chloroform at that level was not significant.
The FBI chemist who did the tests did not even mention chloroform in his final report, turned over to investigators in July 2009 – two months after he started testing the substance.”
Unquote
wpgmouse, thank you re: the cotton-like material with the syringe. i think you guys are right, that it is an alcohol wipe.
Here’s how I interpret those sideways pages like 11544. They run the gas chromatography or whatever the test is on the unknown substance, and up pops a result for it—those neat curves or seismograph looking shapes that show something or other about the composition of the substance. The very top line depicts the unknown compound. The next five items, which have their own wavy lines that look pretty similar to those of the unknown compound, are listed below in descending order based on how closely they resemble the unknown compound. That’s the pictorial form. Listed below the pics is the same list of items in descending order of ‘matchiness’, so for instance on 11544, the profile of the mystery compound most closely resembles Primol Eko 100k (83.36 match), and also resembles (but less so) rapeseed oil and Primol Eko 36p (81.69 and 81.36 matches, respectively).
So in this case, the substance is definitely consistent with being some kind of oil, but it’s not really clear what kind.
Scroll to the right side of that page and you will see that the list of known compounds that more or less match the mystery compound are from a reference library, in this case “Lubricants and Oils by ATR.”
I think KC tried to burn the body and also the car to get rid of the evidence. Anyone think of that ? With all the gas can rigamaroe what was all that about? It didn’t happened because she got flagged by Geo. with the trunk of the car thing, and then she got freaked and left it at Amscot> JMOP i read she tried to burn her at J. B. Park but it never happened successfully. So why not the car, another blundering mess. So she left it at the Amscot?
PS, I don’t know if I’m interpreting it correctly, but that’s my best guess at what those particular pages mean. i could totally be wrong…
What else is going on– we haven’t got enough info yet, maybe that’s part of the plan, to keep the defense guessing, unless their client will reveal what she knows to them and will she continue to play dumb?
Changing the subject, isn’t it absolutely necessary for the timeline to begin on a day where Caylee and Casey are seen leaving the house, Caylee alive and in a different set of clothes than her mother had her in? And for the last day not to be the evening of the 15th, when it would make less sense for Casey to leave with the child to give her to a sitter and not come home on a Sunday (unlikely starting work late Sunday evening as excuse).
Different clothing means someone else could have provided those clothes to fit in with Casey’s story of the nanny, and if George was not telling what he knew from what he actually SAW that Monday, he clued in very early, to make sure he covered for Casey– how did he know to do this so early on?
Momof3 - Thanks for the warm welcome and the great feedback. You articulated some of my own nagging thoughts that conflict with my theory, especially about not leaving “mamma” with Caylee. I can’t fathom any reason for that except maybe the doll could be too easily be tied to Caylee, and without it, identification might not be as possible.
And you are right, the act of applying duct-tape isn’t a “loving” act… from a mentally sound point of view. But it still fits IMO as an act of motherly protection. For this theory to have any ring of truth in it for myself, I put it in this rather morbid hypothetical: If I were in some sort of position\place where (Higher Powers forbid!) I had a loved one, especially a child, who had passed and I had no means to bury.. and all I had was a roll of duct-tape to protect her remains (especially the face)from the invasive insects.. Would I do the same? Could I? Maybe. Or maybe I’m just humanizing someone who lacks /has lost all humanity.. I dunno! But it’s definitely something to think about. ; )
Momof3
So good that you recalled that.
Yes, I distinctly remember that exchange.
Could be she was not being truthful, and ammonia was used in the car clean-up or the clean-up/masking of something else.
Or she was being truthful, and the State was eliminating that “home bottle of ammonia” source in order to support the ammonia was actually a compound detected in a product, like a pesticide for example. Like I said earlier, it made me ill back in December when LE retrieved a spray tank of pesticide from the A’s home.
Sorry, but I am about to get a bit graphic here.
Is this what actually caused the death of Caylee, or was it used if her little body was kept somewhere, like in the backyard. If she was there, even for a short period of time, how could that go undetected by the A’s pets or a visible gathering of attracted insects. How could CA take the chance her parents might be in the yard and discover little Caylee? The use of a pesticide would have probably masked the fact.
What do you think, Momof3?
It’s hard for me to believe that the defense team or the A’s will not come out and speak about the recent doc dump. In the past, they’ve always had something to say … either directly related to the dump or related to something totally different in an effort to get the public’s mind off of what they’re reading. I’ll be shocked if we don’t’ hear from somebody soon. They all love being on camera too much to stay quiet. Unless they’re still trying to figure out the exact wording to use when questioned about their tattoos. You know that Jim Lichtentstein has been busy with their media speaker training! Gotta get those talking points down pat!
Just read something about Casey’s so-called female problems back when she was pregnant. It’s really hard for me to get my head around the pathology of a liar. I believe that Cindy and Casey were so good at it and believed in their ability to do it well, they totally went off the charts with it. For example, Cindy looking at her brother straight in his eyes and telling him that Casey was not pregnant and that she had female problems. Cindy knew that even if he questioned it, she would be able to lie so well that the whole matter would be dropped — which it was. Casey, too, had the same way of lying. She lied her face off to her friends. They all knew she was lying. They discussed it behind her back. But no one ever confronted her. So, she was able to continue doing it unchecked for who knows how long! She also thought she could do it with law enforcement. Big oops! Imagine, the nerve of them to question her honesty! hehehe
Last Post: IGNORE
I would like to add a disclaimer that I was getting myself confused regarding the two separate bottles with liquid, please ignore my last post in re: choline. It’s tough to do adequate research whilst working on something else simultaneously. Apologies. I think that, fortunately, it was likely ignored anyway, lol.
Chloroform air samples:
This is from the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, and is in relationship to the ‘carpet air sample’ minus the trunk liner which had been removed. It seems that although the area counts were higher than the control carpet in amounts of chloroform, the amount of chloroform is lower than expected for adult decompositional events. However, we know that it was a child vs an adult and that not all components of the trunk were tested at this point. A control sample with a blanket of a 3 year old child who had decomposed in a trunk for apprx 3 months on said blanket, yielded no detection of chloroform.
Pg 5/19801995PDF : Chloroform
“A quantitation of chloroform was attempted, but the chloroform seen the Florida carpet sample was much greater than the purchased standard. Increasing the standard concentration by a larger injection volume would have required too much menthanol and would have overwhelmed the signal. Looking at the integrated areas under the peaks, the control carpet had approximately 10,270 area counts and the Florida trunk sample had approximately 386, 200, 000 area counts. 10mg of injected standard yielded an area count of approximately 8, 240, 000 indicating that the Florida trunk sample had an amount of chloroform present which was in the low parts per million range. Typical concentrations seen during human decompositional events of adults yields amounts in the low parts per trillion range………..
PG 6
TSTs collected from the Florida trunk were analyzed even though the trunk liner had been removed and the odor would not have been representative of what was originally present at the time of discovery. Even with the liner removed, sulfur containing compounds carbon disulfide and dimethyl disulfide, as well as carbon tetrachloride and chloroform , were still detectable in trace amounts…….”
Would someone please help me with a link to the trunk liner, preferably wftv? If it is already up, I’m sorry.
O yes, memories of the day I spent researching MSDS sheets, creating my - since cant stand to look at - spreadsheet of the extraneous findings produced by “the sniffer.” Admittedly, I do not have the periodic table committed to memory any longer, I struggle through those areas of research so I feel your pain.
Just a general note to all on here who like WSH are whipping through complicated evidence discussions.
B
PLEASE HELP me with the LINKS to comments posted here.
I think it is a BIG deal if weed eater fabric was found at both the remains site and at the Anthony home. I first read about that here on Blink’s site.
WHERE was this information found???
I cannot find the documents????
What are the links to the CSI notes from OCSO where Agent Bloise found 4 areas with the weed eaters in the Anthony yard? (in previous document release)
What is the link for the FBI contact logs that says OCSO has one of the weed eaters from the Anthony yard? (in previous document release)
What is the link to this evidence in the latest document release? “weed eater fabric found at the scene”? #441 · Comment by JJ
Im sure I saw someone link to this in response yesterday-
B
PLEASE tell me where I can find the info about “weed eaters” in this recent document release on Nov. 6th, and where I can find the info in previous doc releases which Blink mentions.
#479 Comment by wpgmouse (re: weed eaters)
WPG is correct. One similar to many that were observed and subsequently put into evidence, from the Anthony home, was found with Caylee.
B
****Correction, Can someone help me with a PDF on the trunk liner, etc from cfnews 13? They are smaller.
Blink, are the Blinkettes feeling any better? Our thoughts are with you and yours.
Gavi- they are, thanks so much. Bronchitis, not h1n1. Phew
B
“32 Comment by cher — November 6, 2009 @ 12:27 pm
Casey Anthony case: syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform
FBI lab tests detected the dange