David Hartley Gunned Down On Jet Ski In Mexico : Tiffany Young-Hartley Facing Scrutiny
According to his wife, Tiffany Young-Hartley, who called 911, David Hartley, 30, was gunned down by Mexican pirates while the couple ventured across the Falcon Resovior lakes US border to take pictures of the “Mexican Atlantis” or Old Guerreo.
Hartley says her husband was shot in the head and as a result “flew” off his jet ski while the couple was returning from the landmark on the Mexican side of the lake, after taking pictures. She goes on to say she became aware of 3 different boats chasing down the couple only after she saw bullets hitting the water next to her. As she turned around to see where they were coming from, she claims she witnessed her husbands murder.
David was driving a new Sea Doo RXT ski that can climb from 0–30MPH in 1.7 seconds and is capable of top-end speeds of over 60 MPH. Blinkoncrime.com has not been able to confirm which model Ms. Hartley was driving. The couple had been on at least one earlier jet ski jaunt while still in Mexico, but was cut short due to a mishap with David’s craft on June 20th.
According to his wife, David was face-down in the water, wearing a life vest, after he was shot.
Despite the horror of what she had just witnessed and astonishingly avoiding injury to her or her watercraft, she circled back around, jumped off her jet ski, and turned her 250 lb. husband upright to observe the gunshot wound to his forehead. You read that correctly, according to Tiffany Hartley, while being chased from behind, David was shot from the front. Hartley maintains this is when she attempted to load him onto her jet ski, and also when two of the three boats were now positioned in front of her.
One of the alleged pirate boats from the front approached her within 10 ft. While she stared down the barrell of his gun, she was holding onto her husband with one hand, her ski with the other asking not to be shot. Apparently through some sort of Mexican telepathy or nautical sign language, the men who just ambushed the couple and murdered her husband in cold blood, made a decision to let her go and retreated IN FRONT OF HER.
Hartley claims she cannot identify any of the men, that they never said a word to her nor could she hear anything they may have said to each other, but believes the motive for the attack to be robbery or to kidnap her. It is not clear how Tiffany arrived at this conclusion as they never made an attempt to stop them or ask them for their money, she was off her $13,000 Sea doo they could have easily taken, and they let her go.
It was at this time that Hartley finally did hear something. She says she heard the voice of God tell her to leave David, save herself and get to safety. However, his instruction must have been non-specific because she proceeded to mount her ski in deep water, start it back up, and drive directly toward and then past the very band of gun weilding murderous cartel who minutes ago gunned down her highschool sweetheart and spouse of 8 years. (Editors note: I cannot imagine the nerve it takes to again have your back to the same crew who, unprovoked, sprayed the lake with bullets behind you while you were fleeing for your life).
While Tiffany admits the couple was aware of recent pirate activity in the area they learned about while David researched the location, she claims they had not heard of anymore incidents on Falcon Lake, which borders both Texas and Mexico, “in a while.”
The Hartley’s, who had recently been on a few tropical vacations, were in the process of relocating to Colorado next week from Reynosa, Mexico and McAllen Texas, where they had lived for only a few months, following David’s transfer request to Calfrac well services.
According to recent Facebook postings, although the couple could not agree on furniture tastes, they recently purchased a house full of it just after a luxury cruise and visit to a seminar for those experiencing financial difficulty.
I would love to be able to do no analysis and regergetate this story as reported by main stream media whereby not one reporter asks the obvious question:
After several known incidents of piracy in that location over the last months, why would the “pirates” suddenly go on a murderous rampage in lieu of attempting to rob a couple on jet skis that could outrun them on sight?
Not gonna happen. I have heard umpteen versions of Ms. Hartley’s version of events leading to the random execution of her husband.
None pass the smell test. However, just today, Zapata County Sheriff “Sigi” Gonzalez, Jr says his investigation, now aided by a witness who is a long standing member of the Zapata community, exonerates Mrs. Hartley of any wrongdoing.
Gonzalez completely rules out foul play on the part of Mrs. Hartley.
“A local witness saw Tiffany Hartley escaping on her jet-ski to the Texas side of the lake,” he said. “She came in at high speed and was being pursued by armed men in a Mexican fishing boat that that the witness clearly observed.”
Gonzalez said the witness was a long-standing member of the Zapata community who was well known to him and regarded as highly credible.
“The testimony of this witness dispels any idea Mrs. Hartley was involved in any wrongdoing regarding the murder of her husband,” he said firmly. “She called in a 911 phone call to our office at around 2:20 p.m. on the day of the incident, immediately after she got to shore, and her statements to my office confirm what the local witness observed.”
Unfortunately, the witness account does not match Tiffany Hartley’s own version of events. At no time has she ever said that she was again chased by the “pirates”, in fact, she claims she left them behind after driving “through” them.
Hartley references recent pirate activity, which is almost verbatim what she says happened to her and David, with the exception of the actual piracy:
On April 30, five people in two different boats were fishing on Falcon Lake and went to the Old Guerrero area, where they were taking photos of the old church. While they were there, a boat with four heavily tattooed men approached the two boats quickly. The men identified themselves as “Federales,” but they were not wearing uniforms. The men boarded the boats, demanded cash and asked “where are the drugs?” The fishermen told the men that they had no drugs and were just fishing and taking photos. They ended up giving the men $200 cash and left the area. The pirates followed the two boats, but the U.S. boats were able to outrun them and the men stopped following once the two boats entered U.S. waters.
In every recorded incident since April, the heavily tattoed pirates posing as “Federales” without uniforms, came upon anchored fishing boats, boarded them, robbed the fisherman at gunpoint of any personal cash, searched for drugs left without any violence. In the Hartley family interview on the Today show, Tiffany states that after David was hit, she circled around, jumped off her jetski, swam over to her husband and because he was “face down in the water” she had to turn him over where she discovered he was shot in the head.
It would seem I am not alone in my quagmire. Mexican Investigators, who hold jurisdiction have already begun to question Ms. Hartley’s story.
Marco Antonio Guerrero Carrizales, the district attorney for the Miguel Aleman Province adjoining Falcon Lake on the Mexican side, has questioned whether Tiffany Hartley was involved in foul play.
Early this morning, Sheriff Sigi Gonzalez announced the Mexican Authorities will be searching the area where David Hartley was murdered, and have committed to “not leaving” until they find him. Tiffany Hartley, accompanied by her parents, but without David’s, filed a missing person report at the Mexican Consulate last night as a matter of procedure to “get the ball rolling”.
Check back to blinkoncrime.com for updates
Madeline Tanner, contributing editor blinkoncrime.com
Images by Klaasend
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Forgot to post…if TH’s friend Care is indeed a true post..or telling the truth …how does the cartel contact TH? How often…past & present?!?! Is this the first hint that TH will soon file an insurance claim?
When I try to fairly weigh both sides of this story, I too (like other blinkers) can’t understand her lack of grief (on TV) after losing the “love of her life.” Maybe Madilu has a point above about TH being loney/bored in marriage…and now she is getting so much attention and enjoys it?
crimesolver says:
October 17, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Forgot to post…if TH’s friend Care is indeed a true post..or telling the truth …how does the cartel contact TH? How often…past & present?!?! Is this the first hint that TH will soon file an insurance claim? [snip]
Also, the love of my life, (lol) is getting irritated with me because I haven’t touched my “honey-do” list, since I started following this story. Hoping the FBI or US Le releases info this week!
——————————————————————–
Her friend in on it, or it is the sis? A bunch of bunk.
B. said she wouldn’t be able to play dead in a B western.
I agree. They are going to get caught, do your “honeylist”:)
Listen to PH later.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/peter-hyatt (6:00 pm est, today)
Last week, PH opinion was: either she shot him, BF or work related.
@Madilu and Graceinthehills
I just found this website as well which speaks to the searches done in Mexico but once again, it does not say whether there were air searches involved or not.
Snip: “An employee at the Tamaulipas State Police office in Miguel Alemán said via telephone that officers there were on the lake, assisting the local district attorney, Marco Antonio Guerrero Carrizales, in their latest search.
Tamaulipas state authorities said they had searched Saturday in and around Old Guerrero for any sign of the alleged pirate attack, but found no signs of the attack. Investigators doubted whether any incident even happened.
The Mexican Ministry of Foreign Affairs rebuked that notion on Wednesday, issuing a statement that said federal, state and local authorities have been working to find Hartley’s body since learning of the alleged incident last week.”
I’m not sure what info was rebuked regarding the search but there is reference at the end to searches starting since they learned of the incident.
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/reservoir-43383-falcon-resumes.html
Madilu says:
October 17, 2010 at 2:02 pm
I have searched for timeline info and kept track of some stuff. The best I have found is conflicting and does NOT mention search start time, but when it was called off:
2:45pm -“Authorities said the shooting happened about 2:45 p.m.” http://www.kens5.com/news/national/104123103.html
Xx:xxpm TYH ride back to shore ~10 minutes?
Xx:xxpm ? Exact location/TIME of the point she returned to shore GS
2:30pm 911 call time: http://www.themonitor.com/articles/antonio-43258-san-falcon.html
(But then “David” on http://seamusoriley.blogspot.com/2010/10/does-tiffany-hartley-know-shooter.html says the call came in at 2:20pm ????)
Xx:xxpm Meet with Sheriff –where?
Xx:xxpm Search begins
9:00pm –Search called off http://www.themonitor.com/articles/-43245–.html
———————————————————————-
Thank-you for posting, Madilu.Ozonetourist (LE) poster on WS, he said the timeline doesn’t add up,too.
A road behind the church, leads back to where they previously lived, in Mexico, I read that on WS.
Someone could have popped, poor, David, and escaped on the road.
Accomplice, perhaps, this is making everyone so disconnected, we think
of Tiff as a SIL or won’t get away with “her story”.
10/08/10
http://www.valleycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=523516
Per Mexico searches, the link above reports a Mx battle…where a rocket launcher was consvicated along with other items. Another article I read (can’t remember which one) had indicated that the MEX LE were stopping their chopper surveying because of the danger of being shot down by rocket launchers.
Forgive me if I sound sketchy…typing rapidly and multitasking other things)
47.S.H. says:
October 17, 2010 at 1:11 pm
http://falconlakeguide.com/blog/?m=201009
Sorry, this is the link to Sept. 22, 2010 photo of people fishing
on a boat, in front of the Church. About half-way down the page
is the photo, above the dog photo.
**************************
I read that link you posted. I see this fisherman remarked on how he does not feel Falcon is a danger. He has a rather opposing view to all else we have heard. Interesting.
TH wrote: With the self-walking tour, I would be all over the Church-School grounds, David would, too. Thanks, again, for that link for the walking tour,no idea that there was back to the Church! LOL.
******************************************************************
Have you found the church & town ruins on google maps yet? We enjoyed comparing the UT document/guide against the imagery on google maps. (had to keep switching between satellite view & map view to find it while zooming in) Or see link below, but view box is too small for me, pics included though.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/41373426
This link is good too, so many links to explore on each page. There is a good pic of “land behind church” on Landscape and Aerial Views link.
http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Past/Book/Part5/part5.html#intro5
@ riverpearl says:
October 16, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Okay Blink, Tiffany gives a “2nd statement” ?
… and now “pirates shot her husband in the NECK” -and- she “barely escaped when they shot @ her when she tried to retrieve him” ?
http://www.kgw.com/news/world/105111304.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Didn’t know they shot at her also I thought she originally said they just pointed the gun at her & she stared down the barrel of the gun & she couldn’t explain why they didn’t shoot her too..
I’ts official. The story has completely changed. Shot in the NECK, not the head. And they wonder why we question everything about this incident.
Whatever did happen, my guess is there was a seriously LONG delay in the time of the incident and the time of that 911 call, possibly hours. The real evidence had to be gotten rid of for whatever reason.
If I was a journalist I would be screaming foul right about now. They have completely changed the story and now the media just incorporates the change as if its no big deal?
What if this happened on Lake Michigan??? Remove illegals and drugs from the picture completely. You think the media would still be going along with this?? They would demand a full investigation and demand to know why the story had changed, why no evidence of a crime could be found, and call immediately for a polygraph of the surviving spouse.
I am a journalist.
I was the first to scream foul. To the credit of my editors that take some of the hits with me, it was unanimous. Nothing is ever unanimous in this war room, you have no idea.
I can be wrong.
I am not.
We now have a change in testimony of a mortal wound. Hello People.
B
@Southernmom,
No disrespect intended but let’s get real. This guy was no CEO, he was a rank and file rig grunt. They work their asses of in dangerous conditions, and they don’t get compensated well for it, just like our military doesn’t and our law enforcement doesn’t. Who makes the real bucks?? Military contractors, and oil companies, that’s who.
And everything they were BUYING was from the American side not the Mexico side. The furniture, the jetskis, the cruises, if I am wrong somebody shout out. Based on what we know of the husband’s employment, the fact the wife did not have any visible means of income, these two were living high. Add up all those vacations, toys, and goodies. They were either getting $$ from an unknown source or they were up to their ears in debt.
Read what the first poster on this blog has to say about the pay. He worked for Calfrac at the time (2008).
http://www.reality-check.ca/archive/index.php/t-3956-p-11.html
Madilu says:
October 15, 2010 at 3:32 pm
@ crimesolver says:
October 15, 2010 at 11:56 am
5. I don’t know if they ‘just bought a new ski’ but I did swear I heard in the DPS stop footage (when they were stopped in Rio Grande City) David saying that they bought the trailer in May, and had bought the jet skis ‘last year.’
******
Yes, it is mentioned 2x by DH. At about 2:10 and about 4:00 or so, he indicates he bought the trailer in May with a ski, and the other (ski) about a year ago. The annoying ‘extra’ sounds you hear in your right ear really impedes the exchange. But I could swear he says something about how something, ‘those 2 arent in his name.’ Basically I dont think he was particularly legal with much on the trailer. While relistening to this, on the utube page, I saw a short video. On it from channel 5, they state the cops should have given him a ticket, but they saw 2 trucks drive by with marajuana on them. ( the hay looking bundles at the end?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSiC7qq1FMo
“Bottom line is, contrary to what she said in this audio interview, he had been in fact been to Monterrey -obviously without her. Why would she make that statement? “We heard it was beautiful.” As if he never went there… Bizarro!”
***********************
I would have to give the benefit of the doubt here for a change — Maybe when DH travels for work they are so busy on a specific project that they really don’t get to explore the city at all. Sometimes when I travel for work all I really see of a new city is the inside of a hotel conference room. Then in the evening, we venture out to dinner, but it could be dark by then and you really don’t feel like you’ve seen the city, or understand the flavor of it.
Southern Mom said: As far as the financial situation goes…I think they were in a good position. Most people who work in foreign countries are very well compensated for doing so. If while they were living in Mexico, all their expenses were paid (which is not uncommon) and DH is pulling in a low 6 figure salary (also not uncommon)…it certainly justifies the lifestyle they were leading. Cost of living in Mexico is pennies compared to US…I don’t think any of this was regarding financial troubles they were having…I don’t think they were having them at all, with exception to wondering if DH could be laid off at some point. I think the company moving them back to Colorado indicates he was not likely to be laid off in the near future.
***************************
I agree that their lifestyle was not excessive while living in Reynosa, as all their expenses would have been covered. HOWEVER, once they were forced to move to McAllen, that all ended, and then Pemex started shutting down operations, so it is NOT perfectly clear whether DH was really employed or not, and how long he was off the payroll. My opinion only.
The move to McAllen all happened quite abruptly and could have caught them off guard if they had financed any of their toys and then suddenly had to start paying rent/utilities, on top of toy payment. Pemex was having financial problems (remember $700 million worth of oil was stolen) and this definately could have trickled down to CF and therefore affected DH. My opinion only.
Lee wrote:
“I’m probably going to be trounced by saying this but…..it seems like a lot of you would be disappointed if it turns out that TH is telling the truth.”
I will be disappointed. I admit it. I can’t speak for anyone else but I would rather this man’s fate have come from his poor taste in women or because of his own criminal activity than to know he was just a random innocent person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The latter is far more frightening to me.
I got the full version of the Stratfor analysis sent to my email. Among other statements they make there is this-
————————–
“Tiffany Hartley told investigators that David Hartley was struck twice in the head and that she tried to recover her husband’s body but was forced to flee in fear for her own life.”
Struck twice? Did she ever say how many times he was struck in all the other interviews?
@lee says:
October 17, 2010 at 12:43 pm
I wanted to make sure to respond to you – no trouncing…promise:-) You bring up a valid question, and I have thought about it today…I mean really thought about whether or not I would be, “disappointed” if she were telling the truth. Your question was indeed thought provoking.
My answer is that I would be, “surprised” if that what she has blitzed all over the media is entirely truthful. For me, it is not a question of needing to be, “right.” It is the intrigue of WHY she would deceive on any point in relation to the alleged murder of her husband.
There are valid reasons as to why many are questioning the validity of her account of events. I don’t need to list them. There is a LOT that does NOT make sense in this, “story.”
I hear about senseless murders every day where I live as well -however, there are a number of things from early on that made me, “lift an eyebrow,” and that are particularly interesting. Even before Blink wrote this article, I was shaking my head thinking that something was hinky, nd it had nothing to do with the realities along the border. It was all about the girl, and the big picture too, and the immediate switch to political agendas and so forth. And the more I focused on it, the more intrigued I became -and wanting to KNOW the truth.
I have never said or thought that there was a big, “conspiracy.” I have always leaned and aired on the side of simplicity -whether that is simplicity in terms of fake death for financial gain, Tiff ‘ending’ her marriage, cartel killings, etc. I do not think that anything was a conspiracy. I do know two things: That the violence and corruption in that area are very destructive and very real, and that TYH is not being truthful about what happened that day.
So yeah, I will be ‘surprised’ if it turns out that what she has reported to every major MSM is true, but I will disappointed if she has taken advantage of this for self gain.
On another note, what you write about hour uncle’s clients, scary. And at times I actually worry for Tiffany’s safety. I will grant her this -she is indeed brave -if the alleged story happened to me, and I was facing big bad drug/arms cartels, then the last thing I would do would be to plaster myself all over the media. I would move to Nebraska and work at 7-11 under a false name, or something like that. Thanks for your post.
@ Mermaid14 says:
October 17, 2010 at 4:49 pm
I’ts official. The story has completely changed. Shot in the NECK, not the head. And they wonder why we question everything about this incident.
Whatever did happen, my guess is there was a seriously LONG delay in the time of the incident and the time of that 911 call, possibly hours. The real evidence had to be gotten rid of for whatever reason.
If I was a journalist I would be screaming foul right about now. They have completely changed the story and now the media just incorporates the change as if its no big deal?
What if this happened on Lake Michigan??? Remove illegals and drugs from the picture completely. You think the media would still be going along with this?? They would demand a full investigation and demand to know why the story had changed, why no evidence of a crime could be found, and call immediately for a polygraph of the surviving spouse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This afternoon I sent an email to the AP on that article that appeared on the 2 news sites.. I asked them if this new account of DH’s accident now being reported from TH was accurately written up on these news sites since it differed from the original story TH told & was originally reported.. I also asked them if it was possible that these 2 news sites got the information wrong & that no one proofed it or fact checked it prior to printing.. Still waiting for some type of a response..
Blink says in part:
We now have a change in testimony of a mortal wound. Hello People.
B
****************
I am with you on this. I wonder what provoked her to change her story? Could it have been a challenge to her story that he flew forward or what? There has to be a reason. Hmmm.
I had gathered some ‘notes’ on some folks said to be employed at Calfrac. They are friends of DH’s on fb. I dont know if you can post, but I thought it interesting to see the type of work they did, I really had no idea. The recent discussion of lack of work and such caused me to recall this.
Coworker Ivan Gallegos
~snip~
Wade Strong: Those wellheads look like cartel crosses Ivan lol
October 13 at 8:39pm
Ivan Gallegos: how are you friend there is work to go to work to canada
October 13 at 10:18pm
Strong: Ya Canada busy again. But I talked to Adrian maybe time for me to come back to Mexico to work?? To bad about David
October 13 at 10:58pm
Ivan Gallegos: you know we are in mexico compadre here for what you need
Thursday at 8:48pm
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1551215454194&set=a.1551214214163.82029.1049354124
Hector Torres Gomez -Calfrac employee w/ photos
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=157110&id=719446917
( what’s up with that baby?)
Lee wrote:
“I’m probably going to be trounced by saying this but…..it seems like a lot of you would be disappointed if it turns out that TH is telling the truth.”
Lee- Hi- not trying to trounce you but, I don’t even understand how you could write that- Tiffany Hartley has already been caught in many lies- half-truths-inconsistencies- ect So she can’t have told the truth.
She can go back and clarify what she ‘meant’ to say- she can change her story over and over- each time supposedly getting closer to the truth- but IMO She has already been proven to be a liar.
So Lee, no, I won’t be disappointed, as it has already come to pass, but I’ll tell you what does disappoint me- the FACT that even though Tiffany Hartley has lied, changed her story- backtracked- told half truths- she is still being touted by the MSM and many politicians ect, as a poor young, widow, who may be a little ditzy..but otherwise harmless.
SHE LIED.
A human being is missing- possibly killed- and she lied-
Why? It could be that she was a coward and NEVER went back to check on her husband, but instead left him to die, never looking back, and the truth was too horrible for her to voice, so she made up the whole incident after we saw 3 boats… horrible, cowardly, but not as bad as the alternatives, it could be worse and she is lying to cover-up something criminal- I don’t know- but she IS lying
- Question is how does a mexican cartel mistake two whiter than white english speaking Ken and Barbie looking yuppies as rival drug runners?
Maybe they were aware of a couple of drug runners that looked a whole lot like Ken and Barbie- perhaps the authorities should put out an APB on anyone fitting that description- they may get lucky and bring down the BG’s
@ lee says:
October 17, 2010 at 2:51 pm
I do not expect the US or MExican LE to divulge their investigation prematurely at all. Not sure where you are coming from on that. I think that it is in the ‘absence’ for being, “in the know” that leads to so much more speculation -We only have media to rely on for information. And although I do not think that MSM “lies” -I do understand that when it comes to details, media can be sloppy. And yes -they make sensational, “headlines” -but if you are a blinker, then you see it’s the same ole, same ole news.
I was curious about your statement about media, “twisting things around.” -To be sure, the media in this case has been generous, forgiving, accepting and polite when talking about the, “alleged” incident. I have not seen media to report that “TYH ‘claims’ this or that happened…yet that she ‘said’ or ‘stated’ –But in the recent article about the private eye who thinks he knows what happened, they said several times in one short article that he, “claims” this and that -which clearly has a derogatory connotation -they have not done that to Tiff. Why would they do that? I don’t know. But sure, media of course slants things to how they want it to be received, imo.
I wish there was some obligation of LE, as public servants, to divulge what’s going on. Then perhaps, our discussion would be over and done with?
I understand ‘squirming’ with certain situations -and that is the curious thing -why then, put yourself on display, time after time. If it makes you squeamish or uncomfortable. Go to the police station, report it, then move on. Don’t go on every major network, local news station, JVM, NG and Geraldo for chrissakes…or?
And finally, just to be clear -I do not think that everyone who reports cartel violence is dismissed. There is something unique about this case. And if you want to show me other stories like this where people have been accused of saying ‘pirates/cartel’ did it, and it proved to be right, then fine.
But hey Lee, I understand where you are coming from. And appreciate the input.
Lee,
I have been reading BOC since the Kyron case…I have yet to see Blink throw anyone off for having an opinion. Because you are in the minority this does not mean that anyone is attacking your opinions…Blink does run a tight ship and I have seen her threaten to ban certain people but it has always been for blatantly inconsiderate/insulting or inane comments. Plus she always warns the person (at least three times!). If Blink thought your comment was inappropriate she would have stated so in her black bold signature.
I think that Mom 3.0 made a comment I’m not sure if it was to you. Without questioning a story the likes of Terri Horman, Casey Anthony, Patsy Ramsey…the whack job/little girl in a woodchipper story that I can’t bear to look at would get off because we didn’t question them.
With every new theory I have to question the one I previously gave belief to. Sometimes that is not easy. Then I ask myself why? Because I want to be right! But in real life I only cling to wanting to be right for a few minutes…sometimes a half hour. I do not want to be “right” EVER at the expense of knowing the truth…or at the expense of others lives being inconvenienced or worse…. I would not be able to look at myself in the mirror the next morning and my heart would be filled with shame.
5.Eloise says:
October 17, 2010 at 4:01 pm
47.S.H. says:
http://falconlakeguide.com/blog/?m=201009
Eloise says, “I read that link you posted. I see this fisherman remarked on how he does not feel Falcon is a danger. He has a rather opposing view to all else we have heard. Interesting.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Eloise: From what I have read, most people who have been making comments about the safety of the Lake are locals, including fishing guides and tackle and bait shop owners, who are VERY upset that the recent incidents on the Lake have affected their livelihood. It just makes sense that they are going to say, “Hey everbody, the water’s fine, come on down.”
Although the Hartley incident greatly increased fear and anxiety, ALL of the incidents that have occurred on Falcon this year and the escalation of cartel activity on both sides of the border have slowed fishing business at Falcon. You should read some of the comments under the article I linked below. My fishing buddies have not gone into the Mexico side of the lake for a very long time (in fact, most have always avoided that side), and now many die-hard Falcon bass fishing fans just don’t want to chance going there at all. It is what it is down there.
Read this and look at the tone of the comments that are posted at the end of this article:
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/zapata-43646-tainted-town.html
Now, whether the cartels/cartel wannabes have anything to do with the presumed Hartley murder, who the bleep knows? I think we need to stay tuned for further developments….
Ugh…will this ever be solved??
BTW, thanks Madilu for trying to construct a time line. You are one driven, caring lady!
@ S.H. says:
October 17, 2010 at 3:04 pm
I did not say that the time line does not add up. I find it to be moderately reasonable, in fact -depending on a few key data points, which we are not privvy to, and especially with sloppy media reports say the shooting happend at 2:45, and the 911 call came in at 2:30…??? Hello!!!. If nothing else, then it is very close. It could have worked, imo. I just want to know the timeline. So far, not convinced that it was IMpossible.
What did you mean by, “Accomplice, perhaps, this is making everyone so disconnected, we think of Tiff as a SIL or won’t get away with “her story”.
SIL???
Thanks!
@ Mermaid14 says:
October 17, 2010 at 4:49 pm
I’ts official. The story has completely changed. Shot in the NECK, not the head.
**************************
Hello Mermaid14? What’s your source for saying, “it’s official?” -other than sloppy repetition of associated press? If true, then that is HUGE! How many times did she point to her forehead? To me, if what you are saying is validated (no offense), that is severely incriminating (but not sure of what). I know that lying to Feds is a crime -so if this came out in the Feds interview, then she understands that…? idk. I will wait for further info.
And I agree with you about spending/expenses. She even said she did all her grocery shopping in McAllen. He was a lower management workhorse, for sure (And I mean no disrespect -that’s cool, in my book). -no upper management position does 3-4 jobs in one company. And yes, he was paid in USD -the furniture, the jetskis, vacations, the guns, etc… -everything (except evidently the jet ski trailer) was purchased in US, with USD -imo. I cannot speculate that they were in debt exactly, but they did attend DR seminar (Dave Ramsey preaches, “How to live debt free”)
For the record, I never said that a lot of Tiffany’s statements haven’t been “Hinky”. Some have for sure. I just know that if this had happened to me…..and it very well could have since I’ve been in that exact location, I don’t know how I would have reacted. I do know that when I’m scared shitless (pardon my French)….my body turns into jello. I also know that when I’ve lost my temper On a couple of occasions, I can literally see myself actually spitting all over everything and shaking. None of those things are things that I planned to do, I had zero control over it. So really, who’s to say how someone would react in a situation like being chased and shot at and how you would react to witnessing your husband’s murder? The truth still remains, this incident involves Mexico. EVERYTHING in Mexico is hinky. Certainly every level of government and law enforcement is also hinky. Things are rarely as they appear. If anyone wants to hang their hat on thinking they’ve figured out what exactly what went down or are even close, go ahead. I’ve already learned to wait. And it could be a very long wait. Often times when it comes to things that involve Mexico…you never find out what happened. This kind of reminds me of the George Smith case. The witch hunt that followed Jennifer Hagle.
And as I said in some previous post, we have law enforcement relatives in Zapata. I’m not willing to call them liars.
9.Mermaid14 says:
October 17, 2010 at 4:59 pm
@Southernmom,
No disrespect intended but let’s get real. This guy was no CEO, he was a rank and file rig grunt. They work their asses of in dangerous conditions, and they don’t get compensated well for it,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Mermaid, love your name, and appreciate your work on this “puzzle.” I don’t know about David Hartley’s contract, but these workers often do get compensated well. A friend of mine (who has no degree) does this type of international work and aside from the decent pay, most of his expenses are paid, and the cost of living is usually a lot lower in the international locations. So, it is *possible* they were living within their means.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-10-18-advisory18_ST_N.htm
Texas sheriff mistrusts Mexico’s border lake inquiry
By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
-snip-
The Texas sheriff leading the U.S. investigation into the fatal shooting of an American man said Mexican officials are trying to discourage the victim’s wife from pushing for a fuller inquiry.
“It’s wrong. It makes no sense,” Gonzalez said. He said he received an account of the meeting from U.S. officials who attended the session in McAllen, Texas.
-end snip-
So I’m wondering…was TH inverviewd by the US feds too? Who are the US officials as listed above?
Madilu says:
October 17, 2010 at 2:02 pm
I have searched for timeline info and kept track of some stuff. The best I have found is conflicting and does NOT mention search start time, but when it was called off:
————————————————————–
Madilu,
Does Mexico have a different “Time Zone” than Texas? Did David and
Tiffany, set their watches, to Mexico time, before, they left Texas?
I am thinking, perhaps, the shooting did occur according to her, except on Mexican time?
Everything about Mexico is NOT bad. Every level of government and law enforcement in Mexico is not corrupt. The problem is – when broad sweeping statements are made about an entire country – there is no chance for identifying issues and resolving them.
1) The border cities – especially Tijuana & Ciudad Juarez are dangerous. El Paso and San Diego are not.
2) The media sensationalizes and peddles fear, uncertainty and doubt because it sells
3) Mexico is a beautiful country, with beautiful people rich in history, culture, diversity. I love Mexico and have spent probably 1/2 of my vacations in my lifetime exploring the beaches, the mountains, the ancient ruins. It’s a very large country – many people don’t realize how diverse it is. From mountains with snow to beaches that are some of the most beautiful in the world. I get upset when an entire population of hard working, religiously devout (mostly Catholic), family-oriented, friendly people are lumped together as “bad”. When you do that – you limit your own horizons and experiences by not accepting others and understanding the fact that people everywhere are much like all of us – with the same dreams for their families and the same cares, wants and needs.
4) Think about the drug cycle for a minute – it requires a “buyer” with cash – a “distributor” with supply routes on BOTH sides of the border – a “manufacturer” of the product. Which country in this equation is the “buyer” with cash? It’s us in the good old USA. Your neighbors, your coworkers, your religious leaders, the teachers in schools, doctors, government officials, even members of your own family.
So before you condemn an entire country – and all of the innocent everyday ordinary folks that live there – think about what role we as a country contribute to the problems that they are dealing with.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-10-18-advisory18_ST_N.htm
Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo “Sigi” Gonzalez said Sunday that Tiffany Hartley was subjected to 12 hours of questioning by Mexican investigators Friday in an effort to “intimidate and discourage her from doing anything.”
Yet Tiffany on CNN this morning said she felt as though the interview was not an “interrogation” and that she felt fine with how it went and she stated once again that they just want David back and then everyone can go back to their lives as they were before the incident.
Interesting now that Sigi and Tiffany are not agreeing with how Mexico is handling the investigation. Sigi was not included in the interview – but other US authorities were.
http://www.krgv.com/news/local/story/TIffany-Hartley-Will-Meet-Mexican-Investigators/R8mgBTQGPEKX_YlYi33WyQ.cspx
Tiffany Hartley meeting with FBI and Mexican authorities again today.
Who thinks the FBI spends 12 plus hours with someone telling the truth?
B
27.GraceintheHills says:
October 17, 2010 at 11:00 pm
5.Eloise says:
October 17, 2010 at 4:01 pm
47.S.H. says:
http://falconlakeguide.com/blog/?m=201009
Eloise says, “I read that link you posted. I see this fisherman remarked on how he does not feel Falcon is a danger. He has a rather opposing view to all else we have heard. Interesting.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Eloise: From what I have read, most people who have been making comments about the safety of the Lake are locals, including fishing guides and tackle and bait shop owners, who are VERY upset that the recent incidents on the Lake have affected their livelihood. It just makes sense that they are going to say, “Hey everbody, the water’s fine, come on down.”
**************
Grace, thanks for the information. I fully understand the livelihood of these tour guides/ fishing trips are going to be affected. The post I referenced told me there are folks out on that water, stupid or not who have not been robbed and murdered despite being out there frequently, according to their story anyway. In particular, the one written on the 22nd of Sept caught my eye.
~snip~
Sept 22, 2010
I am still getting a few calls with people worried about the safety on Falcon. To tell you what I believe is that I do not think much of the reports way back in April about pirates. This story got way blown out of proportion. We all know how the media wants it to sound. I even did a interview with Fox News and it is crazy how they took out what they wanted in a hour interview on the water and made it sound dangerous. I will be the first to tell you that illegals and drug do come across this lake as they do on any boarder, but do they stop and rob us ,NO NO NO this is not happening. If there was a robbery that was six months ago and I have not heard or seen anything since. I know that all of us local guides are fishing a bunch in Mexico.
http://falconlakeguide.com/blog/?m=201009
****
So, really without knowing the motives behind what they are putting out there, it’s a tough call. It is my impression this post was made prior to the DH incident. I personally wouldnt have gone out there, but here you have people ( the Hartley’s) that have lived there and for whatever reason claim to have had the same lack of concern as this 9/22 poster did, except they weren’t fishing.
Maybe if you are protected in some fashion you dont experience the trouble?
30.lee says:
October 17, 2010 at 11:24 pm
~snippet~
“The truth still remains, this incident involves Mexico. EVERYTHING in Mexico is hinky. Certainly every level of government and law enforcement is also hinky. Things are rarely as they appear. If anyone wants to hang their hat on thinking they’ve figured out what exactly what went down or are even close, go ahead. I’ve already learned to wait. And it could be a very long wait. Often times when it comes to things that involve Mexico…you never find out what happened.”
******
Lee, I cannot agree more that it is doubtful we will hear the truth and nothing but the truth from Mexico wrt to this and many incidents.
For me, that is not the factor in place that I am using to evaluate what may have occurred here. It has to do with the Harley’s behavior, history and TYH’s statements. I dont think anyone can proclaim to have the all the facts and it’s final dispo. at all. Speaking for myself, I am waiting to hear more, but if I was asked to make an early prediction, I would have to say suspicious based on what we have been made aware of thus far.
@Madilu,
My source for the changing story was the Houston Chronicle. I would have linked it here but I had trouble earlier in the day with their links not working. The Chronicle broke their story on Sunday morning.
Yes, it may have been another AP re-do. These things often are.
Just a quick thought—everyone wanted the US authorities to storm the border and “get the bad guys”.
Remember a couple of years ago when Dog The Bounty Hunter went after that Andrew Luster guy was was wanted for several counts of rape and had fled to Mexico? His father was funneling him money to live there.
Who got in trouble?? Who ended up in jail?? The good guy. They finally got the mess straightened out and the creep extradited back to the US.
Mexico has a history of harboring wanted criminals from all over the world. It does no good to storm the border or flex muscle. The only thing they respond to is the almighty dollar. I am sure quite a few dollars had to be exchanged to get Dog out of jail and creep rapist in jail.
Maybe it’s just me, but something with this whole thing is not sitting right. She shows no emotion. I would be a basket case talking about seeing my husband shot in the head right in front of me. She is cold, methodical. It all stinks. Not saying there is not some truth in it – but something is not right. Wait and see what I tell you – something is not right.
It just blew me away when I read the online media websites’ stories on this and how Tiffany is now saying that David was shot in the NECK, and shot twice at that. How many times did we hear her say he was shot in the HEAD in the last two weeks? Back of the head? Turned him over and it was the front of the head? Well at least it was consistently the head all that time. Now we have the NECK. And also that he was shot twice when no previous mention of David suffering more than one shot. And the news stories just blindly report this with NO remark whatsoever that she had previously stated many times he was shot in the head….it’s like everyone has turned into a robot over this and they just crank out the information with no questions. What is wrong with this picture? Are they afraid of setting off an international incident or something? How long does it take the media to say, “wait a minute…” I’ve never seen anything like this – usually they are all over it when someone shows no remorse or changes their story – but this one is “hands off” for some reason. Guys, is it just me? I don’t get this.
Just in case you are interested in border issues these are some excerpts from a lengthy article:
http://www.theinvestigativefund.org/investigations/immigrationandlabor/1401/at_war_in_texas?page=1
Faced with unprecedented sums of federal funding, many rural sheriffs’ departments have been forced to hire grant administrators to handle the paperwork. But the sheriffs have few complaints — other than that they deserve still more money, especially to pay for full-time employees rather than overtime for deputies. Sparsely inhabited Hudspeth County — just 3,058 inhabitants; 0.7 per square mile — is awash in federal border-security funding. The county, which has an annual budget of about $3.1 million, receives as much as $1 million per year in border-security grants. In Zapata County, Sheriff Gonzalez has so much border-security funding from DHS and DOJ that each of his deputies is assigned two vehicles, a patrol car for regular duty and a new SUV for overtime border-security operations.
The ballooning budgets of the sheriffs departments are the envy of the commissioners in Texas’s rural, border-area counties, sixteen of which are among the hundred poorest counties in the United States. Border sheriffs enjoy virtually unlimited overtime-pay accounts, new fleets of vehicles, and the latest security technology. Meanwhile, commissioners watch helplessly as county revenues sink because of declining populations and stagnating local economies, as social services and schools plunge into decrepitude.
….The crime numbers in rural border counties are also reassuringly low and falling. The FBI’s Unified Crime Report (UCR), which tracks major categories of crimes — murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny-theft, and arson — doesn’t support the dire picture of mayhem and murder painted by border sheriffs and politicians. From 2007 to 2008 (the most recent figures publicly available for counties), the UCR numbers fell from 96 acts to 74 in Sheriff West’s Hudspeth County and from 536 acts to 382 in Gonzalez’s Zapata County (population 13,792).
….”That’s chamber-of-commerce talk,” Gonzalez huffs, a phrase echoed by other Texas and Southwestern Coalition principals. Officials in border metropolitan areas like El Paso, McAllen, and Brownsville downplay spillover violence and other threats to border security, he says, “out of fear that they will lose their tourists and scare away some business.” Teclo Garcia, director of government relations for McAllen, disagrees. “We are, of course, not blind to the cartel violence across the border,” he says, “but the image of spillover violence is promoted by politics, by those who are using violence for political gain.”
To Lily:
Thank you for you sane comments about Mexico.
This is my experience also…
it is a beautiful friendly country, and I love it.
( What country is without danger? Ours certainly is not…and while there are some areas of Mexico with BIG problems – this does NOT mean the whole country!)
To Lee:
I am sorry, but this comment offends me:
“The truth still remains, this incident involves Mexico. EVERYTHING in Mexico is hinky. Certainly every level of government and law enforcement is also hinky.”
In Oaxaca, they have just elected the first non-PRI Governor in 80 years. The opposition parties ( very diverse in political views) banded together to elect a fine person to the post,( I KNOW the new Governor – quite by chance) and get rid of a party that has oppressed Oaxaca.
I live in this state. I have a business in Oaxaca…
it is not much different from having a business in New Mexico, where I also live.
For the record, I am blond and blue-eyed….and have always been met with kindness in Mexico.
Reported by: Will Ripley
Reported by: Farrah Fazal
Reported by: Camaron Abundes
Last Update: 10/02 6:09 pm
911 Call Details Murder on Falcon Lake
[snip]
She could see the gunshots wounds to his head. His brains were falling and he was not breathing,” he said.
The man tried to console her. She told him she and her husband David had gone to old Guerrro on the Mexico side of the lake to take pictures of a Spanish mission. [snip]
http://www.krgv.com/news/local/story/911-Call-Details-Murder-on-Falcon-Lake/uswGSvm9Hku0eC9foze9Yw.cspx
(About nine paragraphs from bottom of article)
Is Tiffany senile or the press misreporting?
Mountaintime…It is not my intention to offend you or anyone else. I’m criticizing the cartels and Mexican government, those are the hinky entities. I don’t have problem with the everyday people of Mexico. I’ve lived in El Paso all of my life. I’m fully bilingual, my husband is Mexican American and my aunt was Cuban.
Mermaid14….you gave a perfect example when you referred to Dog the Bounty Hunter. That’s what happens to El Paso police officers and Border Patrol agents all the time. If Mexico was interested in a true “partnership” that kind of thing would not happen.It’s absolutely disgraceful.
Eloise…Although the Hartley’s behavior that day might arouse some suspicions, to my knowledge, they had nothing in the way of weapons so how threatening could they have been to anyone? Regardless of what happened, the Hartley’s were the victims. I’m tending to go along with the theory presented by that private investigator who said that it was one of the baby Zetas that fired the shots.Whether it was intentional or whether the guy was young and cocky and thought he was a toughie and went too far, who knows.
Lily…I don’t know where you got that information about El Paso not being dangerous…but that is total horseshit. What’s not dangerous about bullets flying across the border into El Paso? My husband was right at the spot the day that the last gun battle occurred in Juarez in the middle of the street. He was on the US side and he and a whole bunch of other people had to run for cover to get out of the line of fire. That was the day that SEVEN BULLETS hit the University of Texas at El Paso. What’s not dangerous about cartel people chasing people in cars down our main streets, firing at them?
ANYWAY….I’m done with this.
Ok, ok, maybe the Press is misreporting. But what a leap from a HEAD shot to a NECK shot. If she did change it and say NECK then she’s nailed, because you can’t see someone’s brains falling out of their neck.
It just gets me how most sources are reporting that David was shot and killed when there’s not one tiny little iota of evidence to prove that he is really dead and that this all happened. And what about his jetski? Those things are pretty good-sized; you don’t just ride ashore and pick it up and leave. No matter who took David’s jetski, whether it was David himself or an unknown Tiffany boyfriend or the cartel, one would have to back a trailer into the water that’s attached to a vehicle and put the jetski up on the trailer and then drive away. The idea that someone could do this without ANYONE seeing something is pretty hard to grasp. Do we know for a fact that anyone saw them launch BOTH jetskis in the first place? If so, maybe they planned this and they launched both skis where someone would see them, then they rode them to another spot (isolated) where David’s was taken out of the water with another trailer/vehicle and driven away (by whom? again, could be David himself, a Tiffany boyfriend or the cartel). Then David and Tiffany rode Tiffany’s jetski together. Then maybe Tiff took David ashore and he took off with the jetski which was already on a trailer attached to a vehicle. Then Tiffany came flying back in on her jetski with her wild story. Did anyone check out the car rental agencies to see if one was rented in David’s name on that day? IDK this whole thing is screwy. MOO
LOL Lee – apparently you missed my comment about how much time I’ve spent in El Paso. My husband’s ex-wife lives there – her husband is very high up in the local government for the city. I have an office in El Paso and have crossed the border countless times into Juarez to visit customers and eat at some of the fabulous restaurants. My son was a cameraman for a local tv station there after he got his BS in history and he took post-grad courses at UTEP (beautiful campus) for 2 years. I have employees who have lived and worked in both El Paso and Juarez and who have family on both sides of the border. I have literally spent a large portion of my career traveling and staying in El Paso for weeks at a time.
I AM VERY WELL ACQUAINTED with El Paso, the schools, the government, the people, local businesses and yes, because part of my responsibility to my employees is to keep them safe – I understand the issues.
I live in South Texas now. I have crossed from Texas and Mexico at nearly every border crossing except in Nogales and Sonora. I’ve driven from San Diego – through Tijuana down to Rosarito. Would I do that now? No I would not – because the cartels are out of control in the border crossing areas fighting with one another over control of drug trade routes. But it’s not total “horseshit” (LOL your word) when I say I would not hesitate to live in El Paso (or at least not because of safety issues).
Maybe this article will shed some reality on how safe El Paso truly is from local news station there:
http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/25001514/detail.html
IMO, there is NO WAY that a shot to the head- and in the forehead(as suggested by gesturing)could later become- he was shot in the neck- This makes me wonder about Tiffany’s other interview, I believe with Greta? where she stated she first thought he might have been shot in the shoulder, that is until she turned him over… I can understand- a mistake about a neck shot and a shoulder shot, but definitely not a head shot vs a shoulder shot-
I agree with others here that the MSM just skimming over the NEW information of # of shots and a neck shot vs a head shot- is VERY unprofessional. If they are going to do their jobs of following this story and keeping the public up to date then by all means REPORT all the facts, inconsistencies, account/s ect.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wife-man-allegedly-killed-mexican-pirates-questioned/story?id=11905913
Bolded by me-
“The wife of a man ALLEGEDLY killed by pirates on a lake that straddles the U.S.-Mexico border will return to FBI offices today to resume a marathon session of questions from Mexican authorities. ”
David Hartley was last SEEN Sept. 30 when Tiffany said he was SHOT by Mexican pirates while the couple rode Jet Skis on the Mexican side of Falcon Lake (Now no mention of where or how many times he was shot)
When asked if she thought she would be arrested if she went to Mexico, Hartley said, “POSSIBLY.”
Do I sense a little difference in ABC’s reporting?
——
I don’t know what happened on Falcon Lake- but 12 hrs of questioning seems to be not enough to get the whole story, as the FBI and Mexican authorities are continuing their questioning of Tiffany today.
I really am beginning to wonder if she just got scared and ran the second she and her husband were “looked at” by whomever… I think maybe she didn’t stick around to see anything… She might have just wanted attention and sympathy and reported “her story” in a way that would best portray her, as a loving, caring wife, and a heroic, courageous woman, whom God spared because she is a Christian…
If this isn’t the case, why has “her story” changed over and over… Honest people who are looking for help to recover their loved ones-, do not immediately have memorials, they do not immediately believe they are dead, or unrecoverable, and they don’t lie, or tell half truths- even to make themselves look better IMO they tell the story exactly the way it happened, often times taking on MORE blame adding more details, than are needed- because they feel guilty that they were spared and were unable to help their loved ones… JMO
Hi Blink – I have two questions I’m hoping someone here might know the answer to:
1. Is the FBI able to arrest someone for planning in the U.S. a murder or kidnapping that occurred in Mexico?
2. Are there any other pictures of David Hartley riding his jet ski that show if he is wearing his wedding ring or not? The one that’s posted up above, it looks like there might be something shiny on his left hand, but I can’t say for sure. Thanks!
Lee, we all respect your point of view and your insights- but you knew some of us were going to disagree with you- we did not ‘trounce’ on you- we gave our differing opinions, respectfully- So why are you done with this?
How can we have balance, if those that have differing opinions run out on the conversation? Don’t be done Lee- we all are very passionate people- we all are opinionated -and we all want justice and the truth- whatever may come- so stick around-
You may be right- who knows- the investigation isn’t through yet…
There is so much to read on this thread, my head is spinning. Can’t keep up. All good info!
Maybe someone can explain to me, why Tiffany is wearing her husband’s wedding ring? Shouldn’t the ring been lost, along with David?
-Tiffany Hartley is wearing her husband’s wedding ring alongside hers, according to NBC’s “Today” show.–
Have you found the church & town ruins on google maps yet? We enjoyed comparing the UT document/guide against the imagery on google maps. (had to keep switching between satellite view & map view to find it while zooming in) Or see link below, but view box is too small for
crimesolver says:
October 17, 2010 at 4:25 pm
me, pics included though.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/41373426
This link is good too, so many links to explore on each page. There is a good pic of “land behind church” on Landscape and Aerial Views link.
http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Past/Book/Part5/part5.html#intro5
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thank-you, Crimestopper, for the crisp photos. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/41373426
http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Past/Book/Part5/aerial5.html
Plentiful brush behind the Church. I was curious sbout the landscape, since, TH, has mentioned the brush, by Nuestra Señora del Refugio Church. She mentioned the brush on a video clip on Youtube.
I will dig for the video, why is she mentioning the brush? I said to myself.
Thank-you, for the link to the backyard of Church. I have a better
understanding of the grounds.
@ rhoni says:
October 18, 2010 at 3:47 pm
Tiffany Hartley is wearing her husband’s wedding ring alongside hers, according to NBC’s “Today” show.–
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is a really great audio interview that TH did & I tried to find the link here which is where I heard TH say that David never wore his rings when jet skiing..
I’ll keep looking for that link & will post when I find it..