Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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I watched Friday’s (September 28) Dateline and found it absolutely riveting.
It was about how an individual set in motion a murder for hire on another individual. Verrrrrry interesting.
For anyone that wants to watch it online:
“The Plot Thickens”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032600/vp/49219548#49219548
Good summation, January, thanks.
@M Harris. For that matter, when and where
did TMH say he had one June 4?
come to think of it, no one whatsoever said he had one June 4 except Porter.
She could produce no note to the school. Kaine did say
he thought there was one in the nebulous future.
about Terri telling all she failed one or more ldt question(s).
one tiny aside from a law school prof’s (and former govt prosecutor)
2 hr lecture on legal ethics, is he said police lie all the time (to achieve
investigatory results) to persons of interest in a case on their ldt results.
So I don’t put any stock in their telling Terri that or even the bios,
because they could easily want the result of bios
pressuring Terri.
btw, Blink, what facts? (insert smiley face)
I’d like the content of those 911 calls. The May
call could show past threatening behavior by RS,
as well as motive.
Hey Blink,
I don’t think it’s the full moon that’s got the posters on the SZ and photos to the point you’re dumping in the wood shavings.
I think it is our utter incredulity that there is a description of SZ that hasn’t been released.
lizzy
I completely get that and share in the frustration. I promise not to get back on the wheel if everyone else does
B
M Harris says:
September 30, 2012 at 6:19 pm
@lyla says:
September 30, 2012 at 4:35 pm
~~~~~~~~
HOW do we “know” Ky did not have a dr appt on June 4 and when did Terri “state” that he had one on the following Fri, June, 11?
————
i believe the June 11 DR.s appt. is a pretty well known issue.
-snip
According to sources, investigators believe Terri Horman was vague about which Friday she was referring to when she gave notice to the school Kyron would be gone and only after he was missing did she clarify that the doctor’s appointment was on June 11, the Friday after the science fair.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98981009.html
I also think that the only after the science fair blurb(sources) means that Ms. Porter said she did not understand that the DR’s appt. was for June 11 instead of June 4 which makes me wonder if Ms. Porter’s claim of not understanding was just CYA. on Ms. Porter’s part.
This has been nagging at me me for a long time. Now that we are back on the topic of the plaid shirt……
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/01/kyron_horman_search_starts_wit.html
Marty Neiman, a canine training officer who founded the Tualatin-based nonprofit search-and-rescue organization Search One K9 Detection, combed through four areas with a partner and his cadaver-detecting dog, Justice. Neiman slowly and meticulously made his way through some dense woods, but found his areas to mostly be grassy and without the thick, bushy undergrowth.
He searched one area down a gravel road, about four miles from Skyline Boulevard. Neiman came across an old orange-and-blue plaid shirt, but it was too big for Kyron and had been there too long, he said.
Is his shirt orange and blue?
B
RedRose says:
It’s hard to tell exactly what color the plaid shirt was from the science fair photo.
It could be orange and blue, black and blue, yellow and blue???? When the oregonlive report was first published, they showed a photo of the shirt the that the searcher found but it has since gone poof. I do remember that the “size of the plaid” was the same.
Rose says:
September 30, 2012 at 1:22 am
@MbS. imo “third party” Kaine reference is transactional.
Terri & Kyron are 1/2. Terri’s helper is no.3.
@Rose. Thanks for clearing up that language.
Re the pictures:
I’ve never thought of the 2 people in the pictures as the same person, although that was just an assumption on my part. We probably could have saved a lot of confusing dialog if we had simply known that a long time (years) ago. It isn’t clear to ME that it’s the same guy (or even a guy in one), but since B has more information, I accept that it is.
Blink says: “One is a close up from the image, but you can still clearly see his shirt(s).” I can’t see this is a “close up” or clearly see his clothing but I am accepting that some people, perhaps with better equipment, can. Blink also says: “If we are talking about the man to the left rear of the class who we have seen in a few different pic variations, he is the dude in plaid . . . “ – therefore, I’m assuming there are pictures (“a few different pic variations”) Blink has seen, but I have not seen since I am only aware of the 2 pictures as shown in WW and other articles.
Blink also says: “That is the same man. Headless, torsoless, plaid or non-plaid, it is the same man.”
“Final answer” – unless Blink says differently in the future, the picture of the man with the face and the picture of the person in plaid show us the very same person and this person is not SZ. I think I’ve got it now!
One last (maybe) question:
“Er go, I do not believe plaid shirt with 2 young girls who may be of asian descent is SZ.”
B
OK – Now I do not see TWO young girls in the picture of the plaid person or the face. How do we know there were two young girls there? Does everybody but me see them?
I totally agree with wpg re:
“Well then if there was indeed a man with 2 girls in Kyron’s classroom when TH was taking photos with Kyron present, I presume that TH saw them and KNEW THIS when she emailed on June 5:
(snipped)
“I left the school at 9 and he was seen with a man ‘chaperone’ and 2 girls after I left. There were no men on the chaperone list. That and it was highly chaotic – had to been 300 people running around – no coordination …”
HOWEVER: Terri later changed her story to say she left at 8:45. Mrs. Zimmerman said she saw her take the picture of Kyron at 8:30 – both of these times were before the 9 AM time when everyone met to divide into groups and tour with a “chaperone”. So either this is not the “man chaperone” she was referring to, or she used her visual memory of this man and 2 girls to create the story that Kyron was seen with a man and 2 girls. And if they left the room at the same time, someone could have seen them and thought Kyron was with a man and 2 girls.
BLINK – just to be sure since I can’t see them – are you saying there were TWO girls with the man in plaid (who now has a face) in the classroom?
Sorry for dragging this on, but if I don’t ask now, it will come up in a week or a month or so anyway.
———————————
For Reference:
wpg says:
September 30, 2012 at 12:15 pm
“Er go, I do not believe plaid shirt with 2 young girls who may be of asian descent is SZ.”
B
Well then if there was indeed a man with 2 girls in Kyron’s classroom when TH was taking photos with Kyron present, I presume that TH saw them and KNEW THIS when she emailed on June 5:
(snipped)
“I left the school at 9 and he was seen with a man ‘chaperone’ and 2 girls after I left. There were no men on the chaperone list. That and it was highly chaotic – had to been 300 people running around – no coordination …”
Only one comment on this beautiful full moon Sunday night…..if the identity of MM (non-plaid goatee man) is unknown to MCSO, then MCSo is either lying to the public when they say they know everyone that was there that day (June 4, 2010), or the photo was taken on a different day. That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it. LOL Night all.
@ TRuth. wrt http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/02/fbi_will_dedicate_up_to_six_ag.html?mobRedir=false
“The actual account of everyone and everything that was on that campus that day, we now know,” he said.”
Staton did not say he knew the name of all present, just the “account.”
ie, a reasonable account could play out as an unidentified man whose description is ….. was seen with Kyr by x y and z.
btw if LE lies to poi’s to further investigations, imo they darn sure will lie to more diffuse stakeholders–
the public. It might cost a Sheriff at election time if he loses public trust.
but if he doesn’t talk at all thereafter for a few years, the public memory is short & moves on
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_horman_investigation_tra.html?mobRedir=false
Sheriff is chatty cathy in above interview until this question when he shuts down and morphs into mr “i can’t comment” for the remainder:
Mather: “Sheriff, earlier when this all began Capt. Gates was very emphatic when he said that the office fully believes this is an isolated incident. Do you still stand by that, can you comment on that? Do you really believe this is just a one-time thing that happened?”
I just visited Skyline ES website for first time; I am truly shocked they have the daily schedule (and other items I find risky) on front page of site. this tells times of arrival, dismissal, lunch, recess….
My son’s elementary school in MD is very cautious and none of this type of information can be found on their website; it is only distributed in handouts from the teacher. It may not be as efficient as a website; but you don’t know know who is lookiing at the school sites.
Forgot link: http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools/skyline/203.htm
@Rose says:
September 30, 2012 at 8:21 pm
@M Harris.
~~
“For that matter, when and where
did TMH say he had one June 4?”
~~~
Dear Rose, I try so hard to keep fact from rumor in my mind that I didn’t realize I had completely bought into the June, 4, doctors appt.
~~~~~
@cd says:
September 30, 2012 at 9:28 pm
M Harris says:
September 30, 2012 at 6:19 pm
HOW do we “know” Ky did not have a dr appt on June 4 and when did Terri “state” that he had one on the following Fri, June, 11?
RE:
“i believe the June 11 DR.s appt. is a pretty well known issue.”
-snip
According to sources, investigators believe Terri Horman was vague about which Friday she was referring to when she gave notice to the school Kyron would be gone and only after he was missing did she clarify that the doctor’s appointment was on June 11, the Friday after the science fair.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98981009.html
~~~~
I’m not,at all, impressed by “sources” in this case but can be mislead…as Rose pointed out. I still question, respectfully, Lyla’s post that we “know” and Terri “stated”…..
The June, 11, drs appt is not well known to me either. That’s why I ask questions. No offense intended towarded anyone.
~~~~
@MockingbirdSings says:
September 30, 2012 at 10:45 pm
~~~
RE:
Re the pictures:
~~~~~
I too have always thought the pics were of two different men and I haven’t seen a pic of two little girls.
Just some random facts that are not always at the surface:
-There was only 7 days of school left after Kyron was taken. Was SZ’s window closing for acting out his plan? I believe the SF was the opportunity he needed.
-According to the ‘posted’ timeline, it was almost 45 minutes for LE to arrive at Skyline after the school called 911 to report Kyron missing.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/kyron_horman_chronology_of_eve.html
-Bio parents didn’t publically speak to the media for 3 weeks after Kyron’s disappearance(6/25/10). http://www.katu.com/news/97152014.html Why was that? Were they instructed by MSCO to not comment?
-As quoted in interview link above, Kaine Horman and Young wouldn’t discuss law officials’ interest in the stepmother. Kaine Horman said his wife is “as committed as the rest of the family to finding Kyron” and she is cooperating with investigators. [so in the beginning, did KH think she was cooperating, but then he changed his tune later?]
-And another interview…6/25/10
“But Kyron’s biological parents stand by Terri Horman.
“I believe she’s committed, as the rest of our family is, to finding Kyron. And any other information regarding that is — the investigators are working with her and with us to help find him, so I don’t really have any other comment on that,” said Kaine. Young shook her head in agreement as he spoke.
Young and Kaine Horman have chosen not to speak out to the media until now because, they say, they wanted to keep the focus on Kyron. But they say they’re doing it now hoping it helps the probe.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500202_162-6617351.html
-KH filed RO and divorce on 6/28/10.
How different their opinions are now from then. Was the MFH a ruse from LE to get their case against TH moving?
Come on LEO, what has been done over the last 2 years isn’t working; swallow your pride, ask for help and start afresh.
I have finally been able to watch the AMW show featuring Kyron’s story, several days ago when that episode was available to view online on the show’s website. I don’t have cable t.v.
That episode is no longer available on the site. It wasn’t up. Then it was up. Now it’s not up. Oh, well.
Anyway, my impressions of the show — many of you already saw it, so my opinions are as of seeing it long after you did:
So, I pretend that I never heard of Kyron, did not know a thing about about his disappearance, etc. And I watch AMW’s that night and hear his story.
What I see: KH and KH’s efforts to raise awareness, some chat about the investigation, comments about TH, a rehash of long ago information that has not been updated, and…..Kyron’s photo.
OK, that’s interesting. I think to myself — “gosh, that kid’s been missing for more than 2 years? Hope someone calls in a good tip because of this!”
What I do not learn from the show: ANYTHING ELSE.
I learn nothing about DY. I get the impression that Kryon’s parents were KH and TH, and DY is a blank spot.
I don’t know about the civil lawsuit. I don’t know about DY’s separate efforts to “raise awareness.” I don’t know about the case itself, because LE did not provide any updates. I just know that Kyron is missing.
Fine. That’s enough, in one way. I have seen Kyron’s picture and I know he’s missing and he was 7 when he disappeared from his school. I also know that TH is a focus.
So my view on the program is Score 1 for Kyron’s face, name, and status being out there again to a large national audience. And then.
Score 0 on the story itself as presented on the show. It was misleading. “Leads” and “Tips” are generation from facts. Facts were, in huge chunks, not stated in the AMW episode.
AGAIN, all that really came out was that TH is being looked at.
Sorry, but I was not convinced that this episode of AMW was going to help find Kyron. I feel that JW should have just agreed to show Kyron as a “missing child” alert, and not interviewed KH. By only interviewing one of Kyron’s parents, with DY’s status nearly non-existent in the story, that is misleading, and you cannot look to the public for help if you leave massive amounts of information out of the segment. Leads and tips could be related to someone that DY knows, someone who is pissed at TY, someone who understood the back drama between KH and DY…all of that is important. It wasn’t there.
All of this JMO of course. Grrrrrrrrrrr…..
@NelMel. Me too, I just watched the AMW Kyron episode this weekend and my excitement to finally watch it was quickly deflated. JW’s KyRAN mispronuciation was so distracting for me. But I too questioned, where is any mention of DY? It seemed to be a spotty distortion of the known facts; even mangling the little guys name. Wouldn’t KH have corrected JW during the interview as to the proper pronunciation? JW had it correct in earlier airings, why so wrong this time?
I’m just sick at where this stands and the pain his mother is feeling. This case is cold and until LE makes a change in the handling of this; I unfortunately don’t ever see this as being solved.
Rose says:
October 1, 2012 at 12:42 am
LOL, I know, Staton speak with forked tongue.
JMO, too, but I think these shows (even though AMW has a fair amount of success in finding missing persons) are more about ratings than anything else. This was the first show of the season, on a new network. They were looking for audience. They wanted it short and snappy – not getting into details that might give them more than the requisite 12-20 minutes.
The GOOD thing about the program is that it returned some awareness and maybe that will jiggle some information loose.
We can probably find out more, even faster, with Google.
@NelMel says:October 1, 2012 at 11:33 am
Finster said Horman had told Kyron’s teacher the day before that she was taking the boy to the doctor on Friday, June 11, and gave the teacher paperwork to fill out related to the appointment.
Finster said that when Kyron didn’t show up at the bus the afternoon of June 4, Horman talked to the teacher who said she thought that Horman had taken Kyron to the doctor that day. Horman told Finster that the child’s teacher was new, in her first year of teaching, and was hard of hearing in one ear. “She doesn’t know if she understood her,” Finster said.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/friend_says_terry_moulton_horm.html
and this from Kaine:
Q: Was Kyron supposed to be out of school the following Friday for a doctor’s appt.?
A: KAINE – There was some discussion about the appointment but it was unknown exactly when the appointment was scheduled so we cannot comment for certain.
http://www.kptv.com/news/24151901/detail.html
True (according to Terri): “The teacher thought I said I was going to take Kyron with Kitty for a doctor’s appt.,” she wrote on June 5, 2010. “I said I was going to look at other exhibits – how do you mess that up? His coat and backpack were still at school.”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html
picked those up from websleuths
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dVHtbl9-el0J:www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-109402.html+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Quoting Kim Holm’s interview:
http://www.examiner.com/article/kyron-horman-case-stepmom-gave-missing-boy-s-school-mixed-messages-about-doctor-appointment-video
“And the teacher said ‘I thought he left with his mom,’ because they thought they had a doctor appointment,” said Holm. “And then at lunchtime—Kurtis ate lunch with him every day—he [Kyron] wasn’t there at lunchtime. And then I got a call at 4:30ish saying he didn’t get off the bus, I guess. And Kurtis said, ‘Oh yeah, I knew he was already gone all day Mom.’”
(All, snipped, more where you can still find them, LOL)
These are the only people I recall, saying anything about Kyron having a doctor appointment that day (early on).
I could be wrong, but I don’t think we ever heard Porter say she thought he had a doctor’s appointment. I was thinking I’d seen a video of Matt Shelby or Ben Keefer saying something to that effect, but I can’t find it.
So we have Terri saying (via an email to a friend) what she said to Porter, Jaymie saying Terri told her what she said to Porter, and that she (Terri) gave Porter paperwork the day before (all hearsay). And we have Kim Holm saying the teacher “thought”, which we don’t know if that information came from Terri or her son Kurtis, but the way it’s written sounds like Kurtis overhead the teacher say Kyron had an appointment, but it’s all hearsay, isn’t it?
I keep saying neighbor said she saw Mr. Horman at the school on Thursday around 3:30, sorry that’s wrong she said 3:00, here’s her post:
http://blinkoncrime.com/2011/01/30/fugitive-cop-shooter-david-durhams-house-located-in-new-kyron-horman-search-grid/comment-page-79/#comments
neighbor says:
April 8, 2011 at 7:27 pm
correct, 3pm
T. Ruth says:
April 8, 2011 at 1:38 pm
@neighbor
Am I reading here correctly that you personally saw KH at Kyron’s school on Thursday, June 3rd? If so, do you recall approximately what time that was? (Hope you don’t find my asking too intrusive.)
Blink!!! Did you delete my post? Sorry I mentioned those pics again but gee whiz! LOL
@Nel Mel. All explained by: The program let researchers & wroters go in June 2011 when contract with station paying a substantial licensing fee did not renew. After a few months (Dec ’11?) they got a new short term contract with their current network (whose picture adverts for several series online seem to have a lot of tease). Just look at the employment background & jounalism experience of the employee who styles himself as ceo of amw these days.
Aaarrgh.
NelMel is feeling frustration today (picks up box of uncooked spaghetti)…
Back to basics. What have we missed?
1. Child evaporates into thin air from school.
2. um…..
We really have nothing. Over 2 years, several crime sites discussing the case, hypotheticals, rumors, heresay, and other than a few stray emails, no public comments by TH. Zipped lips by LE. Parents vocal.
And still, nuttin’…
So, I will talk about ‘puters. Dad was a programmer, son built mine, we have major nerds in this family.
Today, you can clear out your cache and delete your search history. That’s nice. But your searches can still be found via your provider, to a point.
Depends on the websites you use. Depends on your settings. “Private browsing” as an option on Mozilla or IE today did not exist as an option in 1998. Well, it did, but you had to be a major geek with a degree in Thermonuclear Underwater Typing to figure it out.
Encryption. Good luck with that. Even the FBI struggles to keep up with it. Unless you are very skilled, the average computer user at home doesn’t even think about encryption.
Cybercrimes have increased. Hacking has increased.
So, how freakin’ hard is it to search someone electronically and digitally these days?
What was TH’s path and history? Computer (laptop). Cell phones.
Now what if TH was rather accomplished online and did all she could from her own ‘puter to hide her tracks? Fine. But…
FBI or a good local LE person with good skills and technology, via investigative permissions, could search her online activity via whatever company provided wireless or hard wire internet access so she could surf, use Facebook, etc. Servers. Etc.
Now then.
Consider some very terrible crimes committed in the past couple of years. Let’s think: George Sordini, the man who shot and killed women at a gym in the Pittsburgh area in 2009. He was a nut case. He hated women. Something about him was off, and he went to the gym, enraged, murdered women there, and shot himself. The end.
He.was.an.IT.guy. That was his full time job — anything concerning the networking and so forth of the law firm he had worked for, for many years.
Not a guy who’d be careless about leaving a trace, right? Except he did. On purpose. He had a rather lame blog — no graphics, just text — and his Google Searches were reviewed. That all gave us a glimpse of his anger and his motives for his crime.
Now, in other crimes, we hear about what people searched for online, prior to committing a crime. The Party Mom in Florida Who We Are All Very Disgusted With? Her searches were viewed.
Nothing — not one single thing, no hints, no suggestive comments — has ever been offered about TH’s online history, or her cell phone history (other than rumors about her SI pings on 6/5/10).
Now, we have a case of a missing child who, as his own mother said, was sucked into a portal and just disappeared without a trace. In today’s LE world, TH’s ‘puter and everyone else’s are of course looked at. Searches, history, fav websites, emails, you name it. Unless TH was a master at hiding all of that, LE has seen what she usually did online up to 6/4/10 at least. But unlike other big crimes in the news, not a peep about anything found.
I am going to start there. I’m walking back to 6/4/10, and I’m asking two questions:
1. If family close to a missing child is always the first studied when LE responds to a missing child case, IF the initial LE people on the scene were following that protocol, I have to believe it was conducted — immediately pouncing on the parents’ online activity — while those early ground searches were occurring. I believe that. But I don’t know if that happened.
2. If anyone in the Horman home decided “um, gee, now’s a good time to trash my history, purge my cache, delete my this or that,” it would be determined by LE that they did so.
3. Friends, work associates — anyone who sent the Hormans emails or sent the Young’s emails — those messages would be seen on KH’s, TH’s, DY’s and TY’s ‘puters.
4. 911 calls — those transcripts of any 911 calls made by TH up to Kyron’s abduction are known by LE. They have no doubt investigated the issues surrounding each of those calls.
5. Friends who texted them. Records on all the 4 parents’ cell phones.
6. Downloads. Graphics, pics, music, etc.
7. Credit card purchases online
9. Any kind of phone call patterns — a flurry of calls to one specific person, for example, at a specific time
10. That person’s cell phone records
11. All the names in the case that have popped up — DDS, Porter, etc.; I have to believe their cells and ‘puters and such were reviewed.
And lots of others, too.
So, what records were not seen?
The school’s. It was reported that those phone records, which based on their phone system would be digital recordings, were deleted. Pretty sure they were deleted due to aging. A lot of systems purge automatically after specific periods of time.
So folks, with all those binders, and all that “data entry,” and all that studying of data, data, data….after all this time, more than two years, is that the crunch? The missing digital record from the school? Because if this investigation is as thorough as the parents have conveyed to us, the missing data from the school phones is the only chunk of material that could not be reviewed.
Is that what has made this a dead end case? If so…do we look at a school employee to definitely be SZ, or, do we look at someone outside the school staff who just breathed a big sigh of relief because a phone call went swwooooooosh off the digital history, never to be found?
Blink can correct me on this one point, as I am sort of repeating one thing she wrote way back in 2010 — that she was practically choking back saying something about a school employee who subsquently has not returned to the school.
Is the school being given a pass here because someone at the school saw TH as a threat, a victim, a clueless idiot, a partner in crime, and those lost phone data records held the key to that?
Someone upthread was asking where the electrical projects were. This is what neighbor said:
neighbor says:
January 16, 2011 at 11:35 pm
@beejay, At the risk of confusing you (and others) .. CR209 (or maybe CR211) was filled with electrical displays. The before/after school care is in CAFE102. There might have been other electrical displays. I have only been in half the classrooms.
—————
Kyron’s classroom was CR213, next to CR211.
**************
So if neighbors post is correct, then Kyron may well have been on his way to class and got sidelined into the nearby room. However, if this were the case, wouldn’t there have been lots of other kids in those classrooms since it was time to go class? Or, maybe Terri actually left earlier than she said. Or maybe Kyron ducked into the bathroom first? Hmmmm?
Blink’s first articulation — a
bathroom pick up from the school –
makes sense.
T. Ruth says:
September 30, 2012 at 10:54 pm
Only one comment on this beautiful full moon Sunday night…..if the identity of MM (non-plaid goatee man) is unknown to MCSO, then MCSo is either lying to the public when they say they know everyone that was there that day (June 4, 2010), or the photo was taken on a different day. That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it. LOL Night all.
——————-
So, T.Ruth, are you sticking to having 2 different men in the classroom pictures since you said “non-plaid goatee man”? There’s just something about the goatee man’s face that says “I do not wear large plaid, especially with bright yellow stripes”, isn’t there?
When I was a kid and the moon was bright, I used to sleep at the foot of my bed so the moon would shine on my face. My grandmother said that’s how people got to be “lunatics”, so I guess that explains a lot.
Personally, I don’t think she was all that smart on computers. Kaine would have been and anything she learned, she probably picked up from him.
What I REALLY think is that she got some ideas from some of the TV stuff she was watching. Didn’t I read that she liked “Dexter” and something else? I haven’t seen that one, but I have to say that if a person wanted to do A Bad Deed, current television programs usually offer textbook information on how to commit a crime and not get caught.
Of course, the Bad Guys, thinking TV is reality, try to do the same and usually get caught by The Good Guys. Thank goodness for Good Guys. Now if they can just find what happened to Kyron.
I think LE knows very well about TMH’s online path and is just not sharing the information. If the local LE doesn’t know, the FBI does for sure. I hope they check Kaine’s computer as well as TMH’s.
Really interesting msg, NelMel.
–and just how trusting are we of that school. All we seem to be hearing lately is news stories about coaches, scout leaders, others whose lives touch those of children they aren’t related to – being found out for molestation and other crimes. I wonder how many of them are jailed, or just fined and released.
Sometimes the worst things happen at the hands of parents, but more often the worst things happen at the hands of people the parents trusted with their children, and shouldn’t have. It just NEVER hurts to be extra careful – so many things can affect the lives and futures of those little kiddies.
@NelMel says: October 1, 2012 at 4:17 pm
.
Now what if TH was rather accomplished online and did all she could from her own ‘puter to hide her tracks? Fine. But…
RedRose says:October 1, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Oops, sorry. I should have written “SOME” coaches, scout leaders, teachers. Definitely not ALL.
But I still think that it’s really important that no matter how diligently we train our kidlets to be careful, we still need to be the eyes and ears for them whenever possible. It’s just not worth the loss of a child to be casual about this.
Soapbox done.
I have transcribed some of the following KGW – Kyle Iboshi segment with KH before, but I decided to extend my transcription as it seems to me there is a lot of interesting information in a short space.
It is probably just poor reporting, but Iboshi claims LE said TMH failed polygraphs.
- – - – - – - – - – - – -
by Kyle Iboshi, KGW Staff, kgw.com
Posted on May 17, 2011 at 6:12 AM
Updated Tuesday, May 17 at 11:15 AM
http://www.kgw.com/home/Kaine-Horman-still-waiting-for-break-in-Kyron-case-121963559.html
Starting at 1:45
Kaine: “Ya, I believe that there is some form of involvement, I don’t know to what level. It could be directly involved and she, and she’s responsible and she acted alone that day. Or, someone else is involved either with her, or even maybe potentially without her.”
Iboshi (script): “Kaine Horman explains he confronted Terri several times prior to their separation.”
Iboshi (to Kaine): “Did they ever ask you to wear a wire?”
Kaine: “Uh, probably not something I’m going to comment on.”
Iboshi (script): “Law enforcement sources say, Terri’s cell phone records don’t match her whereabouts the day Kyron disappeared. She’s failed lie detector tests, police say. And, Terri has not been cooperative.”
Iboshi (to Kaine): “Based on the information you’ve been given from investigators, do you think they have enough to charge and convict Terri?”
Kaine: “I think, um, well I’ll say no. I, I think that there’s still a significant, um, there’s still a significant amount of work that needs to be done to make sure that Terri is the right person.”
Iboshi (script): “Earlier this year two FBI profilers flew to Portland to help with the investigation.”
Iboshi (to Kaine): “Are they looking at anybody else?”
Kaine: “Um, I don’t have any names in particular. I know that they’re looking at a lot of other people.”
Iboshi (script): “Investigators have not recovered any physical evidence of the missing boy. After a nearly one year investigation, his disappearance remains a mystery.”
Kaine: “In light of something not breaking, coming forward quickly. This is going to be a marathon not a sprint. This could go on for two three four years, potentially, without closure.”
- – - – - – - – - – - – -
So, DY’s motherly instinct struck TMH out at the time of their first phone conversation after Kyron went missing. TY had two strikes against her after the first “failed” poly. And, KH “confronted Terri several times”, possibly wearing a wire.
To me it puts into great question the genuineness of the June 25, 2010 KY and DY interviews as pertains to their at least mild support of TMH. It seems it was a pretty good acting job by both individuals considering the almost immediate June 26th moving out of KH with Ki, the June 26th afternoon sting, and subsequent TRO, divorce filing and scathing indictment of TMH by KY and DY. Is it any wonder that TMH was gradually separating herself from KH, DY, and TY, before the sting?
Things I found interesting in the July 8, 2010 Oregonian sit down interview with KY and DY.
1:40 – DY called Terri. (Reasonable, but why not KH?, did DY subsequently talk to KH?)
2:25 – DY: motherly instinct kicked in, she better not have done anything to my son
3:08 – TMH pulling away, separating herself from the others
4:27 – DY: an unheard question then, in reference to the apparent increasing suspicion of TMH, DY mentions that something would come up, something was said, a feeling I got … “and I would discuss that with them” (who is them, KH and TY? LE?)
3:59 – How DY and KH knew Terri failed LDT (TMH told them openly)
6:39 – Hoping (thinking?) TMH hired someone to take and keep him
10:34 – DY: confident there’s a plan (by LE)
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/07/kyron_hormans_parents_share_de.html
While the hoping and thinking TMH hired someone to take Kyron could mean they think she handed him off to someone, in retrospect it seems more likely they are saying circumstances and witnesses indicate someone other than TMH took him from the school. The hope is, given the alleged MFH, TMH could have hired someone to abduct Kyron from the school giving them, LE, KH, DY and TY, a direct link to Kyron’s whereabouts through TMH, if only they could get her to crack.
The following is the video of the KH and DY Q & A press conference also on July 8, 2010.
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/07/kyron_horman_parents_desiree_y.html
I realize I come off as rather harsh towards KH and DY. Actually, I can understand why they did what they did, and said what they said, at least for the first couple of months. I lay the blame squarely at the feet of MCSO. It appears KH and DY were merely pawns in their plan.
As for TMH, I certainly don’t think she handled herself well. In her situation I am not sure how well I would have done. However, it just might be she is telling the truth and she had nothing to do with Kyron’s disappearance, and she has no idea where he is.
Where I seem to fail perhaps, in presentation, right now, is the most logical conclusion based on known evidence in this case is exactly that.
At what point does ego, fixed theory, denial and understandable grief give way to someone standing up to say what if we were wrong? He is still out there, and the case is at a complete standstill.
And yes, I consider a new ebay shop for tshirts of a missing child for over 2 years a standstill.
B
nelmel says @ 28
So, what records were not seen?
The school’s. It was reported that those phone records, which based on their phone system would be digital recordings, were deleted. Pretty sure they were deleted due to aging. A lot of systems purge automatically after specific periods of time.
Blink can correct me on this one point, as I am sort of repeating one thing she wrote way back in 2010 — that she was practically choking back saying something about a school employee who subsquently has not returned to the school.
Sunnybrook says:
What the missing digital records could be, is a clue to begin at. Is this S0 handiwork? All those who have a password to the computer system should have been checked. Could this system be accessed off premise? imo there should be a trail of those who accessed the computer for that day.
The school employee should be expanded to include school district. Those who may be above suspicion could be school nurses, psychologists, any kind of therapists or IT. Was everyone from the DISTRICT at work the following week? imo,If this were a clue,(meticulously timed kidnapping) then SO must have been be very familliar with the school schedule,layout and especially with end of year special activities.
Prayers for Kyron and his family
http://m.facebook.com/BringKyronHome?id=285217761488861&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bringkyronhome.org%2F&_rd
Jennifer even has an application for volunteers!
FWIW… a post on facebook
https://www.facebook.com/KGWTV8/posts/281770151930699?comment_id=1248676&offset=3&total_comments=91
Rebecca Bergeson Miller F.Y.I….. I know something. A very close friend of mine called me the day of the 2 yr anniversary in a panic. Her parents live out in Corbett and around the same time Kyron went missing Terri was seen at the end of her parents driveway very early in the morning. The white truck was parked and Terri was standing outside the truck. When she saw my friends mom she seemed to get very nervous and ran to the passenger side of the truck and got in. At the time my friends mom knew nothing about the case and did not think much about it. But as soon as she saw the news on the 2yr anniversary she said that she has seen that woman” Terri” on the property. Sense then her parents have NOT gotten any help with any of the local police, Sandy, Clackamas Co,Multnomah Co. Her father and sons took a walk along the property and looked around and noticed things to not seem right. They found piles of rock that was not there two yrs ago. So I ask……. What does anyone on here think should be done? Myself and there daughter have told them that they should not go poking around the property without someone else there. I’d hate for them to be the ones who find Kyron. I pray that he is not on the property. But I wish for closure for the family.
July 18 at 7:16pm
around the time he went missing? That’s just bunk. People drive me batty.
B
Blink, I know this has been beaten to hell but throwing out people that physically saw Kyron at school the morning of June 4, is there any other evidence such as video or photographs (minus Terri’s) of Kyron?
I keep going back and forth with the whole “false memory” trick.
@Sunshine4. You motivated me to catch up to my public school sites. Saw even for el ed there are classroom schedules, a clear bldg plan, and kid pic section. Now the principal is a known idiot, but the layout is so organized I believe this uniform for County. Bell schedules have always been online for middle, but I ses they have 2 onsite security employees. Stuff like this is password protected to
parents in private.
What was and remains remarkable to Skyline before and after abduction are all those cute kid pictures, especially of young “typey” boys combined with an entire absence of ordinary security procedures being followed.
What any SZ perp would know in advance is that Kyron was guaranteed to be unsupervised in the bathroom one or more times in the morning.
@NelMel. I think everything on the school sys was recoverable but it would’ve taken a subpoena.
You put more faith in the MCSO investigation than I do. Once a poi was fixed, I doubt electronics if others, apart ftom her probable associates like DD, were scrutinized.
Thinking back to that shift in investigation (after a year?) to electronics, I doubt they did much before that. I doubt they did much but Terri after that. They certainly didn’t go after PPS. Does that mean they had no probable cause? I have a vague memory a Calif contractor was involved in that aspect of the investigation. I wonder who? When I think Calif IT, I think friends of Kaine or Intel.
Back to that 2 hour ethics seminar I attended — it was really on use of social media & electronics, keeping in mind The Rules, ie client confidentiality, from a guy who’s worked at DOJ for NSA etc. All I can say is Beejay’s husband has it right, and it’s still probably not enough. Remember phones/iphone/pad have zero security. keep in mind anyone can tap your “calendar” and schedule easily. Keep in mind servers are subcontractor’ed & subbed again, offshore, much in Asia & other countries. Amazon I learned is a big server builder player (off shore). Nothing is secure from this lecturer’s pov. . (with lawyers, this goes to client confidentiality). The 40 yo males in the room were resistant, but I took away don’t use email for any confidence. If you’re a lawyer, don’t blog legal advice (that differs from a case analysis like Lea’s) because it crosses State lines. I always assumed lives online were open books, eset or not, but this speaker truly reinforced that. He really spoke on the risks of using social media such as Facebook to do case research–friending people, even if using real names for the purpose of research etc. Cops can do it, John Q Public can, journalists can. But attorneys retained on a case & their supervisees shouldn’t (cases are just starting to get out there on the ethics thing). So good luck S Houze on his investigators using social media tools to do research. Beejay your husband is spot on.
Caveat, as I was proofing, I just got my usual harassing call from Seattle: “Hello, this is your Captain speaking….” never responsive to my remove request. Mad enough to just press “post” w/o finishing review.
RedRose says:
October 1, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Yes, I agree LE knows very well her pathway and is just not sharing—-and a few others pathways, for that matter. MHO and my word picture: They have enough “shoelace” know it’s a “shoe”—- but not enough “shoelace” to tie it on the foot.
I think this is my frustration with the lop-sided, re-hash job done by AMW—-there is so much more. If only a local reporter would be able to do an in depth look at this case — hour long special, not focused on car shows and coloring contests, but re-enactments and hearing afresh from those originally interviewed, reviewing timelines for all, and actually hearing from LE what progress has been made —-granted I stand about as much chance of winning the lottery!
sunnybrook says:
October 2, 2012 at 3:28 am
(snipped)
What the missing digital records could be, is a clue to begin at. Is this S0 handiwork? All those who have a password to the computer system should have been checked. Could this system be accessed off premise? imo there should be a trail of those who accessed the computer for that day.
The school employee should be expanded to include school district. Those who may be above suspicion could be school nurses, psychologists, any kind of therapists or IT. Was everyone from the DISTRICT at work the following week? imo,If this were a clue,(meticulously timed kidnapping) then SO must have been be very familliar with the school schedule,layout and especially with end of year special activities.
———————————————————————-
I recall the topic of missing/deleted school phone records was brought up in news reports hinting that it was viewed as the natural course of events — the school’s communication records were gone, poof, because there is a time/date limit on how long they are kept? Up to a date of automatic *poof* the LE team should have reviewed the records, but did not? Or, did not even ask to see them? How that situation was portrayed in the news was, as usual for this case, nothing but vague.
So I will recall my days coming and going from my kids’ grade school office, and what I would hear the very overworker secretary handle on her phone, especially on “event” days:
Parents would have called about the SF projects — delivery, set up, deadline. Absent minded parents would call about the schedule or to ask silly questions (every school has those!). Volunteers would have called. The normal average of absentee calls for sick students. Communication to/from the bus dispatcher. District calls. Calls to the school nurse and from her office. Vendors — anything worked on such as electrical or plumbing if contracted out. Sub teachers for schedules or cancels. Let’s see what else…
1. Divorced parents calling to change child’s pick up — “Dad is getting him today instead of me.”
2. Child care centers — our local village’s center was constantly on/off the phone with the school office.
3. Physicians offices to communicate with nurse
4. Counselors working by appointments
5. Any contractors for any reason — start dates, weather-related, etc.
6. Inspections — fire extinquishers, smoke alarm systems, sprinkler systems, etc.
7. Media — calling for information about events (small town weeklies here are always calling schools)
8. Police — has a child’s parent been arrested? Crime in the family such as domestic violence?
9. Older teen siblings who pick up students
10. Emergency for parent
11. Sales issues — schools buy stuff
12. Investigations into child abuse/sexual abuse
13. Student teachers
14. External: municiple staff such as water/sewage, highway, etc., (road construction in front of schools, broken water mains, etc.)
There are tons of people who could have called the school in just the week prior to the SF.
Add on that — emails to school and faxes to school. Were those deleted too due to aging? Or just the phone records?
Yikes.
Excellent refresher of all parties involved in Kyron’s disappearance thanks to Scared Monkeys. I never saw this comprehensive list before (3/4 way down page.)
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?action=printpage;topic=8168.0
Blink – I absolutely appreciate, understand, and applaud your point about priority and public safety.
As a Portland local, what concerns me is that there is a brazen, organized, child-grabbing SZ on the loose (is he?), and we know nothing about him to protect our little ones. I know we can’t live in constant fear, but I have been concerned and I grow more and more nervous for the safety of our kids knowing that this guy is still out there, and probably “needing” to strike (feed)again. Why isn’t he a public safety issue and priority with our LE who haven’t even publicly acknowledged his existence??
Again, I couldn’t handle your overwhelming caseload, so I’m not trying to take value away from anything else you are working on, and I know you care times infinity, just had to voice concern.
Seems like I remember initially Kaine’s computer could not be seized because it was a work computer for Intel. Was it ever reviewed?
Just my opinion based on my family’s IT skills
I would guess Terri was wrapped up in FB and online games
But not skilled otherwise
And I can’t understand why they didn’t look for Kyron or call his parents
When the chaperone missed him
Was this because kids were always running off to the bathroom or to get a drink of water with out telling anyone
Where they were going
“A large part of an investigation like this is eliminating people as suspects,” sheriff’s chief deputy Jason Gates said.
During the investigation of the other potential persons of interest, the team realized that some evidence — namely phone records and computer log-on information from Skyline School the day Kyron went missing — were not kept by the school district as the sheriff’s office didn’t request the preservation of those records.
Staton and Gates said they did obtain other information from the school via a search warrant submitted to Superintendent Carole Smith, but could not comment on the school phone records or computer data being preserved.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/06/kyron_horman_task_force_to_dis.html
************
“During the investigation of OTHER POI’s.” Other than Terri. Whomever they were/are investigating, it led them to school records. Which were no longer there, those being school “phone” records and “computer log-on records”. They were able to subpoena some other records, but not what they wanted, those were gone.
This was not to verify whether or not Terri emailed the teacher, the statement says they were investigating OTHER persons of interests at the time. If you read the line above that paragraph, it certainly sounds to me, that whomever it was, has not been “eliminated” as a POI. JMO
So, who left Skyline/Oregon on or around June, 2010… because B previously told us to pay attention to that.
(Not all confirmed)
1) Groundskeeper – Mexico. Changed timeline story, drives white truck, was on service road and at school on 6/4.
2) An Hispanic woman with two children. Possible retaliation for affair. Possibly RS family.
3) AnnP, Tanner’s aunt – Arizona. Her father SH is retired PPO and pilot with houseboat on SI and bears resemblance to MM.
4) RS – alias, whereabouts unknown
5) AS – whereabouts unknown
6) DAD – SI address, shoulder injury, psychosis, delusions and paranoia, running from LE
7) Colton Harris-Moore, “barefoot bandit” and fugitive. Just sayin’
Did anyone take a 6/2010 screen shot of the Skyline School admin page, to compare to today’s list?
@Malty. I love your thoughts.
If kids regularly went to bathroom alone
in Mrs Porter’s class, or even just a Kyron,
imo she should’ve been sacked — union, tenure and all.
Somehow Keefer supported her. Love to hear from
him why.
NelMel says: October 2, 2012 at 11:21 am
Great list of possible calls and emails to school during the week of the Science Fair. Giving everyone (school, LE) a huge benefit of the doubt regarding stored school data, why didn’t they at least have experts try to recover the deleted data. I am sure that at the very least the phone company could provide call records to/from school.
Lilacs says: October 2, 2012 at 1:48 pm
Well that’s convenient.