Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
Related Posts
Related Posts:
2,458 Comments
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
This was posted August 2010, but the field, as you will read was built twenty years ago.
snips>
The Portland elementary school west of the city on Skyline Road needed help if they were going to field a team of Kiddie soccer stars. The local field was all about baseball and completely sub-par for tykes learning how to kick a ball on grass.
Mark Pengilly, living just down the road on his Skyline acreage, didn’t give up on the hopes of a quality soccer field. With his son and so many others wanting to play, he dreamt of something better for the local area. With a clear vision and some serious land moving equipment, he carved out his “back 80” (yards!) and built his soccer “field of dreams”.
A short sixty-step jaunt down his home road leads to a quiet, tree-lined soccer pitch, replete with lines, full size goals, and……potential. Mark was proud of the work he put into creating the field (which includes more sand than Cannon beach, gravel-rock layers for excellent drainage and grass seed quality FIFA would be proud to grow).
After only a year of work, his field was ready. His son now had space to play and practice and Mark decided to further help the community by inviting friends on his stretch of Skyline to enjoy the open space.
He was excitedly learning the coaching trade and now had what any coach just imagines for themselves: a real pitch in their own backyard. He coached his son and decided to use his field during the summer months to help local kids develop their skills.
Twenty years ago, Mark started a summer soccer camp for the local kids. Held twice each summer for five days, he has coached a generation of Skyline children on his private pitch.
http://www.examiner.com/article/field-of-dreams-on-skyline
Nick Tebon of 3D Electrical Services installs solar panels on a detached residential garage in Southeast Portland this week.
Pengilly, who lives in Multnomah County near Northwest Skyline Boulevard, walked in with his eyes open. He’s a member of Oregonians for Renewable Energy Policy, an organization that lobbied the Legislature for the program
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2010/07/oregons_new_solar_program_fill.html
using for location purposes of that socceer field
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=1&xmldoc=19921921810FSupp1111_11749.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006&SizeDisp=7
Google Map NW McNamee Blvd Portland OR to see approx location of socceer field
Is this Cloud the same as my iPhone iCloud
Storage
I would ask Rudy ,were you upset someone wanted you to kill
That you called LE
Just in case the husband never made it home
That night
Rose says:
October 7, 2012 at 5:49 pm
(snipped)
@TRuth. I posted in the last couple weeks a url to PPB’s own regs stating PPB has jurisdiction over crimes on PPS property. I assume it was the product of City/County agreement when PPS built outside city boundaries.
that makes beaucoup sense.
Forgive me, Rose, somehow I missed that, do you still have the link? I live in a rural part of Oregon, and even though a local Police Department may be closer, my 911 call would go first priority to the county sheriff’s dept. So I’d be really interested in seeing that one.
@Malty. Based on one lecture only, and I know zip about IT, imo yes. It means nothing more than your phone vendor contracted with a server vendor, Amazon being the most prominent. For more, I defer to beejay’s husband. Or anyone in IT knows more than I, Not relevant imo if you don’t have proprietary confidences. Which imo PPS does. I was just wondering from TRuth if PPS moved to this storage (that’s all it is) before 6/4/10.
@mbS re “You’d think if there were that many Intel-related people around, they’d have known at least who Kaine was and that Terri was the red-headed wife of an Intel employee.” Agreed. But,. I’m not going to look for Intel Skyliners to see who knew them for good or ill. They were not involved on paper in pta activities, though parents with new babies often aren’t, nor on paper in community institutions, Grange, church, etc. Just the Body stuff for both. there were some Intel employees or retirees in school leadership and at the SciFr. One woukd expect they would be heartbroken for their co-employee’s loss.
@Blink. Looking forward to input on any issue Lea has written on.
January says:
October 6, 2012 at 2:34 pm
snipped:
I wish we knew what was going on with the Civil suit!! I wonder if James is gone by now.
_______________________________________________________
@January
James left for 2 months of basic training approx. 8/28
Malty says: October 7, 2012 at 9:47 pm
snipped:
“I would ask Rudy ,were you upset someone wanted you to kill
That you called LE Just in case the husband never made it home
That night”
———————
Good question, Malty, although we know the answer alrady don’t we? And that would be: Not so much.
Question, if LE is truly in CYA mode, then are they in support of Desiree’s civil suit, or would they prefer it was not happening?
I would assume that Skyline/PPS are not real happy with the lawsuit, since I’m also assuming many of them will be deposed about policy and procedures and whether or not they were followed that day, but I’m unsure about how LE is looking at this. Would Rosenthal be able to get whatever documents were recovered from the school from LE?
T. Ruth says:
October 8, 2012 at 11:24 am
Question, if LE is truly in CYA mode, then are they in support of Desiree’s civil suit, or would they prefer it was not happening?
I would assume that Skyline/PPS are not real happy with the lawsuit, since I’m also assuming many of them will be deposed about policy and procedures and whether or not they were followed that day, but I’m unsure about how LE is looking at this. Would Rosenthal be able to get whatever documents were recovered from the school from LE?
================================================================
It’s possible that this civil suit will draw out all those parties who do not want to talk or cannot talk. If that turns out to be a long list of potential witnesses that Rosenthal has to battle to have access to, how will that look?
TH has been accused of hiding something by not speaking to LE after the sting, yet that snowballed into accusing her of never cooperating prior to that, which she did.
Now, how will several others look if they fight having to answer questions concerning the civil suit? Will they have the same laser beam aimed at them, and more important to me, will the public even know who they are? If it’s ever revealed if any persons approached for depositions tried to find a legal way out of being deposed, and who those individuals are, I am very interested in learning who those people are. The other scenario of course, in a perfect world, is that everyone will willingly be deposed and no one will balk via their own attorney.
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/departments/information-technology/5896.htm#_Toc290987344
snipped from FAQ re technology – lots more at the link
When will PPSLive be available for use?
As of July 25, 2011, all PPS faculty and staff will use PPSLive as their new email system. To login to your new email, go to http://www.outlook.com. Remember to sign in with your new @pps.net email address.
Why are you making the change in the summer?
We sought the counsel of multiple advisory groups including principals, school-based technical support staff and instructional staff to make a decision about timing. During the school year was deemed to be less desirable than between school years. We hope that staff will get enough information before the end of the school year to plan for the change. We will have a lot of documentation available and roaming technicians at school start up (before students arrive back in buildings). We hope that having self-paced video and digital resources will make the transition less stressful.
What will happen to all my mail in GroupWise?
IT will move all mail from your GroupWise Inbox, Sent Items and Cabinet as well as your Calendar items and all Contacts in your Frequent Contacts (any personal groups you have created in GroupWise will also be moved). Tasks, Notes and Trash will not be moved.
Will I still be able to look at my GroupWise email after July 25th?
Yes, you will still have read-only access to your GroupWise mailbox until October 2011. To see your GroupWise mailbox, go to groupwise.pps.k12.or.us.
Sorry – forgot to include this from PPS FAQ’s Technology (remember this was new in 2011):
What is the District email archiving policy?
With the implementation of PPSLive, the District has adopted a new email archiving policy. All staff email will be archived for 3 years and a snapshot kept for 13 months after employment with the District ends. Trash folders will not be archived and may be auto emptied after a determined period of time. Every sent/received email including calendar items will be archived, meaning even if an email is deleted from a users’ email box, it can be retrieved. PPS IT will only perform this action for two reasons:
•
An individual user has accidentally deleted an email and needs it to be restored.
•
HR, Legal or Security Services request it as part of a District action.
What kind of files can I store in my SkyDrive?
You can store any kind of file including Office documents, pdfs, video and sound files.
Note: The SkyDrive is your online “personal flash drive” and should not be used as an official repository of files. Additionally, no files or documents with sensitive data should be stored on your SkyDrive. Examples of files you should NOT store on the SkyDrive:
•Student data like test scores
•Personnel information with sensitive data like social security numbers
•Medical data of any kind
Are the files on my SkyDrive backed up?
No. Files stored on the SkyDrive are not backed up. Make absolutely sure you have a duplicate of any important documents saved on your computer or another location. If you delete or lose a document stored on your SkyDrive, IT will not be able to retrieve it.
@TRuth. It was not fun finding again. I’ve tagged on Custodial Interference sect. no. BTW procedures like Towing get pages & pages in comparison. Also there’s a cite around p 250 saying PPB Detective Div should’ve been brought in Fri nite imo. This probable crime fits their list anyway. My posting of this url was back when I posted Newsletters of a remarkable head of School Resource Officers just as her Dept was being dissolved & her officers were being decentralized & attached to precincts. She has since gone on to further PPB leadership. If you read the policy below, I think this dispersion of SROs to precincts rather than having its own commanded division weakened safety & security in schools though no doubt precinct commanders and their officers would disagree. imo it was a budget decision & School Resource Officer Dept lost the political battle.
http://www.portlandonline.com/police/index.cfm?a=32482&c=29867
POLICY AND PROCEDURE
640.40 INVESTIGATIONS ON PUBLIC SCHOOL PROPERTY
Index: Title; Schools, Investigations and Interviews
POLICY (640.40)
When it is necessary to conduct an investigation or take a student or other person into custody at any school, members will attempt to keep the purpose of his/her presence confidential. Members will also contact the school principal or his/her representative before proceeding or taking action, unless such contact would impede the investigation, create a hazardous or dangerous situation, or allow a person to escape. Members will immediately notify their supervisor if such action is taken without notification of the principal.
PROCEDURE (640.40) Directive Specific Definitions
Public School Property: All property owned, rented, or leased by the school districts (David Douglas, Parkrose and Portland) for instructional, administrative, or support purposes.
Student-occupied school: An elementary, middle or high school that is designated by the school districts as being part of an identified school cluster and is used to instruct students.
School Police Division Responsibilities (640.40)
The School Resource Officers (SRO) at each precinct have primary responsibility for calls for service and the preliminary investigation of criminal acts that occur on student occupied property while on duty or during school hours.
The SROs are responsible for conducting follow-up investigations of misdemean- or criminal acts that occur on student occupied property during school hours.
Contract security personnel will make primary contact for after hour alarms and on weekends at school properties.
Bureau Member Responsibilities (640.40)
Precinct officers will be responsible for calls for service if SROs are off duty or unavailable. Bureau members responding to calls for service involving non- occupied buildings will be responsible for primary and follow-up investigation.
Follow-up investigations of felonies occurring on school property will be con- ducted by the appropriate detective unit.
Police Contacts on School Property (640.40)
Interviews with the students at a school may be conducted in the presence of the principal and/or a representative. Upon the request of a student (or if the member determines that the circumstances of the investigation make such presence inap- propriate), the principal and/or representative will not be present. A member taking a
-287-
640.31 CUSTODIAL INTERFERENCE
Index: Title; Custodial Interference
Refer: ORS 163.215 Kidnapping and Related Offenses Definitions
ORS 163.245 Custodial Interference II
ORS 163.257 Custodial Interference I
DIR 640.30 Investigations, Child Abuse
DIR 825.00 Domestic Violence, Arrests and Restraining Orders DIR 850.30 Custody, Juvenile Holds
DIR 850.39 Missing, Runaway, Lost or Disoriented Persons/Amber Alert
There was another cite, TRuth, because this doesn’t have exactly the same wording re schools’ locale, but I don’t know if I’ll keep looking.
The other one used some old fashioned name for the schools, I think Districe 1, and I asked locals what that meant
DistricT 1
2009 – 2010 directions for summer 2010
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/departments/information-technology/3455.htm
(snipped)
IT Summer Work
The IT Department will begin work this summer in on a number of new services being rolled out over the course of the next school year. In preparation for these new services, IT technicians will be visiting all schools over the summer to install software on nearly every Windows and Macintosh computer.
To help us with this effort, please do not disconnect your computers or bag them as you may have done in the past. Please leave all desktop computers set up where they currently are, and once IT staff have done their work, they will work with Facilities and prepare the computers for protection from maintenance activities as needed. Mobile computers can be secured as usual, but we do need to be informed on how to access this equipment (see below).
Equipment Guidelines
•The IT Dept will be working on all computers over the summer. Please leave desktop computers set up and plugged in to power and network. Do not bag them up or break them down. Please secure your laptops in a safe location at the site.
•The “Risk Management Equipment Checkout Form” is no longer valid or relevant, and it is not endorsed by either the Risk Management or Information Technology departments. If you had any copies of this form, please discontinue their use and recycle them.
•No computer is to be taken home unless a staff member has a portable piece of equipment (i.e. a laptop) assigned to him or her during the school year. This equipment is to be treated just as it is during the regular school year, and the equipment is the responsibility of the person to whom it is assigned.
•Please do not move Cisco VOIP phones. If the phone in your room needs updating or you are moving to another room at your site, please inform the secretary at your site and changes will be made as quickly as possible. The earlier you can get the changes to your secretary, the faster the changes will be made.
•If you are not taking a portable device home (laptop, etc.), make sure it is locked up or otherwise secured in your school.
•The following guideline applies to any building administrator assigned a District-supplied laptop.
NOTE: This policy has been revised, so please read carefully:◦If you are returning to the same site in the fall, please take your laptop home over the summer. If you choose instead to leave your laptop at school, please lock it in a secure location.
◦If you are transferring to a new site or leaving the district, please leave your laptop at your current school in a secured location (e.g. a locked cabinet or room). Each administrator’s laptop is assigned to the building and thus needs to stay in that building. Every laptop is equipped with a CD burner for you to use to back up your data, but if you need assistance with this process or with setting up the laptop at your new location, please contact the IT Service Desk at 503-916-3375.
•If you have computer equipment at your school that you no longer need, please review the eWaste Recycling Guidelines and submit a request as directed. Note that the summer pickup deadline is 6/11/2010, so anything set aside after that date will not be picked up until October.
Personal Wireless Device Policy
Due to concerns related to network stability, security administration and the confidentiality of student data, no wireless access points (WAPs) are allowed in schools unless installed by the PPS IT department. If you have brought and installed a WAP, please take it home over the summer and do not bring it back to PPS. If a personal WAP is detected by PPS IT, we reserve the right to treat it as a harmful device and block its access to the PPS network. Violations of this policy have caused numerous significant network outages in the last school year. PPS IT will be more proactive about finding and disabling these devices in the future.
Moving your copier
If you need to have your copier(s) moved over the summer (e.g., your program is moving to a new location), please let us know as soon as possible. We’ll also help determine whether or not the new location has sufficient electricity and network connectivity. Please contact the IT Service Desk at 503-916-3375 or itservicedesk@pps.net if you need to have your printer/copier moved.
Revised Computer Standards
The following computer standards will be in effect beginning summer 2010: TBD
TABLE LOCATED IN THIS SECTION WON’T COPY – SEE LINK if you want to see it
Staff X/Y Drives – Staff X and Y drives will be retained as-is and backed up over the summer. Please be SURE to move any data you want to retain from your local hard drive to your network department or home directory. Local hard drives are subject to any number of environmental factors (power surges, malicious usage, theft) that could result in data loss. Moving your data to a network drive will ensure the safety of your data. Typically, that data would live in your “My Documents” folder or on the Desktop. If you need assistance with backing up your data, please contact the IT Service Desk at 503-916-3375 or itservicedesk@pps.net. If your site does not have network servers for storage, please backup your data on CD, flash drive or other storage medium
Student Y Drives – Student Y drives/home directories (Novell and LTSP) will be archived and cleared over the summer. If any student wishes to retain their data, they should arrange to burn a CD, copy the data onto a flash drive or email themselves pertinent files. If schools would like help with communication strategies or storage mediums, please contact the IT Service Desk at 503-916-3375 or itservicedesk@pps.net.
NelMel says:
“It’s possible that this civil suit will draw out all those parties who do not want to talk or cannot talk”
I was just thinking the same about other parties not being happy.
The civil case and their testimonies will bring them into the public arena, whereas up to now they have been sheltered by the protection of the criminal investigation.
If anyone feels they have to plead the 5th in the case of a missing child, I don’t know how much understanding or sympathy I could garner, if any.
PS – I wonder when IT got around to Skyline to do the summer 2010 work …
Attendance records should never go away and many teachers I knew kept a back-up copy for themselves in case anything was ever questioned – especially in high school. What could be questioned? Whether a foster child had unexcused absences, whether a student missed a period when a fire in the bathroom garbage can was set – you name it, somebody would ask it. I hope LE and Grand Jury asked for individual teacher, counselor, and school nurse’s records and file notes as well as district data by subpoena.
Wow! Just look at the 2009 culture of Lincoln High across multiple coaches & sports.
I’d have gotten my son out too.
In the “History” section.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_High_School_(Portland,_Oregon)#
re: TH’s cooperation with LE
From KATU article dated July 23, 2010:
(snipped)
The Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office answered questions via e-mail Friday afternoon submitted to them by the media. The unedited questions and answers appear below.
(snipped)
“Weeks ago you said Terri Horman has been cooperating – is that still true? Kaine and Desiree have said otherwise.”
“During this investigation Terri Horman has been cooperative and there have been other times she has not. We cannot speak to specifics regarding this issue.”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/99143584.html
EUGENE, OR (KPTV) -
U.S. Marshals are trying to track down a suspected predatory child molester from San Diego.
Investigators say Frederick Cecil McLean fled Southern California eight years ago. The U.S. Marshals believe his crimes are heinous enough to have earned him a spot on their “15 Most Wanted” fugitive list in 2006.
Investigators said they have identified 17 victims of McLean. One of them, now an adult, said he assaulted her more than 100 times starting when she was 5 years old.
(snipped more @ link)
http://www.kptv.com/story/19763509/fugative-believed-to-be-in-oregon
more about McLean here:
http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=35566&refresh=1
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/wanted-recherches/sexu/mclean-eng.htm
Imo Rosenthal will try narrowly re custodial interference & try to limit to Terri & those around her (james, dede, gym rats) who heard her negativity to Kyron. those emails. like the Sandusky prosecutor who didn’t bring everything in but streamlined just enough to secure the absolutely proveable. Terri’s attorney will try to broaden, bring in PPS etc. I don’t see why Desiree’s or Kaine’s lifestyle history/weaknesses will come in, or anything to do with Rudy or PPS. I want to know Lea’s analysis.
What is the latest on when we can expect Part 2 to be posted ?
@Rose says:
October 7, 2012 at 7:16 pm
“Do I get this right? Kyron exited with an unknown male, not only bcz Terri was elsewhere,
but there were 1 or more witnesses, child or adult.
Investigative paths: That unknown male was
1) recruited by & collaborative with Terri, or
2) recruited by & collaborative with RS, for money or love or revenge, the latter most likely as he’d fallen out with Terri.
That means he could pass a poly on the money motive
He chose the perp, maybe from Anselmo’s prison contacts, in part due to the perp’s known sexual appetite.
3) drawn to Kyron as a sexual opportunity as a byproduct of a secret life of Terri
4) Desiree & Kaine & their families & associates are off the hook however dysfunctional
5) a highly organized pedophile sex offender targeted Kyron or targeted a demographic within the school, either a perp associated somehow with PPS, even if only dating a school parent, or not, a transient or from elsewhere. .”
————————————————————
Right on with all Rose! I would like your opinion tho.
Could Kyron have walked out the door with a total stranger he didn’t recognize although sz called him by name)? Or did Ky recognize sz when he called his name and left with him albeit reluctantly? When you consider RS & Assoc. did landscaping work at Skyline any one of RS’s workers could have become a familiar face to Kyron.
on the Scout list the attorney just posted (see Oregonian on line for story).
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Hollywood#section_4
Barred from Scout leadership, he just rises to the top in OR as Director of Civil Air Patrol’s
Cadet Program. There’s always a way. One on list was a sheriff’s Deputy in Or City.
(In NY Craig’s probably in charge of training Jr EMTs at the firestation.)
@January
Thanks for responding
In my mind Rudy shold have reported that
Someone wanted Kaine Horman dead to LE
as fast as he could get out his phone
That very day
And make sure Kaine had protection
He did not as far as we know
Regarding depositions of Skyline employees, etc.
It’s my understanding that if they testified in the GJ “pre-indictment” of 2010 that they were granted immunity. This would include Rudy, Kyron’s teacher, the principal, several of tmh’s friends, etc.
Therefore, I don’t believe they would have a problem with Eldon summoning them. But how about Houze?
Would we ever hear if Eldon or Steven H. had to “toss” potential depositions because LE said it would “hamper the investigation”?
Does LE have a “short list” of those they will not allow to be interviewed because of the “investigation”?
I ask these questions because I think that this whole messed-up case revolves around the release of and/or holding back of information by MCSO.
How can they justify releasing the “sexting” to KH, but simultaneously the GJ doesn’t even want to talk to Cook and Kaine withdraws his “contempt of court” regarding the “violation” of the spirit of the Restraining order as it has no “teeth”?
How can they justify releasing the “hate mails” to DH, but simultaneously disallowing her to be specific about what those emails really contain?
So…in hindsight…is MCSO legally justified in “arbitrarily” deciding what information and what witnesses can be accessed by deposition?
What restraints are placed upon an “investigative” entity in terms of how much they can thwart the access of information sought out by a Plaintiff?
Thanks for any insight.
vw
In a shortened question, what I was asking was, whether or not we can take LE’s non-response to this civil case as CYA or not??? And yes I’d love to hear more from Lea as well.
For real? Rudy is a bona fide PPS employee?
vw says:
October 8, 2012 at 9:14 pm
Regarding depositions of Skyline employees, etc.
It’s my understanding that if they testified in the GJ “pre-indictment” of 2010 that they were granted immunity. This would include Rudy,
“… almost every person reading here could find themselves in a similar set of circumstances to this woman and as a society we should all be very wary of how we react as a result.” Blink
This statement is completely freaking me out. Do you believe that almost every one of us could find ourselves in TH’s position? If she’s not behind Kyron’s disappearance, she’s done something so horrific that she has chosen to give up her baby daughter rather than fight for her and not help the police with Kyron because of the horror that could be revealed. Or are you minimizing the mfh plot? I admit that a mfh plot is tame compared to being involved in the disappearance of your step son, but what? I’m confused here. Remember the first press conference….how strange TH seemed, how strange it all seemed?
The kid is gone and she’s not talking. I’m missing a huge chunk of info if you think that most of us could find ourselves in a similar set of circumstances. I’m missing a chunk….a big one. No disrespect at all. My brow is furrowed.
Monkeybunny- if TH is not involved, yes, I definitely believe that any person could be put in a similar situation.
B
Cook didn’t testify to the GJury?
Now that is enlightening.
@MbS. In my experience in another state with 5-6 el ed & middles, public & private, summer IT is done in August. That’s when new hardware arrives & has to be unpacked & distributed and when software changes have been made for the new year.
@MbS. All very interesting. It all comes back to who was buying or donating Skyline’s hardware?
Who was wiping Skyline’s individual computer harddrives around the school
in the summer then putting in the cloning cd so every
computer at Skyline had the software Principal & staff decided on. I’ve physically watched this happen, indeed done my share under direction & supervision, at public & private. In a school like Skyline with a Foundation, grant apps, and tech leadership (maybe controlling) parents like Skyline, the school does its own thing & didn’t participate in the Memo regime. Personally I’d just ask Ben & Tim the story of Skyline’s hardware/software in 2010. I am surprised this District favors laptops, it seems. Of course the new world educational order is textbooks on ipads.
erose,
Not sure that Rudy was a Skyline employee though iirc very early on there was talk of such.
That Houze specifically has requested,formally, 911 calls during the MFH ‘sting” and wants to depose Rudy suggests that he is a major player. That LE won’t release those calls, and Rudy has testified for the GJ suggests that LE is protecting his involvement in the disappearance, if any, and has freed him of any responsibility of not coming to LE on his own during the 6-7 months of the potential “hits” on Kaine. LE did contact him in June….not the other way around….according the the breaking M. Bernstein story on July 4th, 2010.
Stating that his testimony was “credible” lead to the “probable cause” for the FAPA and R/O. A 911 “threat” call during the sting? From TMH. Who does that if they are culpable? TMH just doesn’t seem, IMO, to be that unflappable that she would anticipate and then deliver that ultimatum at the door. Given her “hysterical” reaction to the kidnapping according to James, and the stress she must have been under that first 3 weeks.
Rose says:
October 8, 2012 at 11:52 pm
Cook didn’t testify to the GJury?
Now that is enlightening.
—————————————————————
Why didn’t he?? Because he collaberated with KH (at possibly LE’s suggestion) to garner inflammatory info to further influence the negative public opinion against TH?
Good on that attorney!
The boy scout list to post if permissible:
http://kosnoff.com/BSA-perversion-by-name.pdf
Rose says:
October 8, 2012 at 6:40 pm
True dat.
B
Rose says:
October 8, 2012 at 1:04 pm
Wow! Just look at the 2009 culture of Lincoln High across multiple coaches & sports.
I’d have gotten my son out too.
In the “History” section.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_High_School_(Portland,_Oregon)#
————————————
Please don’t judge the whole school by this report. There were/are many great kids and staff members at Lincoln, particularly counselors that I know. I don’t remember anyone saying James was into sports – I doubt if he met these coaches or athletes. I don’t know why he didn’t attend, but being a Lincoln student has always involved a lot of pressure toward high academic achievement and a certain amount of conformity, high level classes, college prep activities, etc. Some deal with the pressure, some don’t, and some truly have other interests that are just as valid and could be developed in other programs. James could have transferred to another school if they had pushed for that – if Lincoln was the issue, he didn’t have to leave town to resolve it. I can understand how James didn’t connect with the “social scene” there, and given that, I have great respect for James’ choice to hang out at Powell’s instead of with the street kids downtown or the truant pot smokers, etc.
erose says:
October 8, 2012 at 11:23 pm
For real? Rudy is a bona fide PPS employee?
vw says:
October 8, 2012 at 9:14 pm
Regarding depositions of Skyline employees, etc.
It’s my understanding that if they testified in the GJ “pre-indictment” of 2010 that they were granted immunity. This would include Rudy,
————————————–
I don’t think RS was ever a PPS employee. If anything, it seems more like he did contract work.
Re the GJ – if you testify re a particular crime, you are granted immunity in return for not being able to refuse to testify (self-incrimination) like you can in criminal court. After doing a lot of research, my understanding is that if someone testifies and the DA comes back later and says they have proof that person committed that crime and the proof is TOTALLY independent of ANYTHING else said or presented at the GJ, then the immunity is questionable. This is very difficult to accomplish so avoidance of questioning someone you think may be guilty seems to be the usual choice.
It is also my understanding that the immunity is only related to the questions you were asked. For example, if someone were asked questions about Kyron’s case and then was found to have been selling drugs to an 8th grader on campus June 4th with absolutely no connection to Kyron’s case, they are not immune from prosecution just because they testified about the other case.
Please note – these are conclusions of mine after reading a lot about grand juries – some in Oregon and some in other states. This sort of thing isn’t exactly spelled out in plain language, and isn’t always the same in every state – so my advice is “don’t quote me”, but also “don’t bank on getting away with anything.”
limited use immunity is granted to anyone under OR statute testifying before the grand jury and is limited in scope to exactly what the individual testifies to under oath. That immunity only applies to truthful statements and is subject to perjury or impeachment, neither of which immunity would “extend.”
In some states, the prosecution is also entitled to use what is called an investigative subpoena, again, will have immunities attached, but when this is used you can pretty sure it is to gain a deposition on record, preserving the testimony, and sometimes in an effort to tie that individual to their account regardless of the direction of an investigation.
B
Monkeybunny says:
October 8, 2012 at 11:52 pm
“… almost every person reading here could find themselves in a similar set of circumstances to this woman and as a society we should all be very wary of how we react as a result.” Blink
Monkeybunny- if TH is not involved, yes, I definitely believe that any person could be put in a similar situation.
The kid is gone and she’s not talking. I’m missing a huge chunk of info if you think that most of us could find ourselves in a similar set of circumstances. I’m missing a chunk….a big one. No disrespect at all. My brow is furrowed.
————–
Maybe you should check out the JonBenét Ramsey case where the mother although innocent was vilified by LE for years even though like TH she did not have any obvious motive. I’ll bet she thought that something like that could never happen to her until it did.
IMO When people cannot figure out how a crime happened then they tend to actually create evidence from everyday occurrences or by seeing things through their own tinted lens of events construing everything about a persons every word and expression as proof their guilt. This the reenforces correctness of the accusers opinions. Unfortunately this has been going on since the witch trails of the middle ages.
almost every person reading here could find themselves in a similar set of circumstances to this woman and as a society we should all be very wary of how we react as a result.” Blink
*******
A very scary statement yet most likely true.
Lawyer posts names in Boy Scout ‘perversion files’
http://www.kgw.com/news/Lawyer-releases-Boy-Scout-perversion-files-173277471.html
Monkeybunny says:
October 8, 2012 at 11:52 pm
“… almost every person reading here could find themselves in a similar set of circumstances to this woman and as a society we should all be very wary of how we react as a result.” Blink
This statement is completely freaking me out. Do you believe that almost every one of us could find ourselves in TH’s position? If she’s not behind Kyron’s disappearance, she’s done something so horrific that she has chosen to give up her baby daughter rather than fight for her and not help the police with Kyron because of the horror that could be revealed. Or are you minimizing the mfh plot? I admit that a mfh plot is tame compared to being involved in the disappearance of your step son, but what? I’m confused here. Remember the first press conference….how strange TH seemed, how strange it all seemed?
The kid is gone and she’s not talking. I’m missing a huge chunk of info if you think that most of us could find ourselves in a similar set of circumstances. I’m missing a chunk….a big one. No disrespect at all. My brow is furrowed.
——————————————————————
Then why has TH not been charged and arrested yet?
She did not chose to give up her daughter. Her lawyer made it clear that custody issues will be revisited. If I were being accused of being a drunken whore sloshed on the sofa each night and being a suspect in the possible murder of my stepson, in a FAMILY COURT HEARING ABOUT CUSTODY, and I could not say a thing about those accusations without having a criminal case get ALL the advantages and my divorce lawyer not being able to get ANY discovery from LE, you can bet your life I’d clam up.
I would, if accused of something horrible such as killing my stepson, also stop talking and temporarily lose contact with my own child in order to take the chance that in time, when everything is resolved and revealed, that I can see my child again.
I don’t know who took Kyron or where he is. I simply will not blame TH automatically based on what has, to date, ONLY been rumors about her. NOTHING — absolutly NOTHING — about her character or behavior has been revealed as iron-clad evidence. For example, it IS possible that the “sexting” was a set-up and the phone transcripts presented in such a way that someone else could have been doing that sexting.
Sexual antics are not the sign of a child killer, by the way. If they were, a LOT of parents in this country are in big trouble, right now as I type.
And TH was talking to LE — a lot, and with LE in her home at the time of the early days of the case — before the MFH. I wish that the phrase “TH refuses to talk” would go away, because she did not refuse to talk in those crucial first weeks of the case. And we have NO idea what she said back then.
I would hire a lawyer too, if I were innocent. Guilty, of course I’d also have a lawyer. But innocent? I’d hire a lawyer so fast they’d have to measure wind velocity via the National Hurricane Center if I were innocent, and seemingly everyone I knew was telling this person or that person that I was a slimy alcoholic steroid-fueled slattern who hung out in thongs with batphones and hated my stepson with a passion.
The bottom line for me is I ‘gots nuttin’ about this case’s FACTS. Until I do, I cannot convict TH of anything, I cannot convict ANYONE of anything. TH might be guilty of the worst of the worst.
And, she might not be.
@Lyla. imo Kyron at his age and with his profile would have exited (with a request “go help me do x y or z”) with any male stranger or known male, reluctantly in mien with either stranger or known, and he’d have even been reluctant for goodness sakes to leave with a parent, not wanting to go out due to a vibrant table set before him in the school and/or not wanting to change routines, but he was predisposed by having an authoritarian father–who his sub mom’s take had just made older bro disappear. He was predisposed to follow a confident male’s directions not from attention/follow direction/listening issues, but from his father’s very personality and it’s impact on the family. This take veers from an RS cutout to a true SZ.
@MbS. Confident Lincoln is a fab academic school. Schools have cultures. My kids’ entire lax team it proved were drunks planning Smirnoff on game fields. The principal who ignored that also ignored her head of math coming to class drunk or high (a personal friend of hers in the culture.)
imo If there’s an issue in athletics, there’s one in academics. If only bcz most of those coaches teach math somehow. Our Calc teacher also did girls’ CC–flirted, gave them As. (Yet a great math teacher.) Terri moved fast, pulled kid;I didn’t. Chokes me to say she nailed it for James whatever her motive. .
Monkeybunny,
imo, you had a valid question with valid questions.
Many commentators here have posted the same and discussion has revolved around those same questions.
I appreciate Blink’s response:
“Monkeybunny- if TH is not involved, yes, I definitely believe that any person could be put in a similar situation.”
because she used the qualifying word “if”, as the great majority of us do not know for certain one way or the other.
fwiw, Monkeybunny, I don’t understand either why she has not fought for her daughter.
oh jeeze, typo in my post to Monkeybunny . . .
should have been:
“imo, you had a valid question with valid CONCERNS.”
Rose says:
October 9, 2012 at 10:42 am
“The principal who ignored that also ignored . . . ”
————————
You nailed it right there, Rose. Although there can be parent pressure, community expectations, traditions, unions, etc. etc. etc., the principal has a tremendously important role in protecting and educating every student in his or her school – and that included Kyron.
@Rose, Thank you, I didn’t mean for you to have to go through so much trouble. Just hoped you’d have the link *handy*.
I’m thinking, and it’s just my humble opinion, that the only way PPB was going to be in charge of Kyron’s case, is if MCSO asked them to, which IMO they should have, or at the very least teamed up immediately. We saw that that did not happen, not until MCSO requested their help in the form of the Task Force.
I’m still wondering where the SRO was the day Kyron went missing? Was she at the funeral? Did someone know she’d be at the funeral and not hanging around Skyline or Lincoln High that day, both of which were her cover. Seems to me an *open door* event at an elementary school, would certainly be one of those events the presence of a PO would be in order. Just one more little thing that could have possibly changed the events of that day. AMOO