Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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@January. More telling than Court calendar is that Kaine and/or “anonymous source” are not doing pre-trial human interest stories with journalists, Kyle was it on TV and Lynn on OLive.
imo that says settlement maybe gag order to me.
@Rose
Well it seems odd Kaine went in and took
Kiara and some stuff but never said why
Unless he was afraid to upset her
That MFH happened some time before if it did
I can’t imagine going about life as usual after asking some one to kill your husband
What if it happened at home in the drive way
In front of company
At the gym
I mean I would be living in terror
What about the kids seeing
This was a serious situation if it happened
As RS said
Blink says:
November 10, 2012 at 9:46 pm
(snip)
“… she comes home to the empty house and immediately realizes Kaine and Kiara are gone…”
____
The above scenario is one that was in my thoughts when I commented there are questions I have regarding TMH’s email:
“You were really upset with me when you left.”
It’s possible the email to KH was to “feel” him out AND/OR like a 911 call, an email is “recorded”.
btw, June 26th 2010 email of a friend to another friend:
“Terri called me this afternoon a couple of hours after I talked to Kaine. Said she was having a bad day – - that she and Kaine had a fight. She was driving. Then said she noticed a detective following her and had to go.”
1:42 time mark intro to email(s)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxA05bPoREg
I have a question regarding the release of Dede Spicher’s deposition. Because hers was released publicly, does that mean all depositions in this civil case are now fair game under the FOIA?
I would like to know who released it and why no others have been. What was the intent of releasing this one to the public?
Technically, yes. As long as they are filed with the court.
B
Regardless of opinions about TJones or his “theories”, in the following comments he (or someone using his computer/UserI.D.) made on September 16, 2010 regarding RS being discussed at TH’s 40th b-day party, this info came from “someone else”, imo. In other words he didn’t just make it up off the top of his head, imo.
(note: I found this posting a while back when searching for who all organized the party and before I stumbled across the new FB re DDS)
A nice Monkey posted this on September 16, 2010:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8508.500
****
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1170793/pg70
TOM JONES
User ID: 1060460
9/16/2010 5:12 AM
“What Dede has heard about Rudy Sanchez (RS) from Terri ;
She said that neither Terri or herself are convinced RS did something with Kyron but can see possible motive and opprotunity on his part.
According to Dede sometime around last fall Terri told her that Kaine was continuing to pressure her to get more done around the house and property and that Terri was thinking of hiring a landscaper.
Then later at the birthday party in march Terri told her that she had hired a landscaper and that he had assaulted her in a sexual manner. Terri then talked to her about RS trying to contact her afterwards by phone one morning while she was with a friend from the gym eating at a IHOP.
This friend was also at terris birthday party, Terri had told her about RS and what had happened so she took the call for Terri and basically told RS to piss off and to quit calling and leave Terri alone.
According to Dede when she stayed with Terri she told her more about her interaction with RS.
Terri told the investigators about RS and what had happened, they left and investigated RS.
He then later showed up at Terris trying to extort the 10G, which turned out to be the botched sting.
According to Dede they both suspect RSs motive could be that his ” machismo” was insulted when Terri rejected his advances and theorize that RS may have taken Kyron as revenge.
Considering his past record with children and his knowledge of the school grounds and operation, he would be comfortable there and if seen would be able to explained his being there rather easily because he had worked there.
They theorize when LE investigated RS infront of his family he came up with the MFH proposal of him by Terri, and then didn’t have much choice but to play along with the sting operation set up by LE.
He had to to save his own skin and keep his family, who is now unaccounted for. What happened to them and where is Rudy Sanches?
Hummmmm……..”
****
From the above post and various articles, I’m seeing contrasts between a romantic relationship vs unwanted advances, March vs May.
“You were really upset with me when you left”
referred, I believed, to his departure with Kiara from tge home
tgat Sat. and it preceded
her departure for the poly. They had words and he took off. Because
the sting came when she arrived home from the poly,
and Kaine was not there.
I assumed their words were, from her point of view, her telling him
she might not go thru with the poly, might walk out again, etc.
to add . . .
The relationship between TH and RS also is referred to by Rackner in a legal filing where she says words to the effect the sexts TH sent to MC are similar to the ones TH sent to RS, according to what KH said LE told him.
Well, if national security experts like CIA Dir & the national security expert, the Broad, didn’t pay attention to letting it all hang out in email, if there’s anything to be had on Terri or others, wrt Kyron, my bet is they didn’t self-censor their emails either, & it should all be there.
@Malty. I’d be right there with ya, in thinking Kaine could have been truly afraid at first, if not for his immediate actions. The r/o was advised, or did Kaine just happen to remember r/os from his first “separation” from Desiree? The divorce written up that very weekend? His phone number of his new place on the last page of the r/o? The r/o I can see, but not the divorce papers unless divorce had been on him mind much prior to the MFH sting.
But then, much of Kaine’s consequent behavior over the the next year could not be termed as overly rational. And rightly so, if indeed the shock and fear of losing a loved child were his true and only motivations for what he said and did over the next months, and there was no prompting of said behavior by LE.
@Blink….agree on your assessment of this LE. A case of this import requires the best. And as the presser with Bobby and Underhill on the white truck revealed, they couldn’t even get times right.
Here is a report from our neighboring state, Washington. It is the statistical reasearch of an abducted child, what to look for, who the perp is likely to be, how to conduct a search for an abducted missing murdered child. As is evident right away in this case, the very first mistake was to look too long for a missing child, deny for too long that he could have been abducted and killed, and not look for clues that would follow a perp.
http://www.atg.wa.gov/ChildAbductionResearch.aspx#.UKAF5_letkU
@Blink, Lea. Will Desiree in her civil suit be able to subpoena all TM emails & texts back to 2009?
recovered from phone & computer? those anyway mentioning names Kyron or Kaine or sent to or recd from RS or DDS or broader list of friends? TM was one to let it all hang out on line while thinking it private. Will DY be able to obtain?
Short answer: No. Not any of the authenticated version, at least. It would not be released from LE as part of an ongoing investigation.
I do not believe LE has ever returned access to her home computer ( or Kaine’s and hers) and I don’t see how much correspondence that was sent/received on a shared device has much value.
B
According to this School Board document, there was a a math/science teacher at Skyline who I never saw on the lists of teachers before: He was listed as a temporary instructor, his term listed below, just 3 months.
Durkin,Thomas J Skyline K-8 Teacher-K8 Gr 6-8
Math/Science
1.00 1/19/2010 3/29/2010
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/files/board/2009-2010_Action_Minutes.pdf
It says grades 6-8, but I just had never seen this name before on any of the Skyline teacher rosters, have you guys?
If I’m looking at the same guy on linkedin he’s now employed here:
Tom Durkin
Healthcare Business Consultant at O-HITEC
Portland, Oregon Area | Information Technology and Services
Current:
Healthcare Business Consultant at O-HITEC
Past:
Outreach Coordinator at O-HITEC, Consulting Intern at Oregon Health Information Technology Extension Center, Teacher Mathematics and Physical Sci…
anyway, just passing along something I’ve never seen before.
Desiree Young has been intensely focused on those emails and the implied legal aspect imo of “she put it all in writing”.
I tend to believe Rosenthal and team will find a way to bring them in to the civil case, possibly through the recipients or other.
Page 6 has picture of Tom Durkin
http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-medicine/departments/clinical-departments/dmice/about/news/upload/DMICE-Tracks-Summer-2011.pdf
ose says:
November 11, 2012 at 11:53 am
“You were really upset with me when you left”
referred, I believed, to his departure with Kiara from tgether home
tgat Sat. and it preceded
—————
IMO
I think Kaine was told about the sting ahead of time and he was advised to take Kiara and not be present during the sting. Since LE expected to be leading TH away in handcuffs Kaine may not have wanted Kiara to be present when TH was arrested which is what I think LE and Kaine expected to happen.
I have always thought Kaine took Kiara and left before TH got back from her interview with LE that day. Kaine must have thought he could return home after TH was taken into custody.
When the sting went wrong then Kaine had to decide what to do next.
I think at that point LE advised Kaine to stay out of the home LE anticipating/hoping that TH (left alone in the house) would do or say something that would give LE enough evidence to arrest her anyway.
I am looking at the plaid shirt picture (sorry) blown up, with new perspective. Behind the little girl, it looks like a female, and we are viewing her right side, right arm, right hand. She is bent at the waist leaning forward.
http://www.nurturepdx.org/2010/06/spread-the-word-missing-child-kyron-horman/
dude, plaid shirt guy
B
Rose says: November 10, 2012 at 9:49 pm
“@January. More telling than Court calendar is that Kaine and/or “anonymous source” are not doing pre-trial human interest stories with journalists, Kyle was it on TV and Lynn on OLive.
imo that says settlement maybe gag order to me.”
——-
Rose, Are you saying that there probably isn’t going to be a hearing because they may have reached a settlement? A settlement wouldn’t surprise me, especially if they BOTH could keep their dirty laundary out of the public eye. But what do you mean by a gag order? It does seem very odd that there are not more articles about their upcoming (once) hearing date for their divorce, though. If there is a settlement and/or some sort of “gag order” wouldn’t that in itself be news?
There have been times when I wonder if Terri didn’t know the sting was in fact a sting. She knew LE was following her, the poly didn’t go well, she and Kaine had been fighting and he wasn’t home when she returned. Then, out of the blue, here comes RS. With all this going on and especially with Kyron newly missing, it would have seemed…strange… that he suddenly appeared demanding 10K for a MFH plot, maybe even surreal. Whether she had actually tried to hire him or not, she must have known by then that LE was starting to look at her. If she was quick on her feet, she may have put two and two together. Maybe she was just quick enough to play a game of chess, so to speak. Calling 911 would have been a brilliant move.
Authorities deemed the landscaper’s account credible and serious, and they shared it with Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, the same afternoon of the undercover operation.
The landscaper’s account prompted Kaine Horman to leave his wife and take their 19-month-old daughter. Within two days, he obtained a family law attorney and filed divorce papers and a petition for a restraining order against his wife.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/landscaper_wore_wire_asked_ter.html
Has Tanner’s account been edited? I have to wonder why someone posted this after reading Blink’s article and listening to Tanner and his grandmother on the video.
Liam says:
June 23, 2010 at 1:23 pm
I find it an odd coincidence that the “substitute” was at school Monday-Thursday but not on the Friday. Has there been an explaination for this?
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/06/23/new-clues-in-kyron-horman-search-fact-or-fiction-you-decide/comment-page-2/#comments
wpg says:
November 11, 2012 at 11:43 am
Regardless of opinions about TJones or his “theories”, in the following comments he (or someone using his computer/UserI.D.) made on September 16, 2010 regarding RS being discussed at TH’s 40th b-day party, this info came from “someone else”, imo. In other words he didn’t just make it up off the top of his head, imo.
(note: I found this posting a while back when searching for who all organized the party and before I stumbled across the new FB re DDS)
A nice Monkey posted this on September 16, 2010:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8508.500
****
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1170793/pg70
TOM JONES
User ID: 1060460
9/16/2010 5:12 AM
————-
After reading some of this persons (seems like) 100+ postings on on OL in a 1 day span of time (and he says some really strange stuff) it is my opinion this guy is a complete looney-toon. I would not take anything he has to say or has ever said seriously. JMO
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/10/terri_hormans_friend_dede_spic.html
Check out the over 900 comments if they are still there.
I think all relevant emails should come in, but without the forensic report how can anyone know it’s “all,”
especially without the computer?
I doubt Terri’s primary correspondence was text & facebook.
More probably “private” correspondence was email.
I think Kaine & Terri’s writing styles would differ.
Kaine can say what he wants under oath about who used the computer.
and then it’s he said/she said, and the jury judges credibility.
I’d seen Durkin before but didn’t know his outcome.
He fits the bill for “the substitute,” tho it was long term
subbing. Can’t remember if he was on The List.
nice things out there about Durkin & wife online
If TM gossipped about RS finding her desirable & rejecting him (imo to stoke her ego)
at gym & Ihop & significant party, I bet he did the same trash talk in his circles, maybe
resulting in Beejay’s once removed associate’s interests.
If no mfh arrest & all expected it, imo RS may have a credibility problem with a potential jury.
erose says:
November 12, 2012 at 2:49 am
I agree with you 100%, except that I cannot be sure male or female. But the positioning you describe is right on. Person is bent over, not standing erect. This is NOT the picture the mayor tweeted, just saying so there’s no confusion.
“We now have information that shows us that Terri is very capable and most likely hurt him,” she says. “She put it all in writing and we have seen all of it.”
Her husband, Tony Young, who has investigated similar cases of missing children as a Medford police detective, blames Horman, too.
“We’ve had a million conversations to get to where we are today,” he says. “It’s hard to talk about.”
(snipped)
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/05/kyron_hormans_mother_desiree_y_2.html
************
Doesn’t the fact that she and Tony have already been shown these emails by LE make it fair game for Wagner/Bunch/Houze to get them as well?
Can’t wait for part 2 & 3 to clarify some of this stuff.
I know I asked this before but does anyone know if this is true? Did Kyron have a separate math class, with a teacher different than Porter? If true, anyone know who the teacher was?
(snipped):
Even in Sunday’s rain students came by the car load to answer questions from authorities. Andrew Delzell was one of the students interviewed; he and Kyron are in the same math class.
“He doesn’t seem like the person that would want to run away,” Delzell told KATU Reporter Adam Ghassemi. “He’s a nice kid. He plays with his friends a lot. I’m not sure if he’d ever run away.”
Delzell’s mother, Kris Delzell, also was at Friday’s crowded science fair.
“It’s horrifying. It’s absolutely horrifying,” she said. “…The dogs and the rescue people are coming through my yard, because we live close to where they’re searching. FBI people are interviewing us and [there are] police cars. We’re very shaken up.”
http://www.katu.com/news/local/95734359.html
Former Portland police officer pleads guilty to receipt of child pornography: http://bit.ly/TF1JWG
@Blink. I think you once recommended a professional Communicator for Desiree to public.
Or maybe it was Kaine or Terri.
I was very impressed with resume of a Judy Smith, crisis communicator, hired by an upper middle class housewife from Fl who hit the news this weekend. I didn’t know this profession existed, & it is a good one. (Why didn’t Spanier think of Smith/Lowell if a housewife did?) Anyway professional liaison with public & media would’ve served bios well imo, better than self-management & a good use for Foundation $ to get media coverage & mcso accountability in 2010. or now. .
wpg says:
November 11, 2012 at 11:43 am
From the above post and various articles, I’m seeing contrasts between a romantic relationship vs unwanted advances, March vs May.
——————–
I guess if it turns out she did send him “sexts”, it would make the “unwanted advances” description questionable.
T. Ruth says:
November 11, 2012 at 11:34 am
I have a question regarding the release of Dede Spicher’s deposition. Because hers was released publicly, does that mean all depositions in this civil case are now fair game under the FOIA?
I would like to know who released it and why no others have been. What was the intent of releasing this one to the public?
Technically, yes. As long as they are filed with the court.
B
———————————–
I had same question. Thought maybe DeDe’s was available because it became part of the challenge filed in regard to her use of the 5th. If the depositions can be requested under FOIA, I’m amazed we haven’t seen the one from James, at least. Of course, maybe they are not required to officially file them until it’s time for the next court hearing to determine how to proceed – Blink says “as long as they are filed with the Court”.
@mbs. imo you are right.
DD’s was filed as part of plaintiff
motion to compel.
@January. Remember that Staples ceo divorce where the wife recently tried to get the original gag order lifted so transcript of Romney testimony could go public, yet wife herself still could not comment at all.
I would think a gag order on spouses would extend to settlement hearing & settlement terms.
Well, I looked at OLive just now (TY, cd). Maxine closed comments finally after days of bizarreness.
imo perhaps a new article is percolating.
Eagerly awaiting Pt 2 & 3 here as I consider Blink a better journalist.
There was a great npr interview this afternoon of a writer (A Solomon?) by Teri Gross of his book on parents of different children including criminals. example was Dibolds of Columbine. But he went down a list of how parents of each subtype ( ie autistic, schizophrenic, criminal, etc) have been demonized historically. It was very interesting.
Of course I associated in this case to the demonization of Moultons, of Teri’s birth mother, of Hormans (viz Kristian’s grandparent molestation), of Desiree (for 2 sons’ custody with dads), of DD’s father, etc. The npr program is worth a listen prob on their website.
I hadn’t seen Rosenthals motion to compel DDS. (Thanks to Scared Monkeys for posting.)
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Spicer+Horman+5th.pdf
@MbS I think you are probably right, the deposition was attached to the Motion to Compel that Rosenthal filed, therefore, her deposition became public.
on OR radio no less
http://www.kqed.org/radio/programs/index.jsp?pgmid=RD20
idk about whole thing as I only came in when discussing criminal children
cd says:
November 12, 2012 at 5:59 am
“After reading some of this persons (seems like) 100+ postings on on OL in a 1 day span of time (and he says some really strange stuff) it is my opinion this guy is a complete looney-toon. I would not take anything he has to say or has ever said seriously. JMO”
cd,
You are without question entitled to your thoughts and opinion on this fellow, and I respect that.
I do/did a “read and weed” of past comments from both the cousin and the friend, and personally find some credibility in that they both support each other at times with their comments, and both appear, imo, to have received information from DDS to post publicly on her behalf.
jmo, his “theories” and speculations on this case are another matter . . . and well, who that have been following the disappearance of Kyron doesn’t have one or several theories/speculations?
Sure, he expressed his on OLive both flat out and criptique, and a in-your-face kind of a way, but hey, to each his own.
And to each his own whether they find some credibility or no credibility in his comments, or the comments of the self-described Fly-friend of DDS.
My area of interest and hope lies with the moving of this case of a missing little boy to court and currently with its depositions and witnesses.
It’s possible, imo, the web comments made in the past on various sites, could play a role.
I admit I have not read but a few comments, and I am no sucker for the cryptic with the big arrow to his facebook, but when someone publicly posts they are speaking on behalf of LE, and then says they are a 3rd suspect, not only am I concerned about motivation, but I am concerned of exactly what you opine…
That is has really nothing to do with finding this child.
That said, I think you and I are at a different place (as is the case with many readers here) in our opinions as to involvement, so that is a factor.
B
sorry, it’s Klebold.
http://www.kqed.org/radio/programs/index.jsp?pgmid=RD20
parents of criminals section @ roughly 28:00. Best is 31:00-33:00 .
@TRuth, I could be wrong, but I see effeminate posture, details (such as the way the shirt wrinkles at the waist). Blink, said “plaid shirt guy, but when she calls us “dude” I know she could be kidding. There is also what looks to be hair (indicating very long hair) on the left side of the person’s body. You are right, though, can’t be sure about gender. And NO this is not “mystery man.”
Both photos (not trying to start anything, dudes)
http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-1143-kyron_horman_update_man_spotted_in_photo_from_stepmoms_facebook_page.html
I can’t see the first photo on that link-
Y’all are effing with me again, I can tell, lol.
B
According to this account, KH learned of the mfh in the afternoon of the sting. Does this mean KH left the house with Kiara after an argument, then TH left, then KH returned and was notified , then KH left, then TH returned to an empty house? or did KH leave the house and LE notified him some place else?
erose says:
November 12, 2012 at 4:40 am
Authorities deemed the landscaper’s account credible and serious, and they shared it with Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, *****the same afternoon***** of the undercover operation.
@Rose, His original crime was diminished.
• On March 29, Portland Officer Scott Elliott (#17887) was arrested for “luring a minor and online sexual corruption of a child.” Elliott works on the Bureau’s task force to check on registered sex offenders. He was caught in a sting by an officer posing as a youth (KATU-TV, March 30).
http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/PPR56/pervocops56.html
If TH was in a treatment program in ’06, it’s possible that it lasted a year with another year follow up at AA. That could go into 2008, with counselors and other addicts aware of her personal and family situation.
Diane says:
June 23, 2010 at 2:17 pm
3. Terri was found guilty of a DUII and Reckless Endangerment of Another Person in 2006. She completed a Diversion program with a drug/alcohol treatment program called LifeWorks.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/06/23/new-clues-in-kyron-horman-search-fact-or-fiction-you-decide/comment-page-2/#comments
There is a redness around Kyron’s eyelids, especially the right side of the photo.
I can’t tell if it’s because the photo has been photoshopped to remove his glasses, or he was crying shortly before school started.
I recall Desiree saying something about Port Wine Stain birthmark when Kyron cries.
erose says: November 12, 2012 at 2:49 am
T. Ruth says: November 12, 2012 at 12:09 pm
—–
I also agree 100% ..Thanks for the blow up erose. To me, it clearly looks like a woman’s frame. It looks like she is bending forward in the oposite direction of the little girl. I’m not sure, but I also think I can make out some long dark hair at the top of her shirt as well. The other man in question didn’t look like he had a plaid shirt on to me. (sorry Blink
No worries
B
T. Ruth says: November 12, 2012 at 12:51 pm
—-
Not sure about Kyron, but when my kids were in elementary school, the teacher divided the kids into three groups for reading and math, according to their ability. For an hour 3 times weekly, they would go off to other classrooms for their lessons. Maybe Skyline did the same.
I wouldn’t expect praises from TH about DY, so if we can get past that comment, and assuming such a questionnaire exists, what does this say about Ecker. (I assume Tarver let go a long time ago.)
Domsmom says:
June 24, 2010 at 3:47 am
Wow, Blink, this all feels right. Option #1.
Secondly, I read somewhere, can’t remember where, a questionnaire filled out by Terri somewhere and it had multiple questions regarding their relationship and silly questions including their worst exes. Don’t ask me why. Her answer was basically Kaine had a nutjob for an ex and I had an ex who would never let go. I could probably find if you would like it.
I’m personally opting for unrequited romantic interest theory. I thought it was SM in the beginning, i’m starting to lean another direction.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/06/23/new-clues-in-kyron-horman-search-fact-or-fiction-you-decide/comment-page-4/#comments
I found some interesting stuff about one of the main Terri Horman and Dede Spicher cyber bullies. I read the Oregonlive and KATU reports about the murder also.
http://scamgirlpartdeux.blogspot.com
http://www.katu.com/news/local/19582919.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2009/04/canby_man_gets_40_years_in_rob.html
http://archives.molallapioneer.com/ARCHIVES/Story.aspx/6784/mulino-murder-case-closes
@rose
Correct, attached to a filing within the court.
Blink,
I may have been sandwiched again between posts
. . . comments still in moderation from November 12 6:23pm.
Thank you.
My bad, you are up friend
B
erose says:
November 13, 2012 at 4:18 am
I wouldn’t expect praises from TH about DY, so if we can get past that comment, and assuming such a questionnaire exists, what does this say about Ecker. (I assume Tarver let go a long time ago.)
——————–
@erose – this is what I have always thought about Ecker – either he was a total pushover for anyone who wanted his money (I doubt) or he was totally smitten with Terri before her first marriage and after theirs ended. I do not believe he had anything to do with Kyron’s disappearance, however.
IIRC – The questions Terri answered were on her FB page from an online survey she found or someone sent her – sort of the equivalent of those magazine surveys a lot of us filled out as giggly teens. She may have thought DY was a “nut job” because Desiree thought she and KH were still working on the marriage when Kaine had moved on to someone new – her. She probably also knew how depressed Desiree became for awhile. Her view of Desiree would have been based on Kaine’s view.
@wpg. To be honest, I don’t think web comments from any source would be submitted into evidence by any attorney in DY’s civil or in a criminal case. And imo the last thing an attorney will do is call someone like TJ whose credibility would be so easily impeached by his own words and who has zero really to contribute forensically. . If he was deemed relevant, FBI would long ago walked out of his home with cartons & computer.
While I feel he is seriously disturbed, and it is unfortunate he has public forums, that is true about many who feel they “have the truth” on both sides of the aisle. Even very psychotic people may have pockets of factual lucidity. But keep in mind this Calif man, who allegedly killed his wife he says, had no ongoing relationship with the Spichers. He’s just someone else with a theory, like Alternative or Ruthie or many more. And people with passionate theories find ” facts” to fit the theories.
Was that allegation re the wife made somewhere I am not aware of?
B
Blink replies
November 12, 2012 at 6:23 pm
“I admit I have not read but a few comments, and I am no sucker for the cryptic with the big arrow to his facebook, but when someone publicly posts they are speaking on behalf of LE, and then says they are a 3rd suspect, not only am I concerned about motivation, but I am concerned of exactly what you opine…
That is has really nothing to do with finding this child.
That said, I think you and I are at a different place (as is the case with many readers here) in our opinions as to involvement, so that is a factor.
B”
Blink,
You mean the big arrow to facebook with the flashing lights?
I have noooo desire to go and check it out, none, zippo.
Am curious (like others) and concerned why DDS plead the 5th in the case of a missing child. To be clear, I would have the same concerns regarding ANYONE taking the 5th in the case of a missing child.
I brought up only SPECIFIC “past online/public posts” that APPEAR to be made in concert with DDS where acknowledgement of TH and things-TH seemed not to be an issue back then but are an obvious issue now.
In terms of “involvement”, I don’t know, which is why I await the hearing on the motion to compel to perhaps begin some shedding of light to DDS’ reason(s) for invoking.
Blink, you clearly have information unknown to me, specifically regarding the male seen with Kyron. Without more information such as a description, I’m at a loss.
Because vw stated she is a local school-parent I inquired if she personally followed up with LE on this sighting for the same reason that I am at a loss and looking for additional input.
And, like others, I am interested in Part 2, re the school and revelations about that morning.