Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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@wpg. TY for refresher.
What I wanted to ask Blink, but was reluctant to press for more
was for a refresh on which 2 classrooms Neighbor said
had middler IB displays, including the electrical one.
Part 2
B
@erose. having been to years of el ed open houses
for parents during school day whether sci fair , book fair & sales,
other expos, field days, in Small schools Skyline size in public
& private, as an active
volunteer often there in the day, my own experience is
an unrecognized parent or relative or stranger would go unremarked.
You’re minding your child’s business, and you assume strangers
to you belong to someone. They are not attended to unless smelly,
ragged, with bags, asking for directions, imo.
have we ever gotten a better SZ theory
than beejay’s “once removed” from the LS?
@TRuth, Blink once said, (paraphrasing) one white truck parked in the back and TH’s on the shoulder. Well, that exit would support Kyron leaving in a white truck, and being near a white truck, and maybe even a kid in the gym seeing an almost identical white truck, and getting confused.
@TRuth, Looking at the school photograph you posted, wouldn’t it be possible that the path was out of that exit, under the covered play area and into the white truck. Hardly noticable.
We have lots of pumpkin patches and lots of Christmas tree farms around here. People go to one or the other for various reasons. SI has a corn maze, some have petting zoos. Christmas trees, too. — Different kinds of things to attract business.
@T. Ruth says: November 15, 2012 at 1:08 pm
@erose says: November 15, 2012 at 5:25 am It appears that the Horman family used to visit a different pumpkin patch, on SI? I think it was, can’t remember now, but I wondered why they wouldn’t instead visit the patch of a former Intel employee who also has a son who attends Skyline with Kyron, which is also much closer to their home.
Just thinking of all the fun stuff – holidays, events – that little guy has missed in the past two years is SO sad. I keep hoping against hope that somebody gave him to a family who thought they would give him a happier life; don’t even want to think about a PERVERT getting his hands on Kyron, or anything worse happening to him. He did absolutely NOTHING to deserve any bad thing happening. But no little child does, and look at all the horrid things that go on. I wish desperately that there was a way to protect the children who are put in harm’s way.
At least if he was with someone, there’s a chance of happiness for him. Sorry to editorialize, but this is just almost too sad to bear – even worse for his family, I’m sure.
Blink…feel free to lop off that last paragraphy regarding being silenced, K???
Gracias
wpg says:
November 15, 2012 at 4:58 pm
jeepers, just noticed this particular school exit/entrance door:
Kyron’s classroom is #213.
Looking at the floor plan there are stairs at the end of the long hallway – – past the front entrance and the gym, at the end of Room #201.
school layout/floor plans image:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8203.40
Doing a rotate at this link will show the side and the entrance (same side as the gym and the other door further down):
http://binged.it/StVLGz
Also noticed on the floor plan, directly across from Kyron’s classroom door is a short hallway leading past Rooms #215/217 to a door at the end that opens to a shorter hallway “space” that leads to the door of the Mechanical Room. Don’t know if the Mechanical Room has a door to the outside.
*******
Thanx for the links, Wpg. Did you notice how far Kyron would have had to have walked to get to where LE said the white truck was parked, or could have been. On your map it would have been parked near where the little white car was, in front of the office.
Or it would have been parked at the gate that separates the access road from the soccer field.
Since LE says Kyron was last seen in front of that hallway, if TMH had a “plan” for him to meet her at the truck the distance is VERY far for a 7y/o to walk alone.
Even if he’d remembered what she told him in said above scenerio, how could he have gone that distance in either direction, alone and not be stopped by the principal, not be seen by the lawnman, not be noticed by kids coming in from the flower beds or playgrounds. A 7y/o going alone in the opposite direction in which others are walking?
Which is why I think that that door in the gym, open to the inner playground, was how he left the school. Who would know they could park there and effect a quick getaway. If it were a perp from the camp nearby or a walk-in perp that day, would they put 2 n 2 together so fast? Maybe if they came early and scouted?
Just thinkin’
But TMH is not a mastermind at all to set up that plan. Or she was the luckiest person alive that he was walking a block to meet her in either direction and not be noticed when the tardy bell was ringing?
Just between us….i don’t think “lucky” is a word i’d levy on her right about now.
erose says:
November 15, 2012 at 4:30 pm
Me too!!!
I think back at Stacy Wilmoth’s abduction, she went out of the school with someone she didn’t even know. Why????? IMO, because she was AT school. Had she been let’s say at the movies, she would probably have known better. It all makes me go back to Kaine & Desiree’s conversation about how Kyron was coached to stranger danger, but (at some point) had *a talking to* about following an adult’s instruction while at school. IIRC, the conversation did not particularly say a teacher, just any adult while at school. This has bothered me since I first heard it. I still want to know why Kyron needed that talking to, and exactly whom they were refering to. I’ll see if I can find the quote, okay here it is:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/parents_of_kyron_horman_to_app.html (article is from 6/25/10, day before the sting??)
(snipped)
Kyron is well-versed in “stranger danger,” his parents said, but because he has some trouble following directions in school, they have worked with him on listening to teachers and parents in a school setting.
When asked if Kyron might have left Skyline with an adult he didn’t know, Young said she wasn’t sure.
“I can’t say he wouldn’t because [he knew] it’s a stranger danger situation,” Young said. “I don’t know if he would recognize that.”
**************
What has always bothered me about this interview and their answers is the fact that bothered to include the word “parents” at the school premises. I would love to know exactly who Kyron was disobeying, either parent or teacher while at the school. Kids have the darnedest reasons.
I was thinking about something this morning, why hasn’t any of Terri’s attorneys made the simple statement “my client is innocent”. Isn’t that common? I don’t follow enough cases to know, but I was thinking there would probably be only one of three reasons not to say that.
1. You know your client is guilty.
2. You know that saying she/he is innocent will somehow put your client (or someone else) in danger.
3. You know that saying she/he is innocent will take the focus off your client and LE has asked that you don’t do that, because they are waiting for the real suspect to make a mistake. Which would ultimately clear your client.
Why else not?
Geeze, wasn’t this the day before the sting (and Kaine filing for divorce)?
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/parents_of_kyron_horman_to_app.html
(snipped)
The entire family is working with investigators, Kaine Horman said, including Terri Horman.
“She’s cooperating with investigators as passionately as are we,” Horman said.
Neither stepparent attended the interviews. Kaine Horman said that he and Young wanted to go before the cameras together as Kyron’s natural parents.
Yes. This is what I believe DY was upset that she and TY were not told about- imo
B
@TRuth and @wpg, I see it was wpg that posted the school photo. My apologies. You are both “purples” lol..
wpg says:
November 15, 2012 at 4:58 pm
I have never seen this photo of a younger Kyron, his tiny little hands on a computer keyboard.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=505220926176176&set=a.125436494154623.14645.125336750831264&type=1&theater
The lump in my throat is a reminder that in those June 5 emails there are no words of concern for Kyron, no fear for him, no cry out for what terror he may be experiencing.
But (imo) there’s a cry out for “They are blaming me in the blogs. I just want to scream.”, with content of it’s-not-MY-fault. Nope, a little boy who may be having mini-seizures for 2 weeks is left to walk alone through a “highly chaotic” scene of what “had to been 300 people running around” . . . it’s-not-MY-fault – - – it’s ENTIRELY the school’s fault . . .
“I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am.” . . . the presence of mind to mention the 7 miles reminds me of google mapping.
The omission of concern for Kyron less than 24 hours of realization that he is missing is not computing for me, it’s not natural.
IDK, just don’t know.
HUGE SIGH, that photo of Kyron has really hit my heart.
I spent a long time today going to the Missing Kyron
Just looking at his pics
There are so many
Always smiling and interested in what going on
It was very enjoyable
Blink replies to T.Ruth
November 15, 2012 at 10:58 pm:
“Yes. This is what I believe DY was upset that she and TY were not told about- imo”
B
Blink, if you are referring to DY’s words on and just after Dateline’s November 12 2010 episode . . . the revelations and allegations in the publicly available and MEDIA PUBLISHED October legal filings by Rackner were of further upset to DY, and that she and TY were not aware of “what was going on in that house” until they read the media publications.
Just to note, it’s my understanding LE showed DY and TY the “hatred enails” AFTER the taping of the November 12th Dateline but on the same day of the airing, which was a FRIDAY November 12, 2010.
from MONDAY, November 15 2010:
“Kyron Horman’s mom Desiree on the Today Show 11/15/2010″
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4QtcooAQgE
No wpg- I am referring to the fact that the sting, which I believe Kaine participated in to an extent was withheld from her. I don’t know anyone close to this case that did not think that shut the door on TH cooperation forever, and they are right.
B
Yes ma’am.
B
“enails” ?
Ouch, sorry for the typo.
@vw. Blink once suggested he came early & scouted, or
had worked there.
1. wpg says:
November 16, 2012 at 1:35 am
Snip:
“I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am.” . . . the presence of mind to mention the 7 miles reminds me of google mapping
——————————
Sometimes I wonder if Dede was the person at Fred Meyers that morning. At that time TH and DS looked very much alike. I hope that LE knows what these 2 women wore that day or if they had ever purchased similar outfits that they could no longer account for.
No offense, but they look absolutely nothing alike, not even on grainy footage.
And TH ran into a witness who confirmed her stop there and showed her pics of Kyron from the science fair.
B
Sounds like we have all looked at Kyron’s pics again
What strikes me is how many there are
I never had so many pics of my kids
But with new tech you can snap a shot from the phone
Anytime
He just looks like such a fun child
All this is sad
I really hope LE is still working on this
@Rose says:
November 15, 2012 at 6:03 pm
(Hope I’m not pushing part 2 too much, though I am anxious. LOL)
Sorry I didn’t keep the link to the second one, can’t remember which story we were posting under, but here are a couple of neighbor’s posts regarding the electrical projects, note that it doesn’t say these were the *only* electrical displays and she says she didn’t see all the exhibits. I hope Blink has more definitive information for us soon.
neighbor says:
October 6, 2010 at 6:50 pm
@Tigi “It seems that there’s a running assumption that Kyron went downstairs to see the cool electric one, but I haven’t found any real source that indicates this to be the case.”
Agree. One of the classrooms upstairs (in between the office and Ky’s classroom) had electrical displays. That would be more likely IMO.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/09/09/kyron-horman-missing-case-review-and-birthday-wishes-to-the-frog-prince/comment-page-55/#comments
neighbor says:
January 16, 2011 at 11:35 pm
@beejay, At the risk of confusing you (and others) .. CR209 (or maybe CR211) was filled with electrical displays. The before/after school care is in CAFE102. There might have been other electrical displays. I have only been in half the classrooms.
—————
Kyron’s classroom was CR213, next to CR211.
T. Ruth says:
November 15, 2012 at 10:56 pm
I was thinking about something this morning, why hasn’t any of Terri’s attorneys made the simple statement “my client is innocent”. Isn’t that common? I don’t follow enough cases to know, but I was thinking there would probably be only one of three reasons not to say that.
1. You know your client is guilty.
2. You know that saying she/he is innocent will somehow put your client (or someone else) in danger.
3. You know that saying she/he is innocent will take the focus off your client and LE has asked that you don’t do that, because they are waiting for the real suspect to make a mistake. Which would ultimately clear your client.
Why else not?
————–
I think when Houze called the LE/media case against a “Witch Hunt” he meant that she was an innocent person caught up in a media frenzy much like the witches in the Salem witch trials. Probably he is saving the rest of TH’s defense for any court appearance or trial generated by the accusations against her.
-snip
He also said Terri Horman has been the subject of threats, considering what he called the “media frenzy” and “witch hunt” aimed at his client. There have been “threats of harm routinely directed towards my client, which I take very seriously,” he said.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kaine_horman_urges_judge_to_fo.html
Gosh, I read back at some of the thousands and thousands of comments, speculations, theories on this case and it’s just overwhelming. So many different approaches, most all of which are possibilities, and yet there is only one truth out there. Isn’t it amazing how much having “non-information” can make so many possibles? Where is that one piece of real information, that will lead us to the correct scenario, to SZ? Where is anything that will let us start eliminating some of these possibilities?
One comment from Blink was that at one point she thought Terri may have already been indicted and it was sealed.
Blink, being as the GJ is still meeting (according to Bunch’s argument to the court this past June), that’s not still possible is it?
Doubtful, because I do not believe they are open to pursuing separate indictments for the mfh and the disappearance.
B
So the first bio only interview that Friday where Kaine makes it a point to drop how passionately Terri is cooperating with LE & bios was part of disinformation/disarm Terri on LE’s part, cooperating with Kaine. Well, fine plan but they sure shouldn’t have put another poly on Sat nor followed her.
I suppose they had a reason to inform only Kaine not Youngs in advance.
@Blink
Thanks, at least we can rule out something.
************
Doesn’t the divorce abatement end next week on November 22? Thanksgiving?
I believe it was adjourned until Dec. 14 ish
B
VW, I went to your blog today. Nice! I wanted to comment but needed to select an option(identity?) to post. I see that “anonymous” wasn’t an option. It was my intention say that I had come over from Blink, and to sign my alias, “January” but didn’t feel comfortable posting my real and public information. I’m not sure how to post, and to protect my identity.
Before my mother passed away, I went on to a medical blog which talked about COPD. I asked a question on the blog using my personal information. A few months later, I googled my name to see what came up, and there was my name, email address, and my medical question. It was bothersome. I’ve googled my name since, and don’t see it anymore but since then I’ve been paranoid to post anything with my identity.
Blink replies:
“No wpg- I am referring to the fact that the sting, which I believe Kaine participated in to an extent was withheld from her. I don’t know anyone close to this case that did not think that shut the door on TH cooperation forever, and they are right.”
B
‘ya know, Blink, it never occurred to me that the sting could be another thing withheld from the DY, not to mention TY who would have input on repercussions.
(it did occur to me it was another choice KH made that DY did not agree with.) cheese’n'rice . . .
Thanks, Blink, this makes sense considering other things/words/actions – - including the day before the sting interview.
Thanks, erose, for posting and commenting on that interview.
vw,
Not only is the shoulder area a long way for little Kyron to travel, it’s also a long way (both ways) for a sick toddler especially with the weather conditions that morning.
I’m hoping Blink will address the parking location(s).
Do you think DY/TY would’ve raised concerns about the sting
had MCSO/Kaine told them? Kaine didn’t, and his cooperation
was necessary. I wonder why he didn’t balk with mcso, as he knrw his wife’s
likely reactions and must’ve heard
Terri’s input to mcso about Rudy,
and been there mother’s day
Terri wrote, so mcso knew, about RS attempt to
sexually assaulted her, jeopardizing Kiara, and she fingered
RS to LE as a possible abductor, and she had called 911 on
him less than a month previous. So why would mcso think
she’d do anything other than call 911 or get Kaine’s gun?
Case needs to go to State police investigators at least.
I have NO info that RS attempted to sexually assault anyone. Honestly, I think I will explode if another unqualified agency takes a crack at this case.
B
oops,
Thanks, T.RUTH, for posting and commenting on that interview.
@wpg says:
November 16, 2012 at 1:35 am
(snipped)
The lump in my throat is a reminder that in those June 5 emails there are no words of concern for Kyron, no fear for him, no cry out for what terror he may be experiencing.
But (imo) there’s a cry out for “They are blaming me in the blogs. I just want to scream.”, with content of it’s-not-MY-fault. Nope, a little boy who may be having mini-seizures for 2 weeks is left to walk alone through a “highly chaotic” scene of what “had to been 300 people running around” . . . it’s-not-MY-fault – – – it’s ENTIRELY the school’s fault . . .
“I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am.” . . . the presence of mind to mention the 7 miles reminds me of google mapping.
The omission of concern for Kyron less than 24 hours of realization that he is missing is not computing for me, it’s not natural.
IDK, just don’t know.
******************
I know what you mean, it sounds callous and uncaring, but…..it occurs to me that we are not (are may not be) seeing the emails in their entirety. For all we know, the first parts or latter parts of those emails said exactly the kind of thing you are saying. There could also be other emails that say only caring thoughts. We just don’t know.
Remember too that Terri had already been through hours and hours of *interviews* with LE, some allegedly 5-6 hour sessions. That IMO is normal practice for the last person known to see a missing child, who is unable to account for all the minutes in their day, but it doesn’t make it pleasant, especially if you are telling the truth and feel no one is believing you.
In that situation, I’d be livid. I’d be pulling my hair out and screaming at them to FIND MY STEPSON and quit wasting your time with me! (Which IMO those emails are pretty much saying.) Not that it would do any good, they’d still be *interviewing* me, no doubt, just ask Carl Probyn, or Amber Dubois’ stepdad. I would bet my bottom dollar that these men also vented frustration at the accusations/intimidating questions being thrown at them by LE, we just never got the email, LOL.
I also have to check myself from going off on these snippets of emails, and remind myself that NO ONE, not Kyron’s daddy, not his birth mother, stepdad, nor any other relative was speaking out to Kyron or pleading to his abductor to let him go during those first days. It’s all most bizarre, but until I see everything in its entirety, I will continue to reserve judgement, on a snippet of an email or spliced up sexts, texts or other conveniently leaked data. I ask to this day, why not show the whole emails? Why not show the alleged hate emails? Why did the sexts end with Terri talking about Kaine not knowing Kiara’s favorite blankie? Who is hiding what?
I get that same lump though, so I know what you mean.
Have you all seen this?
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-etan-patz-pedro-hernandez-20121116,0,410394.story
Suspect in Etan Patz case to plead not guilty, lawyer says
(snipped)
It is unclear if there is any evidence other than Hernandez’s confession. Under New York law, a confession might be enough for a conviction, but false confessions are common in cases as celebrated as the Patz disappearance.
Fishbein said the defense planned to have expert witnesses explain why people sometimes admit to crimes they didn’t commit.
“It’s a hard concept to understand. But it’s a reality. And it’s a scary reality,” he told reporters.
(more @ link)
***********
The poor Patz family.
Blink
Do you know if an active investigation is going on or not
Month after month of no word from LE
Is making me wonder
The definition of active can be as little as one tip or lead being followed per day.
B
A certain FB page is closed
The person says good bye
@Rose, I know this, but for reasons unknown, constantly need to reaffirm that *someone* could actually go in to a school and get away with abducting a child, as bold and brazen as it sounds, you are right. When we look at SZ, and as you say Beejay’s theory of once removed from RS, then we are looking at what Blink said as well, that RS & Associates are key. We cannot assume that his associates are of his nationality. His associate could be DAD, the prominent? person holding the lien on his truck, an INS hold or a teacher, resident, parent, extended family member, who knows.
There was that other landscaper (story removed from MSM) Zack? that answered TH’s ad on Service Magic, I think it was in April, which would have been shortly before the early May 911 call she made about RS. Accoring to Zack?, TH never returned his calls, meaning; a) she and RS were on rocky ground in April but she did not replace him in April as planned or b) she found another landscaper or c) her relationship with RS did not go back as far as he claimed (2009) and she only just found him on Service Magic in April.
Seems LE believed RS, so the immunity he was offered must have been for the mfh. Leaving Kyron out of the mfh, it leaves two basic camps; TH really wanted to have KH killed, or RS lied. If we believe RS lied, logically it seems it would be to cover his tracks or explain communication or actions regarding Kyron. But does that have to be the case? Does the mfh have anything to do with Kyron and his abduction, or is it just another herring in the school (pun intended)?
Now I’m asking, is there a way that TH and RS could both be telling the truth?
Rose says:
November 15, 2012 at 6:10 pm
If that is to me erose, yes, there is. If this was a crime of opportunity by SZ having nothing to do with what was going on with TH/RS/KH/DY.
I would like to point out that to my knowledge, RS was UNREPRESENTED during his interviews with LE, and obviously during his participation during the failed sting.
Ergo, wth are they going to end up charging someone with when in a sense, without having read him his rights as they are obligated to- if in fact he is a suspect of anything, that they set him up for?
Does that make sense? What if she had said, “O sure, lemme go grab my checkbook- since he is not here, he must be six feet under- let’s get you paid up.”
So at what point did this man have immunity exactly? On his word? In KH RO he was told late “last year” TH tried to have someone murder him by LE. It said nothing about a relationship, and he himself has also stated he was unaware they even had a landscaper- so what was the prima facie to even light this warhead of a bunson burner?
What corroboration was found? What collattoral evidence or interviews were used in conjunction to secure this warrant? So let’s also go there a second- with that in mind, what was the scope of the warrant itself? This was no small operation.
A landscaper with a questionable immigration status who is terrified he is about to be arrested for a kidnapping of a child unless he can prove some other plot?
Is that entire fiasco likely to be suppressed? I say quite possibly, and then that means anything evidentiary associated with it. Add Houze to the equation, and I guarantee you this case got tossed to the DA because Houze figured this out in about 3 nano-seconds.
It is my personal opinion this is why there has been no arrest for the mfh. Whatever they have or think they have, is inextricably linking the two alleged crimes and immunity, limited use or otherwise was already granted to their material witness. I have to assume LE did not entertain the idea this man was somehow acting alone out of some jealous jilted lover thing- right?
I doubt it, the timing is off, and that would force the miranda issue as well.
The theory :
“Well if she was willing to off her hubby, who is very much alive, btw, she would be willing to off her step-son. So…. since we believe she solicited the dude we are going to agree not to prosecute, or mirandiize him, and he has therefore in fact NOT acted on some sort of real or perceived expectation of agreement, then she must have hired or enlisted someone else we do not know about.”
So it is still her, with an unsub that 9 Federal and State law agencies have been unable to name, privately or publicly.
Let me tell you what I might have bought early on, well, probably not bought, but entertained to it’s exclusion- That TH formed a plot that looked like whatever “spaceyness” was going on, was attributable to his wanting to be with his Momma, and was now affecting his safety and school experience.
If she did not want him there, for whatever reasons, and we already heard from DY that TH was IN SUPPORT of her efforts on that, I could see her planning some low-level movie of the week: he gets lost for a few hours , is found, she gets to mention it to the doc, and is effectively helping DY make her case for custody modification. Some hybrid of munchausen. Here is the thing about that hypothetical, however-
IT COULD APPLY TO ANY PARENT IN THIS SCENARIO- PERIOD. So how do we arrive at the conclusion, sans any physical or direct evidence, in fact, eyewitness testimony that excludes TH as removing Kyron from the school that it has to be TH?
I say if it is too thin to prosecute, it should be too thin to hold a definite conclusion, imo.
B
@wpg, I have not abandoned the possibility of TH’s involvement, fwiw. Devils advocate – I do wonder if we have seen all the content of those emails, or just a portion, which could be misleading.
The way I understand things, DY was already suspicious of TH while on the phone with her, just after learning about Kyron going missing. TY expressed his suspicions later about her demeanor in those first few days. She was told she did not pass her poly. Could be LE lied to her, could be she was deceptive about something unrelated to Kyron, or of course she could have lied.
It’s just hard to know what a person’s demeanor would be when everyone already thought they were guilty. How would you get the focus back to the school, if that is who you blamed? I can see outrage or frustration at everyone “having it wrong” and no one believing the truth.
Is it possible that she may have wanted her husband killed, but had nothing to do with your son’s abduction? How do you explain a mfh and keep custody of your daughter?
wpg says:
November 16, 2012 at 1:35 am
correction: her son’s abduction
Doesn’t the divorce abatement end next week on November 22? Thanksgiving?
I believe it was adjourned until Dec. 14 ish
B
*********************************************
Divorce abatement was until Nov 23. They will have to file another motion if they want to continue it. The Dec 14th date is for the hearing on motion to compel testimony from Dede Spicher in the civil case.
Thank you for that correction Concerned.
B
Personally, I think Kyron was just as normal as any other little boy his age, which includes occasional spaciness. Add to that fighting parents in the home, lots more attention paid to the new baby, losing his role model older brother, I can see where he might have been unhapppy.
I still think that TMH loved him a lot (or did at one point) — you just don’t take that many happy, smiling family photos (by the way, where is KH in all of the pictures??) of someone you don’t like.
So then, I wondered if maybe KH had a jealous whatever who couldn’t get KH to un-Velcro himself from his son and/or daughter, and maybe knew some who would take care of her “little problem”. Doubt it, but everyone seems to be fair game here for a look-see.
And then I wondered if maybe TMH is being kept so quiet in order to protect someone else, like her daughter. Can’t think of a single other reason why someone would willingly stay away from their own child.
And finally, it seems like the people in this group are doing more and finding out more and learning way more than LE.
@erose says: November 17, 2012 at 3:10 am
@Concerned Citizen says:
November 17, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Thanks. Courts are closed or open on Friday?
Blink,
Your reply to erose’s comments are a lot for me to take in.
I recall you saying RS was deemed credible.
On another recent thread I asked you what 3 things in your opinion LE should be doing “right now”. Your response included taking the mfh off the table with TH and having her take a polygraph with specific questions geared to Kyron’s disappearance.
My impression was you found some level of credibility in the mfh.
I found credibility in the belief, and I was told from a source that RS is a credible witness- but to what exactly, I don’t know. I can’t exclude anything I “opined” in my response to erose.
I continue to compliment you on your depth of critical thinking.
B
kinda OT: does anyone with more patience than I
see a link to Kyron Horman Foundation ftom the Bring Kyron Home page?
hearts to truth, erose, malty.
@Blink TY for correction & good to know State is not the place.
I have been worrying about a former teacher pedofile @ our former school, probably as prolific as Sandusky, will get off hook as it’s in County hands, & I thought at least a State served some benefit to finally prosecute Sandusky.
But, you are right, with an unidentified SZ, that would be useless.
I thought moderation slowed as you were batting out our Thanksgiving gift of Pt 2.
But your reply comment to erose seems to be the cogitation oration.
Best analysis I’ve read in this thread, or any, re case.
gotta say, it is astonishing RS was not mirandized before mfh debriefing
and that he was not counseled to obtain representation during sting planning & GJ testimony phase.
In manor part, that was necessary to
protect DA case on Terri.
This goes beyond mcso inexperience imo. The Detective in charge, or then FBI Field Off Dir, deliberately did not want him to have representation. However, RS is not that stupid, acting alone uninstructed by DA Office & mcso,
imo, so unless he is the world’s worst cheapskate, what gives?
I have seen people comment, not specifically here, that TH supporting Ky going to live with DY indicates TH wanted him gone. I find that curious. Perhaps she cared enough about the boy to want him happy.
I am in the camp of people totally aggravated that no one seems to publicly hold the school responsible.
If a child goes from school with ANYONE … parent, emergency contact or perp … and no one knows they are gone, then they are MISSING, unaccounted for from a place that is supposed to have account for them.
But alas it does happen, and children go missing from home too. And so the next item on the agenda is timely notification. If a parent noticed a child missing at 9 or 10am and did not report that child missing until … well never, the school never sent out the alarm, the Horman’s did … (now I don’t know quite how to finish that sentence).
Can you imagine if, at 10 am the school had called TH or KH or DY? TH would have said “oh wait, I am not supposed to meet DD with the body for an hour and a half yet.” I write that sarcastically. Seriously, TH would be able to prove that she did not have the boy, the closets could have been searched, the lawn mowing guy would have fresh recall of what he had seen in the last 60 minutes, the kids might be able to remember exactly when they last saw Ky, the school would have been in lock down, everyone put in the gym and they could draw up a list of everyone else parents remember being there.
*Sigh* It has not happened and now we are trying to put the pieces back together.
I am quite curious about the timing (9am or 10am) of the sub/volunteer’s comment “wait there’s only 5″ and the teacher’s response “calm down, calm down he’s probably in the bathroom.” And then she (sub/vol) left. It could be it was at 9am. She counted the group and left to tour with only 5, believing that Ky was indeed in the bathroom and would catch up. That seems a little awkward. To me it seems more reasonable that it was at 10am when she came back. She took a head count and was a bit surprised to find only 5 kiddos. But the teacher told her it was OK so she left for the day. Although, why would the teacher say he was possibly in the bathroom and then mark him absent at 10am (isn’t that what was published, that he was marked absent at 10am)? Or is that also data that, upon interviewing became clear that the timing was not accurate?
In this latter presumption (conversation happens at 10am), the question then becomes did the sub actually start with 6 or does she not know whether or not she did. To me this would explain why he was originally reported last seen at 9am. It was ASSUMED that he was present in the group when the sub said “OK, all blue group … or whatever … follow me.” Then upon LE questioning it was realized that the sub has no idea of whether Ky was actually in the group at 9am or not. So now the last seen time is changed to 8:45am. This would also explain to me why the school is so quiet on this thing. Who is going to confess that they should have known at NINE that he was gone?
Now back to my earlier comment … can you imagine if TH, KH or DY was called at NINE???
I can imagine that is the entire point, really. There was no way for ANYONE to know who would have or who would not have been called. His jacket and backpack were hanging in the classroom, and he was indeed marked absent by 10am. Kyron was seen by many- in fact, he was missed and it was brought up- so not such a good plan.
B
erose says:
November 17, 2012 at 3:10 am
Blink says (snipped) –
Let me tell you what I might have bought early on, well, probably not bought, but entertained to it’s exclusion- That TH formed a plot that looked like whatever “spaceyness” was going on, was attributable to his wanting to be with his Momma, and was now affecting his safety and school experience.
If she did not want him there, for whatever reasons, and we already heard from DY that TH was IN SUPPORT of her efforts on that, I could see her planning some low-level movie of the week: he gets lost for a few hours , is found, she gets to mention it to the doc, and is effectively helping DY make her case for custody modification. Some hybrid of munchausen.
—————————————-
I can buy that the spacy episodes were based on a bit of truth. Kids do that. When I was teaching I was sometimes asked to observe particular kids because a seizure disorder was suspected. I had a 3rd grade student once who told me she could “go into a trance” whenever she wanted, and would occasionally appear to until she realized we went on with class without her. Only one student of mine ever had a true neurological disorder. Not saying that’s standard, just that it isn’t a conclusion I would jump to, however, everything has to be investigated.
In NONE of the above cases was I ever the only person to notice this. Occasionally, I was the first and my response was to contact the parents and copy the nurse and school psychologist. My first response as a parent would have been to immediately ask the teacher and other family members what they observed. Unless one of us clearly observed a seizure, I would have collected more information before contacting the doctor, not because I wasn’t concerned, but because doctors often don’t act without enough clues to make specialists and tests worth the effort for the child and to justify the costs involved.
I don’t recall DY ever saying she observed anything like that from Kyron. Terri, IIRC, said it had been happening for a couple of weeks which would probably cover why, if there was anything to notice, DY hadn’t observed it yet. Kaine said he (sort of) did after thinking about it, and he thought it was a normal response due to loss of sleep. IMO, Kaine did not observe what Terri said she saw. I believe he was reluctant to say no because Kyron had disappeared, he couldn’t say exactly why or how, he didn’t want to appear to be an unobservant parent, and even though he didn’t really believe it, he couldn’t rule it out.
IMO, Mrs. Porter had not seen this behavior in Kyron either, unless she is the most incompetent, uncaring, unprofessional teacher ever – which I also don’t believe. No child ever left my classroom without my knowledge and permission or an instant “manhunt”. The fact that a FB post (a “sigh” by Terri next to a class picture without Kyron) the previous November, added to the comment on June 4th about Kyron probably being in the bathroom, seem to indicate Kyron had been making unannounced trips to the bathroom, leads me to conclude:
1 – the school was pretty relaxed about bathroom and hallway privileges
2 – no one thought Kyron would wander away and not come back
3 – no one, including Mrs. Porter, thought Kyron could possibly have a seizure while out of sight (at the very least, she could have assigned a buddy to go with him)
So it appears to me that Terri was the only one saying Kyron was being inattentive, spacy, or possibly having “mini-seizures”. Even so, she didn’t seem worried enough to be sure he was connected to a responsible adult before she left. IF she was making it up or embellishing some behavior she did observe, it makes it more likely she had a reason for doing that. Therefore, the idea that she may have had some scheme in mind is possible.
If Terri meant for him to get lost for a few hours to somehow lead to him moving to be with DY, it seems unlikely she would have done it on her watch alone since she was the only one saying he had this problem, so the school was a necessary “partner”. Since I don’t think Kyron would have wandered off on his own, it seems something or someone would have had to direct the disappearance (whatever the reason). Then comes the part where I always get stuck – wanting him found again. He would have an explanation for all the world to hear – unless he was drugged and could not remember.
My most off-the-wall scenario from the past, which I don’t think anyone here accepted but which I still keep filed in the back of my mind, had to do with Terri attempting to create an appearance of a disorder in Kyron with the use of ketamine. Ketamine (Special K) review:
http://www.drugfree.org/drug-guide/ketamine (snipped)
Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic developed in 1963 to replace PCP and currently used in human anesthesia and veterinary medicine. Much of the ketamine sold on the street has been diverted from veterinarians’ offices. Ketamine’s chemical structure and mechanism of action are similar to those of PCP.
Although it is manufactured as an injectable liquid, in illicit use ketamine is generally evaporated to form a powder.
Ketamine is odorless and tasteless, so it can be added to beverages without being detected, and it induces amnesia. Because of these properties, the drug is sometimes given to unsuspecting victims and used in the commission of sexual assaults referred to as “drug rape.
Low-dose intoxication from ketamine results in impaired attention, learning ability, and memory.
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Ketamine also disappears rapidly from the body.
A very little powder in his orange juice wouldn’t be likely to cause permanent damage (supposedly), and might lead to a reason for DY to get custody. It might also lead to an overdose and a panicked accomplice – or to a number of other possibilities. Enough along this line of thinking for now.
@ Blink –
http://www.kgw.com/news/Dragon-boat-paddlers-remember-murdered-friend-179817261.html
Carrying red roses and sad hearts, the Wasabi Paddling Club came together to remember the late Nancy Bergeson, a federal attorney and avid dragon boat racer.
Portland police say detectives want more leads in the case, but they are not giving up. Portland’s cold case unit are now assisting detectives in the case.
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Even though a lot of time goes by, her friends do a wonderful job of reminding people of this case. I wonder how the cold case unit assists – maybe it’s just a matter of more people putting in the time.
I know it isn’t related to Kyron, but the apparent total absence of clues, the innocence, and the frustration of family and friends sort of makes a spiritual connection with all the similar cases. You begin to feel as though you really knew these people.
ASA Bergeson’s case has always bothered me- this is a case, imo, that releasing details would absolutely produce leads that would ultimately lead to a prosecution-
I want to amplify your sentiment of the spiritual connection of unsolved cases- in particular murder.
Likely an oversimplified and subjective observation on my part- but I truly believe the weight of that hangs on the universe like some freaky barometric un-friendly blanket.
B
then I infer the “not such a good plan” was executed by a male driven by an undeniable urge for instant gratification for whom the aftermath investigation of the abduction & likely swift death was secondary and no deterrant due to his drives. He is so lucky his choice was a member of the Horman mess.
His jacket and backpack were hanging in the classroom
-Blink
Oh yes, thank you for reminding me as that was another point about the school. I just DO NOT see how the school is not accused of gross negligence. ARGGHHHH.
La la la la la la, fingers in my ears, eyes closed … If TH was the one, then MY child is not at risk.
@Mags
La la la la la la, fingers in my ears, eyes closed … If TH was the one, then MY child is not at risk.
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ITA. After two weeks, as a PPS mom who got that 6/10 call, I was TOTALLY relieved when the failed Poly and “feigned concern” descriptions of TMH at the first presser came out. Then the LE “poster of the truck and TMH” clinched it.
My kids were safe. It was the stepmom that “did” it. O.K…..back to norman and to summer fun.
Am trying to think just exactly when my doubts started.