Dr. Phil Show Hosts Missing Portland Child Kyron Horman’s Step Mom Terri Horman Over Two Episodes

I have been covering this case since Kyron Horman disappeared from Skyline School in June, 2010.    Like most missing persons cases I have covered in the past,  I am of the strong opinion that best efforts at the truth are the only way to propel investigations that, similarly to Kyron’s, have gone cold for one reason or another.   This approach has worked in resolving some of my previous cases.    I am proud of that.  I remain steadfast to the integrity involved in those and future cases.

Over the past 10 months (or so) I have been developing an updated series on Kyron’s case to include my multiple interviews with Kyron’s step-mom,  Terri Horman.   Needless to say as she was the subject of at least three simultaneous cases before an Oregon court and remains a person of interest by the agency investigating her sons disappearance, this has been an arduous and sometimes delicate journey.    Ms. Horman’s experiences during the ongoing investigation of the disappearance of Kyron Horman are critically important to propelling his case and with great hope- finding the truth about what happened to this cherubic and innocent child.    There are dozens of sources,  collateral interviews, forensic experts and legal analysts that also contribute to my series and have done so because of their belief that my motivation is to bring to light information and opinions in such a way that would almost “require” a focused review of Kyron’s case and the likely shaking of that proverbial tree everyone talks about.

Set to publish about 6-ish weeks ago I was asked to postpone the first installment of the series, which I did.  I subsequently learned Ms. Horman was participating in the Dr. Phil program after she completed taping.  Dr. Phils producers were well aware that Ms. Horman had interviewed with me extensively, and anticipated my series would be publishing information that was not known to the public previously in the days prior to her scheduled episode.    When Ms. Horman conveyed to me that she feels obligated to speak out about “her son” in any national medium that will have her,   I most certainly respected that.  I still do.

While Dr. Phil seems like a gregarious fellow for sure,   I have zero interest in being associated with his program, nor do I believe his shows content is designed to do any furtherance of investigation or truth.  There is much concern (although I have no affiliation to the show whatsoever) that the timing of the publication of my series on the Kyron Horman matter might be interpreted differently or inadvertently contribute to the programs content or audience reactions.     Not what I signed on for.   A missing 7 year old boy six years running is not a framework for entertaining a target audience.   He is not fodder for online social media bully campaigns- yet it occurs.

I will be publishing my series on Kyron’s case at a later date, in it’s entirety with no editing adjustments as a result of any of the appearances on Dr. Phil.   I appreciate your patience and your understanding.   Feel free to discuss the show below.


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  1. Rose says:

    Desiree would say imo she went to great effort, &
    substantial pain, to drive RT to Portland & visit the
    school resulting in confirming her (the abduction)
    timeline whatever that is.
    I looked back and “our LE team” is Desiree-speak for
    deputies tasked with arresting the perpetrator. She
    believes they are on the same page. I expect Soldier will
    publish a timeline shortly as it was mentioned here. Farming
    it out indirectly gives Desiree deniability.

    I will say this again,sigh. If anyone could conclude that Kyron left with Terri Horman, or probably even that it was a PHYSICAL possibility, Terri Horman would have been indicted years ago. Additionally, if Desiree herself could ever have “proven” Kyron left with Terri, or even that it was not IMPOSSIBLE that he did, she would never have dropped her civil suit.

    Don Rees is on record that (at the request of MCSO which, btw, is unheard of- we are talking about an empaneled GJ that was standing for like 4 years AFTER a no true bill- the handful of former ADA’s I interviewed said they have never seen that in Multnomah County in their tenure or as a private practice Atty, ever) he suspended the gj multiple times and it was dismissed last year. Staton is on the record publicly Kyron was seen later than they originally thought and so is his own teacher, who frankly, had every motivation not to admit that, but did. As I recall Desiree told Dr. Phil Terri buried Kyron in the backyard of the family home as well- same access to LE then and to my knowledge, which is admittedly pretty solid, no new evidence in this case in several years. Find suspect zero and with all of my heart, soul and faith I say… find Kyron. It is also the only thing Kaine Horman has said publicly that I 100% believe to be credible.

  2. Rose says:

    who would Desiree ask to read the depos?
    She’s not speaking to Kaine, or Terri.

    She would need to ask the clerk to review the file and request a copy, which she may or may not be entitled to. I assume she could do this as any other private citizen, but most certainly she could also go through her own counsel.

  3. Rose says:

    Either someone on “our team” in mcso is lying to desiree,
    or she is innocently delusional, or Gofundme is depleted.
    Skyline “Admin” did her no favors in reinforcing her delusional
    beliefs. In her shoes, my motive for “touring” would’ve been to
    talk to Porter at the school. Funny she never did that the summer of 2010.
    Said she’d not been there since abduction. I’d have been sitting
    across from Keefer, Porter, & Mathews on June 7 as would be my right
    as a parent in PPS whether their counsel joined us or not.

  4. Rose says:

    ot imo the reason Henry was immediately rewarded w/position of Special Counsel to AG:
    Don’t have to come to DC for a Swamp.

  5. T. Ruth says:

    Rose says:
    March 15, 2018 at 10:34 am

    who would Desiree ask to read the depos?
    She’s not speaking to Kaine, or Terri.

    She would need to ask the clerk to review the file and request a copy, which she may or may not be entitled to. I assume she could do this as any other private citizen, but most certainly she could also go through her own counsel.

    The depositions from the dissolution are public record? (i.e., Porter and Matthews, Hall?)

    If not, what grounds would DY and an attorney have to see them? And if she can get access to them, why the heck doesn’t she do that while she’s hanging out in Portland?


    I haven’t seen this alleged timeline letter DY wrote, but if she said her team was there, I’m guessing “her team” means her soldier supporters, not MCSO. JMO

    Unless there is a court order sealing them (or a protection order) they are public record.

  6. Rose says:

    where is everyone?

    imo boggles the mind that a bereaved mother—
    who has an attorney—has never gotten her hands on
    every depo in the Horman case from
    everyone at Skyline that day who was deposed.
    does not make any sense.

  7. A Texas Grandfather says:

    o/t: Thank you for thinking of me. Surgery scheduled for 6 weeks out. Quite honestly I am still in the salty and pissed off phase I have to have it at all. When that passes, if it passes, I will talk about it. Nothing anyone did wrong, just some undetected fractures and post surgical complications. I know there are a million people who have worse situations and I am thankful not be them. I remain humbled as I believe is part of my lesson. That said, when you are in so much pain you have to drive on the Schuylkill with your foot on the dash packed in ice inside your lunch cooler- it is time to admit defeat, lol.
    Red shirt?

    Heart u

  8. A Texas Grandfather says:

    I know it hurts from my own experience, but don’t give up. Six weeks is not very long unless you are a child. The bones in the foot take a big load when we walk. X-rays often do not expose tiny fractures in bones. The big thing is to get them healed. Yes, red.

    Maybe a good check on the porosity of the bones is in order and a program to provide additional calcium if needed.

    LOL. Heart you VP.
    I don’t know how to give up if I ever wanted to. Combo of undetected fractures, complicated nerve damage and then post surgical non-unions. Add a stump neuroma and Hello Frankenfoot! My surgeon cracked up when I asked him if we were talking full on secession or more like some sort of border confusion that could be worked out peacefully. Then he said it is a great thing when someone with your prognosis has such a good sense of humor. Womp Womp. Checking for osteoporosis is always a great idea, you are 100% correct- It is not a factor for me though. (thankfully) It will be ok and I will continue with my lesson in humility from above. XO

  9. Rose says:

    ot SCL as applied to child finding: Once case is transferred to FBI, get warrants for FB accounts of all 4 K parents extending to the FB friends as constituted in 2010, and those who inserted themselves into the investigation, & staff of Skyline. have Wylie as penance provide to the FBI a generalized psychmetric graphics processing tool and consulting analysis to process derived data points to predict if any of said persons profiles as a child molester. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/17/data-war-whistleblower-christopher-wylie-faceook-nix-bannon-trump

  10. Rose says:

    ot at training 4 Parkland teen March , I learned Park Service gave the entire Mall to an enterprise needing room for 2 tables, 2 bikes, & jump ropes. Teens permitted a few smallist unconnected spaces elsewhere, & it’s a 2 hr rally, not a March. Ted Wheeler should take some pointers from Zinke on crowd control.

  11. Rose says:

    not that I hold with thus, but if Google still has 6/4/10 records, a warrant for Skyline’s location from 8-10 would potentially have a yield. https://www.wral.com/to-find-suspects-police-quietly-turn-to-google/17377435/?version=amp&__twitter_impression=true

  12. T. Ruth says:

    Unless there is a court order sealing them (or a protection order) they are public record.
    Wow, then isn’t it weird the media hasn’t reported on them, particularly in regard to Porter’s depo. Maybe they are sealed due to the “ongoing investigation”. What would be the basis for a protection order? (Where is grasshopper and vw when we need them? Sigh.) Do we still have any posters who live up Portland-way who could go to the courthouse? I’d just be interested to know if, in fact, they are sealed. If they ARE sealed, that means DY couldn’t have access to them either, right?

  13. Rose says:

    Note Horman’s old favorite, Farmville.
    “Practically any engineer who could persuade a Facebook user to download an app or to sign into a website using
    “Facebook’s popular “log-in through Facebook” feature would have been able to access not only the profile, behavior and location of that Facebook user but also that of all the user’s Facebook friends, developers said.”: Facebook’s rules for accessing user data lured more than just Cambridge Analytica https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/facebooks-rules-for-accessing-user-data-lured-more-than-just-cambridge-analytica/2018/03/19/31f6979c-658e-43d6-a71f-afdd8bf1308b_story.html

    My Univ has a new “Alumn” local club group chat listserve (similar to old yahoo groups made use of by ptas, orgs, etc, so aged out pta gurus have lept in). Digests come to emails U Alum membership office has, which can be seductive to comment on (I haven’t.) You can ONLY sign in to comment thru 1 of 6 apps, iirc Facebook, Twitter, Yahoo & ilk. A tony print disclaimer on that sign in page says it gives the list owners (the Univ) access to all of your contacts etc & info on that application. What a development tool! ordinary people all over the world have been opening the door to “vampires” for years.


  14. Rose says:

    the limited no of games I play, ie Candy Crush, have sign-ins thru Facebook where you play with ostensible friends (strangers). Does this mean not only the appls do, but the “friends” can, access ones’ contacts, likes, etc? (I don’t know.) Sounds very dangerous to me. One wonders what social game appls kyron played. Did that WIE (phonetic) thing connect to others in 2010?

    Not a gamer (at all) so unfortunately I don’t know about your candy crush question.
    Yes, Wii had online modules but you could set it to “friends or contacts”- and is a Nintendo platform as opposed to XBOX which is Microsoft OS.

  15. Rose says:

    @Blink. just using CC as an example of a sign in w/FB option (actually button us where one’s finger often stricks it, tho one can cancel, tho w/a person having a FB, might not cancel fast enough. idk.
    My question is with other hardware/software meaning WII, while Kyron/Kaine were set to family & friends (in 2010), if the family member or friendvyou play with does not have that setting, or they or a contact of theirs signs into an appl or downloads an appl, on WII did that expose the player thru being a family/friend contact of who he was playing with? And did he have his own Farmville acct?
    I checked and my U’s local Alum official U sign in are thru: LinkedIn, FB, Twitter, aol, google live, yahoo, msn live hitmail and you have to click a tiny phrase if you want to below those log in buttons that says “Find out more sbout social media at U of __ “ to read the disclaimer on another page this gives the U access to your contacts and content.

  16. Rose says:

    “In late 2011, it was revealed that an app called Klout was creating “ghost” profiles of children. These public profiles were not created or authorized by the children and were reportedly based on friend data from adults who had authorized the Klout app. “
    The Washington Post: I worked at Facebook. I know how Cambridge Analytica could have happened. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-worked-at-facebook-i-know-how-cambridge-analytica-could-have-happened/2018/03/20/edc7ef8a-2bc4-11e8-8ad6-fbc50284fce8_story.html

  17. Rose says:

    ot Yesterday first Walt Schaub signs off twitter,
    then you disappear.
    Bad day.
    learning from Austin bomber so much
    about FBI capabilities had mcso used them.
    Could have told each cell on site
    at Skyline in a window & it’s owner.
    Which owner had no reason to be there?
    If not, then abductor was an insider.
    Which owner did not declare his presence on The List.
    I’m thinking FBI could have told mcso who SZ probably is, but mcso
    waits to tie to Terri OR he has gone underground & can’t be found.

    Rose. As usual it is the “fine print” you always hone in on- a considerable feat considering (please tell me you are all healed my friend)

    YEARS ago in a conversation I had with an individual with knowledge and access re Kyron’s case- I relayed an example of some warrant and warrant return capabilities I had analyzed in a county fairly close to MC- (yes, I have to be intentionally vague).
    ONly to find out in 2010 those “warrants” were never requested by MCSO. Now that seems like quite the barnburner of information considering that whole “disinformation” about TMH cell pings (Sauvie).


  18. Rose says:

    ot @Blink. have you had surgery yet? It hurts just to read yr description. I had foot nerve pain
    once due to cellulitus (bug bite). Never known worse pain. Miracle you aren’t opiod dependant.

    I still have a week of exams and testing ahead. Surgeons were trying to develop a surgical plan where only one incision on the bottom was needed but have concluded that’s not possible. Miracle indeed as I know MANY people with similar or worse issues are.

  19. Rose says:

    I don’t know so much that mcso willfully put out disinfo re TH & Sauvie pings
    as that all of their deputies (& prob OSP too) were just flat stupid about the
    cellular – geolocation technology of the FBI. Just like us John Q Public.
    And maybe the FBI was keeping
    local PDs in the dark in 2010 anyway.
    I remember when cia kept LE and others in the
    dark about it’s satellite resolution capabilities due to
    its military applications.
    Am headed to MFOL at 5:45 am w/10 hrs prospectively on feet that
    I wore out today shopping for tennis shoes. Can you believe, DC
    Govt itself as a govt function is managing & deploying Volunteers.

    Occasionally, and I don’t say I know if this is the case here, but sometimes (in fact more frequently than not) search warrants for the type of data we were/are discussing are not granted. Sometimes carriers successfully reject inappropriate or overly broad subpoenas from either or both LE and grand juries. Sometimes investigators with zero experience or training do not understand what is required of the affi or the 4 corners doctrine. It is a pretty long list of “what if”s.

    The least of which is you can’t use as “prob cause” for other warrants what will end up being disproven from another.

    IE: If I say a suspect is located in an area due to cell pings when there is actually no tower to confirm that in the first place. Imagine- all the money you spent from all those taxpayers for things like o/t and manpower, equipment and search teams, task forces and the like- for it to be predicated on either a tactic based on a lie or say, an erroneous guess with a bunch of evidence to the contrary. At the end of the day- it is all discovery eventually.

  20. A Texas Grandfather says:

    Thanks for the link to the WAPO article about Facebook Rose. That article is exactly why I posted years ago that you would not find me on facebook or similar types of applications.

    My experience in dealing with data communications for real time control systems taught me the dangers of allowing uncontrolled access to data. This was long before the internet was built.

  21. A Texas Grandfather says:

    Everyone should consider that internet services are never really free. It costs a lot of money to develop and maintain those really big sites. This has to be recovered by some means such as advertising or selling data to third parties. Maintaining close supervision of data access requires a strong commitment of management and good design practices.

  22. T. Ruth says:

    Geeze, I’m so lame, I had to lookup what a “ghost profile” was. Which took me to something called a “catfish” which is a person on the internet posting as someone they are not. (I gotta get with the lingo, LOL)

    So just what was this Klout app doing with the information they gleaned and why? Are they a back-door pedophile operation?

    Oh my goodness. This IS scary, apparently if you belong to Klout you can log in ad view anyone’s “private” facebook account. This is from 10/27/2011:

    “I was on Facebook today, and my friend Tonia Ries asked about Klout’s ability to make profiles, when users haven’t connected their details with the service. I pointed her to the response from Megan Berry, Klout’s marketing manager, where she says if we don’t want to be tracked, then to make our social feeds private.

    Even though I feel having to make your social feeds private to stop any service from accessing it is commercial suicide, especially for a business whose primary custom is online, at least there was an option to stop Klout from grabbing your information.

    At least, until Tonia pointed out the example of her son.

    He isn’t on Twitter, and he’s not super active on Facebook. He hasn’t given Klout permission to access his account, and he has his Facebook privacy settings at private. Just like Megan advises.

    And yet here he is on Klout, with a profile and score of 38. However, that’s not the issue. The bigger issue is this. As you can see from the image (which I’ve blurred to protect his identity), you can clearly see that his Facebook icon is a live one (i.e., not shaded out), which means people can visit his Klout profile and be taken to his very private Facebook profile by clicking the Facebook icon.

    So, a private Facebook profile with no access allowed to Klout is now on their system and, worse still, allowing any public visitor to Klout to be taken directly to Tonia’s son’s private Facebook account?

    Doesn’t something smell incredibly rotten here?

    When looking into the issue more, Tonia mentions that her son commented on her Facebook wall about something. Tonia’s account is public – so does that mean Klout has activated an account for Tonia’s son, based on her being an “influencer” of her own son? All from one single wall post?

    Sorry, Klout, but if that’s the case, that’s bullshit, and you’re treading on very slippery ground.

    If you’re going to activate accounts for people who have their feeds set to private, and justify it by saying, “But they spoke to someone who has a public account”, that’s crap. That’s like saying, “Well, we’re going to telemarket call your son’s private phone number because we overheard you asking for his new number on your public phone.”

    Seriously, Klout?

    So, a word of warning to everyone. Your friends and family, who have absolutely no interest in social media, may be getting hawked as an active contributor to the Klout userbase, whether they have a private account or not, simply through their interactions with you.

    Something to keep in mind when hooking up your own information to something like Klout….”


    Deleting a klout profile:

    I don’t do much on social media but I do use google a lot, and if I’m reading Wiki correctly the two are connected through Google+, which I don’t use, but I do have a google email and that makes me wonder.

    Interesting that if you’re an unregistered klout person, in order to delete your unwanted klout profile you have to use twitter or FB to confirm said deletion, neither of which do I belong to anymore. Hmmmmm. So I guess in order to see what kind of “klout” I have, I’ll have to register and then opt out. ??

    WTH were these people doing stealing kids’ information?

  23. T. Ruth says:


    Forgot to leave the wiki link ^^.

  24. T. Ruth says:

    Cost of Portland Public Schools examination of sexual misconduct policy failures now at $300,000


    Would love to see the billing. Wth is this PPS “investigation” costing so much $$? This investigation should have been turned over the the PD. The crimes were criminal, and just like in Michigan/Nassar investigation people at the top did not do their jobs, were complicit or perhaps even involved. So why wasn’t it?

  25. Rose says:

    @TRuth. Iirc this was the Sch Brd Chair’s handpicked group (you know the Nike PR lady who hand picked the currect Troublemaking Supt) which was a fulsome Norm Frink retirement gig and the Dem go-to pol firm Stoel Rives. These attys bill at their hourly rates. For a small town like Portland that’s likely 600/hr. Say if Frink puts in only 20 hrs/month, maybe he gets $10,000-$12,000/mo. Plus their paras & so forth. Price tag doesn’t mean they’ve done much work.

  26. Rose says:

    anyone ought to be able to foia the billing statements.
    maybe that parent Kim Sordyl will. She seems pretty myopic.
    Addresses some things & completely ignores others.
    Like the severely disabled kids’ program being dismantled & disbursed
    in favor of the gifted getting their premises.

  27. Rose says:

    @TRuth. I forgot, Sordyl’s comment reminded me, the reason Stoel got those PPS bucks in this case is the partner managing the “retrospective & prospective” study of child sex abuse by PPS employees is their Employment partner who is also Nike’s outside litigating counsel, ergo close to Nike’s Brim, the Board Chair. Incestuous waste of money. Imo the Board should’ve just set a list of policies, told the Supt to implement with internal regs and staff training, & hold him accountable w/periodic reviews. Brim seems to be spending PPS funds as tho PPS is a Corp like Nike.

    BTW, where was the public PPS investigation of a fatal abduction of a young boy from a school building during school hours? And policy revamps? And why didn’t Sordyl and organized parents car then? Imp the latter was bcz of the bios’ sales job a (step)parent did it, and the school was not responsible.

  28. Tarheel says:

    Blink, is it too late to get warrants for cell phone and power pings for the day Kyron disappeared?

    Also for Blink, have you tried to obtain the depositions of Mathews, Porter, etc.? Will you be getting those? Can that be done on the computer or does it have to be done in person?

    It is. Especially with the specificity necessary. This type of support was available through multiple Federal agencies in 2010 so I have no idea why it was not requested (I just know it was not by MCSO- again, I wonder if this info did not prompt Staton). As an example, similar technology was used in the Holly Bobo case- in fact, at trial the expert and LEO had his own representation and was precluded from answering ANY questions that might compromise proprietary National information. I will say we don’t know if MCSO sought specific warrants relating to cell towers based on recommendations from experienced agencies and were DENIED either. They may have been. I can tell you that no MCSO newly minted detective had any training in cell data analysis at the time. I can also tell you that the failure of MCSO to secure cell tower data overall, not just specific to TMH is a major case error nobody is looking forward to disclosing.

    What I can say with certainty is that LE knows exactly where TH phone pinged (relative to the morning of June 4 2010)and at what time and it is not on nor near enough to be construed as being sent/received from Sauvie Island- who I published long ago does not even have a cell tower. I would also point out a very important fact that I have heard DY mention publicly. She said something like “they know from the GPS on her phone… I can’t tell from DY statement to that effect if she was given misinformation purposely or if she was misstating something directly but Terri did not have a smartphone.

    Sooooo…. it is an impossibility for any resource or agency to glean GPS data from it in the first place. What I CAN say, is that it is also very possible that MCSO or the DA did not present their analysis of TH available cell pings because of what a gj might interpret from them without all the info they need to do so. Ie: If I am defense counsel, I am going to be in a position to force the State to admit that the available pings and timing actually corroborate TH account and travels. It would also (if presented in some sort of assertion of truth of the matter)

    Unfortunately I cannot answer your question on MY access to those depositions outside of what I have already published publicly.
    Thank you for understanding .

  29. A Texas Grandfather says:

    Depending on the type of investigators PPS are using as contractors to do the investigation, the three hundred thousand may be only a third of what the total will be for a complete investigation. This investigation referenced by T.Ruth should be the same as an operational audit of procedures relating to how sexual misconduct issues are tracked.

    One thing for certain is a public school system does not have LE powers and therefore they should have notification to LE as soon as sexual misconduct is detected at any facility. CYA of misconduct activities is a specialty of most School Districts. They do not want any parental driven legal actions against them.

  30. Rose says:

    My 3/30 comment just thanked Blink for the skills she’s taught me here..

    Waiting for my phone to update software via computer, am just thinking about how the Hart family suicide/murders has exposed a national child abuse protection gap to me if indeed it exists.

    It seemed perfectly clear to me from the beginning that these women, or the alpha woman, could not tolerate the children aging and separating and individuating, from the family, and probably within their sibling groups. The two women had a psychotic view of “family” and psychotic fantasies about how families exist, and a dangerous view of “discipline.” It was obvious they went from a well-regulated CPS state to one of the worst, and I think I read there was a report in W Linn (not the oft blamed picture of Devonte bringing attention) that prompted their move to a further isolated setting. Moreover, after the MN founded report came from a teacher, no more school.

    So, it seemed to me, with a report of a child fleeing at l:30 am, looking several years younger than her age, with two missing adult teeth, and repeated reports of starving by Devonte, any CPS worker especially after the Calif incident of multiple starved siblings despite their look alike pretty facebook pictures and family, would have not done what CPS workers usually do on a first visit, leave a note saying I was here, and I will return soon. The worker should have been accompanied by a juvenile police officer and when the family did not answer the door (there would have been signs of life; she “home schooled”), the officer should have immediately gotten a warrant to allow entry and inspection of the premises for the children. It should have happened that day. Rather, again a worker went alone two days later and left after no response. An officer should have been there, a warrant should have been there. There was enough probably cause. That was the day the women set off on their death mission. They knew what happened before, a criminal charge, would happen again, because the children were old enough to interview, and to tell what was really going on. And, they had the example of the California parents who are rightly locked up with the keys thrown away. They did not want to be locked up. And, in their psychosis, no way would they allow their children to be separated from them. I bet the CPS note in the door that Friday, the second visit, said we’ll be back on Monday. That was negligent.

    But, here’s the problem. Family Court neglect and abuse cases are confidential. Each State is an entity unto itself. Probably each County is, within their County Court system. There should be a national registry anytime an abuse case is adjudicated with a guilty finding whether by plea or conviction, regardless of the sentence. And the first thing a CPS worker ought to be able to do is to check a national registry by the parents or caregivers names for any founded actions in other States. And, if that national registry access by State CPS/DHS workers is deemed too broad, then all local LE Depts should be able to access the data base across States and their Counties. And when any report involves abuse (the missing teeth, the physical emaciation) over and above neglect (failure to feed), then CPS workers should be trained it is mandatory before their investigation commences to have their LE partner check the adults’ names in that type of national database. While CPS cases are confidential, imo conviction or plea should waive any parental objection to a national abuse data base entry. If the local worker had checked a data base before going to the home, and one parent’s name was there as convicted in Minn, that worker should have gone to the home only with her LE partner, and if the inhabitants failed to cooperate, immediately that day contacted a Judge to sign a warrant giving access to the children in the home. So, Blink, is there these days such a national database. There was not decades ago in my day.

    If I understand your question Rose- there is no database linkage that allows CPS to review another state’s records in a real or near time environment. As you point out- these records are private and access to them is very limited by CPS or any other entity without a court order. There would have to be an open CPS investigation and even then is subject to its escalation protocols to even be entitled to such intel. I have worked on cases where LE is denied these records even in a situation of a missing and endangered child. Again, to your point, I agree that families become very familiar with system rules and I have long been a believer that differences in such social programs that (in the mind of) favor people that adopt a parenting or lifestyle that is fringe to the standards can and are a roadmap for relocation. Sadly, same is true with sex offender laws and punishment.

    I know in my mind, indelibly, I will always be haunted by the Powell childrens last moments and the sheer Hell their CPS case manager went through then and till this day- just following a court order.

    A footnote here on the Hart case. Being brutally honest, as much as I am trained not to form opinion until all the facts are in, I have no doubt in my mind this was a “Thelma and Louise” scenario (with the exception of the large vehicle filled with their kids) suicide/homicide scenario. I don’t yet know if the impetus is child welfare related or other potential nefarious activity on behalf of the Mom’s that potentially criminal in nature. Here’s the footnote- those of us that have worked extensively in accident reconstruction as it relates to death investigation can tell you that the vehicles “black box” and onboard computer systems combined with other tech resources can do WAY MORE to assist investigators than most untrained folks realize. It did not surprise me to learn of the start/stop/acceleration patterns telling the story here. I have used this information in the past and it is neutral, accurate and compelling.

    Lastly- Grace Packer. I am actually making a very large donation to her thrift store. What an epic and massive failure to protect this child over multiple occasions, spanning several years.

  31. Rose says:

    which brought my thinking around to the Horman home. I would really love Terri’s interview to be published and live in hope, but by now, with greater security, I wish she’d hold nothing back. No more Stormy NDA behavior. She’s not getting to see Kiara anyway I guess.

    We know there was something wrong by the behavior of the children.
    James’ acting out necessitated moving him on a kind of emergency basis when the alpha parent (Kaine) was not in the State. By Terri’s report, and no one has corrected her, after moving, he did well. Kyron had behavior of unknown etiology at school such that his teacher had complaints. In the home, he’d more recently had odd behavior. Kiara per Kaine was a handful. Now I think it was her age, teething, and personality (after all his live in paramour’s teen called her Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde behaviorally). And, Terri was very unhappy and intended to divorce the alpha parent. I personally do not locate the household troubles for the children in Terri. She seemed a devoted mother to Kiara and James, and an adequate parent to Kyron. That leaves the other parent. As for Kyron, some parents just do not allow separation and individuation as a child ages. Terri, and allegedly at times Kyron, wanted him to move to birth mother’s. Only one parent was opposed.

  32. Rose says:

    Presumeably Blink also read James’ depo in the Desiree case.
    Were there any clues as to what was going on in that home with
    respect to the children?
    Do you know if the Work of Art (tats) brought a child into the
    marriage or has had one?

    What I will say is that James has maintained a relationship with his sister, requiring Kaine’s permission. James and his Mother remain in constant contact and I would characterize their relationship as loving. He will not discuss it (they do not either) but James did not nor does he believe Terri is involved in Kyron’s disappearance. I think it is safe to say that Jame’s deposition was a definite non-starter to DY civil case.

  33. Rose says:

    I suggest the area where the body was found was determined by his phone whereabouts after the disappearance.
    I think the fbi & Fed govt had this ability in 2010, & well before. I
    believe they could isolate all phones registering presence at Skyline between 9-11 am.
    Each shoukd then have bedn tied to the owner & cross referenced with the List.
    imo The problem in Horman was the focus on Terri & her whereabouts
    to guide searches rather than focusing on the identification & tracking
    of the unknown male not on the list.

    Here’s the thing- the way those warrants work generally and then in order for a carrier to “comply” based on their required policy, MCSO would have had to draft and attest a very precisely worded prob cause that they DID NOT- and not only that, they did not preserve the option within the timeframe necessary. So- that ship sailed long ago. I say again- anyone suggesting their is/are cell phone pings belonging to any device TH may or may not have had on June 4th 2010 that contradict her travel account for that day is being untruthful. I would go a step further to suggest that the cell ping data made available to MCSO actually corroborated TH “travel” to the extent it is legally able to. (ie- you can prove where a phone was, to a reasonable standard via triangulation but not really “a person” per se, it only pings with activity, requires triangulation/Azimuth reads, etc).

    Here is an intentionally vague example of a case I worked on with no cell ping data initially, and the warrant was rejected at the deuces tecum level. Subject A was being told there were cell pings indicating he was in a different location than stated- and in this case the location put the subject in the proximity of a crime. After interviewing subject A at length, I determined that there was an area of road construction he encountered that was the subject of a public grant. You can already see where I am going with this, lol.
    Fast forward (because specifics are confidential and in some cases proprietary) to me being able to prove through a warrant return that Subject A was exactly where he said he was, when he said he was, and not only did the phone pings corroborate it, but I was able to now locate corroborating eye witnesses. Moral= do not use BS or known trickery on a suspect when it is unknown, false, or worse.

    In 2010- the way to draft the cell tower data warrant was twofold. WHat a judge would give access to upfront, and laying the foundation for the follow up warrant. Once again I will say this was a major error in not handing over the case to the FBI then and now.

  34. Rose says:

    imo Yracking Terri was because the Youngs & mcso
    believed the male handed Kyron off to Terri.

  35. A Texas Grandfather says:

    In regards to the technology of cell towers and black boxes in vehicles, they are very helpful to investigations if the appropriate people are trained.

    I can remember the difficult time a group of lawyers in our computer club had with ignorant judges in the Harris County, Texas courts to allow laptops or small notebook computers into the courts. When the judges finally relented to being trained on these devices and saw their potential for good in their courts, the problem was solved.

    The early GPS systems used the global positioning systems from military satellites. If it was not military, then there was an algorithm that was in effect to off-set the actual co-ordinates by a particular amount. The closest distance was six feet.

    In 1992, I helped develop a hand-held data collection device that ran applications via the Windows operating system. Its main purpose was to provide the GPS locations of equipment for pipelines and power lines. Today, a smart phone with GPS and a proper application can do everything that unit did and more.

    It is the same with the black boxes in vehicles. It began with the first real computers on a chip that were used to provide computer controlled combustion for the engine. GM used Intel products while Ford and others used Motorola products. Ford actually owned Motorola in the 1930′s and they were so successful in the early days of portable radio that Ford “spun them out” as a separate company with ford holding a large chunk of the stock.

    Most vehicles today have five or more computers to provide electronic combustion control and actual glass cockpit functions for the instrumentation of the dash along with GPS data to track the vehicle location for the road services that are by subscription. The GM “on star” program for example.

    As memory densities have increased over the years for data storage, more and more functions are being captured and the data stored in SD card memories. Smart phones of today often have an internal micro-SD card slot with storage of 256 GB.

    All of the auto and other vehicle manufacturers have black box systems for data acquisition and control. The John Deer tractor company even has an equipment ID system that can determine if a part from another mfg. is being installed in a repair situation.

    The large problem in today’s world is teaching the LE community and the courts about the fast paced technology of computers and phones so they can understand what is needed to help them with their daily work.

  36. T. Ruth says:

    It seems pretty obvious the Hart’s were avoiding a visit from CPS. Wasn’t it reported that it was a situation where “the lights were on but nobody was home”. When that’s the case, isn’t there some sort of action CPS is required to take? Like contacting LE for a welfare check or something more? IDK, but one would think there should be some way to check on the welfare of minors, when custodial parents/adults are unresponsive, whether intentionally or otherwise, and not just leave an “Arnold note” like I’LL BE BACK!

    I mean if someone was concerned enough to call CPS in the first place, then why would the situation ever be put on a back burner BEFORE being investigated. Sad.

    I would add that very often (as you know) that CPS has the authority to interview the kids at school, school activity, or actual anywhere outside the home (maybe not church, lol) I am going to assume then the kids had very little time outside of the home- which should ALSO be a red flag.

  37. T. Ruth says:

    It was reported that both these women (Hart’s) had jobs outside the home, has anyone heard what they did for a living? Just curious, because usually when one is home-schooling children, one of the parents is home doing that job.

  38. Rose says:

    So there is no national registry of those convicted of the domestic violence of child physical abuse where convictions are available to LE in other States? Well, there’s David Hogg’s next cause after sensible gun laws pass. Probably about as many children die yearly due to lack thereof. I remember Reagan (actually Gary Bauer who was free to do his thing under him) deregulated a lot wrt State adoptions and foster care and cps. Probably things have worsened since then in States. It was formerly a “model laws” approach suggested w/carrots to adopt by State.

    Anyway, there are 3 levels of CPS involvement, Blink, and I’m saying a national registry with nonconfidentiality should exit only for the third. First, there is the initial investigation. certain no of days to investigate, then it’s passed on to a continuing unit (or at least it used to be) which also has a certain time limit (or did). In either unit, if “founded,” doesn’t mean it proceeds to family court. If it does, Family Court might put kids in foster care, and thereafter do periodic reviews, but that’s not a criminal adjudication. One of the Harts went through the third stage: criminal process. That involves a trial or a plea. She did a plea and received a sentence for physical abuse. That is the third stage where I submit conviction by trial or by plea should result in placement on a national registry for other States to tap into When a fresh report that involves physical abuse comes in. Law enforcement is involved in some level at that stage, if criminal charges are filed, not merely CPS. I believe a criminal conviction (just like any domestic violence conviction is going to come to preclude gun ownership at least for a time) blows the confidentiality thing. Never get this done nationally though until States’ AGs want it and Counties’ DAs and LE Chiefs want it, and they never will, because it would reduce by a lot the number of abusers that would plead out and the govt would have to expend trial resources.

    The interesting Hart thing is a dau said Jen did the physical injuries (which at age 6, with fists, was enough to lacerate a liver and kill) but Sarah quickly copped the plea. Jen also drove the van. Was she the alpha parent and Sarah the passive cooperator with Jen’s psychotic notion of “family”? I thought the second sib set with Devonte’s in particular severe behavioral challenges (he was a drugs in utero baby apparently, like Cruz)was the straw that broke the physical abuser’s back until I read there was an earlier 2008 report on another girl by Jen reported to cps with “belt marks” on arm. Any ONE of these kids would present a severe parenting challenge. The social workers who so readily put a hard to place SECOND sibling group with an overburdened far from financially set family were insane. There was supposed to be a home study conducted in MN by the State HS, and followup there after the adoption with a report back to the TX Court. Whoever did Set 2 after the 2008 incident call to CPS in the State of MN should be fired. Pretty much this group functioned like a cult with a couple of the kids struggling to separate and report to someone in authority. The odd thing is during Sarah’s probationary period, the home should have been well supervised, and supervision should not have been terminated merely because probation was finished. Although there are time limits, the MN DHS CPS should have interviewed the children alone for check ins. And dropping out of school promptly without a home schooling plan filed with the State is one item neglect can be charged for. MN should have. I think suspicions were not acted on because this was a married female couple and no one wanted to arouse the LGBT community by overscrutiny. At the least as well, when they left the State, the next address should have been determined by dr lic and local cps called to go do a welfare check with private interviews of the kids. This is a prime case to get a national registry established of convicted physical abusers presenting it as domestic violence against minors, and no one is paying attention such as the attention paid to Parkland in my opinion because these are black and were likely neurocognitively disabled kids.

    I am going to agree with you that given the levels of diversity here it is likely they (CPS) may have had concerns about allegations of impropriety, targeting, racism, etc. Here’s my thing though- those same issues should actually act as a sort of assumption that the kids needed stronger oversight as to their standard of care in the environment.
    It is certainly not an area of expertise for me in terms of intervention- but I do know that 6 innocent children were just murdered by the parents they trusted.

  39. Rose says:

    Bet they not only had watched Thelma & Louise, they had prechosen that exit plan if they were investigated again. Imo they had a preformed plan with that general chosen cliff location and were headed directly there for that chosen purpose. Too bad modern vans have that child locking door feature so no child could escape. But I could seen Jen killing any severely uncooperative ones like Hannah & Devonte back at the homestead, out of kindness of course.

    All I hope at this point is that they drugged them so were asleep at the time. I do not allow myself to consider the fear they experienced, the sheer terror of it if not. If I were a betting person the tox reports started this proper investigation.

  40. Rose says:

    Neighbor said Devonte was allowed outside to take the garbage cans out. That’s how he could ask 4 food.
    at one time an initial unit (which should have 24 hr staff unlike the continuing unit) had 24 hrs to make first contact. Left a business card & probably a note to cover the worker’s ass in the record. Would have tried again next business day, and did. (Fri to Mon iirc) Then the next day. Long as they kept leaving proof of the contact attempt the worker thinks they’re covered. Depends on the worker. I remember going back late at nite with a policeman for a home not answering by day. And we came from the rear.

  41. Rose says:

    they had gone to the Bay area twice to visit the
    woman met online who reported them to OR CPS in 2013.
    So they knew the stretch of road they chose for a Family Final Solution.

  42. A Texas Grandfather says:

    T. Ruth

    I agree that one of the “parents” was at home while the other worked.

    Since home schooling does away with all the wasted time in public school systems, four hours per day is sufficient for all the basics and more. In a home school environment, the older children help teach the younger ones. This was the model of schools when the one room schools were in existence. This system worked very well up to the time of early decades of the 20th century.

    That would allow one parent to work a job at regular hours and the other to work a job in the evening hours. If that was the set-up, one of the parents would always be present.

  43. Rose says:

    Smart women. Woodland is about as far as one
    can get in Cowlitz County from CPS headqtrs in Kelso.
    I wonder if neighbors followed this online Cowlitz guide & did both?
    If so, County LE needs an investigation.

  44. T. Ruth says:

    I’d certainly vote for a national registry, Rose, it’s a great idea. I think you hit the nail on the head about Jen being the alpha. I’ll take it a step further and suggest that she may have been abusing Sarah as well, possibly not physically (size mattered) but other ways. If this had been a heterosexual couple, I think that possibility would have been high on the list of investigators. One would think that no matter the sexual preference, a cps investigation would have been looking into that exact situation.

    It’s a shame to think that preferred sexual choices and race would have anything to do with NOT properly investigating a potential child abuse situation. I hope that was not the case here. Seems balls are being dropped quite regularly these days, when it comes to protecting our youth.

    Btw, I hope you all had a Happy Easter/April fools day!

  45. erose says:

    Rose, I just have to chime in on what you said upthread about the state these women were living in when they pulled this off. Mine. Washington, the state that learned nothing from Josh Powell. It floors me. We have learned nothing here. I have a friend, a retired elem school teacher who told me that CPS will not respond until and unless there are 3 complaints made on behalf of a child, so she and her co-workers would “back each other up” if you know what I mean. Our state flag should be a baby with a black eye. I am disgusted.

    A local radio commentator has broadcast that one of the back passenger doors was open and his speculation is that maybe one of the older children tried to escape before the car left the road and didn’t get out safely in time, however 3 did get out after impact. I guess that’s plausible. I wish there were a data base as you suggest.

  46. Tiberious says:

    Speaking from personal experience as a resident of New York State. We had a situation in my family with a non-blood related child that used to be part of my sister’s life until she separated from the child’s father. We kept in touch with him as he was only 12 when they parted ways. Long story short he left a message on my sister’s answer machine that was garbled but we understood enough to know that he was frightened and it appeared he was in danger of some sort (his father hungout with some unsavory folks) we tried calling him back with no success. We then called the police and they said sorry you didn’t speak directly with him so there is no basis for your concerns. We then called the 1 800 abuse line and were basically told the same thing. The next step we took was go to the police station in person and explain the situation. We were told to go to the police station that was in his school district which we did. We try to get them to call the school to at least see if he made it that day and they told us because we weren’t related it was none of our business to know if he was in school or out sick. We tried all day and went to every agency we could think of and in the end it was to no avail. I say this as a cautionary Tale that people not automatically think neighbors or friends don’t take notice when something appears wrong.

  47. Rose says:

    one knew this one, just not how much. $ was the motive imo for adoption #2 of three.
    and there that BPD was withholding food. A few banana is hardly a breakfast.
    A national registry of child abuse
    convictees could have alerted TX, who couldn’t have undone the adoption
    but could have stopped payments, maybe leading to a take back.
    The reason the motive was to adopt rather than get foster care payments from MN.
    another public policy issue. anytime there are ongoing payments, there must be ongoing supervision.
    altho any DHS ongoing supervision whether foster care or adoption is laughable.
    An “Interstate Compact” facilitates these out of State adoptions.
    States put out shopping books with pictures & thumbnail bios.
    Iirc long ago the biggest books were TX & one of the Carolinas.

    Rose- for me, I guess an average of $27K a year for 6 kids is low. I can tell you that in the very little amount of fam law support I do- in most DI2KS primary custody cases the custodial parent receives that. I completely agree with everything you said, I am just having trouble with rationalizing the motivation for such a low amount of $$ in comparison to the costs associated with a family that size. I am aware of a few cases where a parent has killed their entire family(and then themselves) because of the potential of monetary loss. I would like to hope at the end of this there are clear lessons to be learned that effect policy and protect future children. Heartbraking.

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