Dr. Phil Show Hosts Missing Portland Child Kyron Horman’s Step Mom Terri Horman Over Two Episodes
I have been covering this case since Kyron Horman disappeared from Skyline School in June, 2010. Like most missing persons cases I have covered in the past, I am of the strong opinion that best efforts at the truth are the only way to propel investigations that, similarly to Kyron’s, have gone cold for one reason or another. This approach has worked in resolving some of my previous cases. I am proud of that. I remain steadfast to the integrity involved in those and future cases.
Over the past 10 months (or so) I have been developing an updated series on Kyron’s case to include my multiple interviews with Kyron’s step-mom, Terri Horman. Needless to say as she was the subject of at least three simultaneous cases before an Oregon court and remains a person of interest by the agency investigating her sons disappearance, this has been an arduous and sometimes delicate journey. Ms. Horman’s experiences during the ongoing investigation of the disappearance of Kyron Horman are critically important to propelling his case and with great hope- finding the truth about what happened to this cherubic and innocent child. There are dozens of sources, collateral interviews, forensic experts and legal analysts that also contribute to my series and have done so because of their belief that my motivation is to bring to light information and opinions in such a way that would almost “require” a focused review of Kyron’s case and the likely shaking of that proverbial tree everyone talks about.
Set to publish about 6-ish weeks ago I was asked to postpone the first installment of the series, which I did. I subsequently learned Ms. Horman was participating in the Dr. Phil program after she completed taping. Dr. Phils producers were well aware that Ms. Horman had interviewed with me extensively, and anticipated my series would be publishing information that was not known to the public previously in the days prior to her scheduled episode. When Ms. Horman conveyed to me that she feels obligated to speak out about “her son” in any national medium that will have her, I most certainly respected that. I still do.
While Dr. Phil seems like a gregarious fellow for sure, I have zero interest in being associated with his program, nor do I believe his shows content is designed to do any furtherance of investigation or truth. There is much concern (although I have no affiliation to the show whatsoever) that the timing of the publication of my series on the Kyron Horman matter might be interpreted differently or inadvertently contribute to the programs content or audience reactions. Not what I signed on for. A missing 7 year old boy six years running is not a framework for entertaining a target audience. He is not fodder for online social media bully campaigns- yet it occurs.
I will be publishing my series on Kyron’s case at a later date, in it’s entirety with no editing adjustments as a result of any of the appearances on Dr. Phil. I appreciate your patience and your understanding. Feel free to discuss the show below.
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@Rose – I have to tell you a funny story – OT – sorry.
My mom taught 3rd grade for ages and didn’t really want to retire. People loved her and she loved doing it. Dad retired and became a volunteer tutor at her school. She was in good health and created lots of teaching materials, etc.
Around the first of December, she had a particularly trying day when the kids were excited about something and weren’t listening and getting work done. I went to have lunch with her class, and when I walked in she was saying, “If you don’t listen and learn, you will end up being the dregs of society!”
They didn’t know what she meant or how frustrated she was, but she turned around and said to me, “I think it’s time to retire.” And she did.
She regretted saying it, although in a general way, it wasn’t exactly incorrect either. It wasn’t like her to talk that way normally. Fortunately, no one else heard her. A “term in the common culture” can be misused by others who are unfortunately less knowledgeable, or to stir up those unfortunately less knowledgeable and more easily manipulated. Apply to candidates, voters, soldiers, detectives, attorneys, judges, parents, etc. – as the shoe fits.
LOL.
B
“World Soldiers”, of course
good story mbs.
I bet those 3rd graders had mastered “doesn’t” not “don’t'”.
Actually I’m always on my kid to use short sentences and action verbs.
Good writing has never been my goal here.
—-
But thinking of Leader Kelly and her publically unaccountable account,
which she says was spent on searches, I nevertheless wondered today
wherher the account was established solely for searches and perhaps
out of a once expressed family resentment of Kaine taking
the original donation pool for his Foundation,
or if there were other financial reasons to advertise for say $30,000?
I began to wonder about Portland’s history (the mob and le corruption,
and whether any family (the bios & Terri) was in debt to a serious loan shark
who farmed out a contract due to lack of payment? Kaine had the steroid
involvement. Desiree dropped her job and went with bf to WA.
Reportedly she had a hospitalization which per blink was not for kidneys.
Maybe she had borrowed unwisely for medical bills. Terri’ had no income and reportedly he had required her to spend her settlement on his household. Any of the 3 might have borrowed
unwisely. Kaine’s $ solicitations are accountable tho to the irs unlike Kelly’s.
another pps “destruction of records” gambit?
http://www.wweek.com/news/schools/2016/12/21/portland-public-schools-cant-explain-how-it-hired-a-director-with-a-prostitution-conviction/
wow.
B
you’d think if a lead detective had batted out for 6 years
the bios would be marching for fresh leadership:
http://kval.com/news/local/inside-the-kyron-horman-war-room-11-12-2015
Looks like he had able help from the head of River Patrol, who
zipped right up under Reese to Inspector.
MBS
O/T
Your mom’s comments to the students is exactly what some students need to hear multiple times. It is the truth that not learning will limit your options in society.
My mom’s statement was “You only have one chance at education and don’t squander it.” She meant that for the opportunity to get the basics to build on. My statement to students is “We build a knowledge pyramid by learning the basics for a foundation for the future”.
Smart people never stop learning their entire lives. When I look back at the things we experienced and learned when I was a child, they have all changed. Communication was via a newspaper, radio, sometimes a telephone, letters and telegraph. No TV, internet, cell phones and other modern devices. Learning to read at a high level and critical thinking are the very skills needed in order to continue the learning process. This how the founding fathers were able to acquire the skills they used in producing the Constitution and other important concepts.
Few know that George Washington was out on his own at age eleven. That he taught himself to do surveying using the primitive “plane table” method over a four year period which allowed him to become the official surveyor for Cullpepper County, Virginia at age nineteen.
o/t Footsies (Blink) and teeth (ATG) are the worst.
http://www.wweek.com/news/schools/2016/12/21/portland-public-schools-cant-explain-how-it-hired-a-director-with-a-prostitution-conviction/
(snipped)
” But PPS told WW that it can’t say whether it knew about Gilliam’s conviction—because the district destroyed the record of his background check, including his copy of a form that asks applicants to self-report any convictions.
Westling, the district’s spokeswoman, says it keeps records of background checks on employees in the district’s archives for only three years, in accordance with state retention rules, due to the high volume of records it processes. ”
****************
If that is truly PPS’s policy, I find that absurd. In this day and age, there is zero reason to not keep records in computer archives for all employees until at least the day they are no longer employed, perhaps even as long as they are no PERS. Some teachers for example have taught school for decades, which would mean of course that way back in the 70′s/80′s much of the records would have been on paper, not available digitally. Those records should have been digitally scanned and archived, as routine maintenance. And who knows what kind of background checks were required back then anyway. It would seem prudent to me, that if for no other reason, those sorts of documents, whatever form they may have been in, should be kept in the event of any kind of lawsuit an employee may have against PPS.
Ridiculous.
RE: KHWS language and vocabulary.
You know, when I first was reading over there, I honestly thought all those “she done this” or “he done that” statements were the result of someone trying to be funny, or, like Trump, trying to conjure up citizens who commonly spoke that way. (For what reason I wouldn’t know.) But then, when those women spoke up in the courtroom video in Roseburg, I realized it was simply how they spoke. I never bothered to go there and read again, unless someone here gave me a link to check out. Not worth the bother.
*********
O/T Thank you for the congrats, Blink. I can’t get over the fact that I’m very likely to become a great-grandmother in the near future. These darn kids don’t let you forget how old you really are. LOL
T.Ruth
Congratulations on the Great-Grandchild on the way. Soon you may be like me and have to make a list of names and who their parents are in order to know how many. Our oldest great-grandchild is nineteen this year. The youngest is six months with a dozen in between.
T Ruth
In 1970 microfilm would have been the only choice for keeping proper records of personnel in a school district over a period of time. With the advent of scanners,CD and DVD technology thousands of records may be stored on a single disk all labeled for quick retrieval.
The big problem is proper management. Most school districts fail in that category.
http://www.kptv.com/story/34124837/terri-horman-arrested-for-taking-car-in-california
I just read Terri was arrested for car theft…oh my goodness…what in the world is going on….the comments are brutal
I wonder how this went straight from booking, even before a mugshot, to on air with kyle’s muggley ugg, toot sweet?
http://www.kgw.com/mb/news/terri-horman-arrested-in-california/377531389
No Cali reporters?
No other Oregon reporters?
There is a pipeline from each Cali LE booking to Desiree to Kyle imo.
LE stings directed by ? master LE entrapment planner?
Icing onthe cake for the fbi if she’s a muslim in disguise.
one indicia arrest news flows from LE to Desiree to Kyle is this is the
second instance where kyle published a phone interview with desiree
concommitant with learning of the charge. one indicia these may be fbi sting
plans is the rapidity from which arrest notice goes from different PDs to Desiree to Kyle.
Desiree is like a gobetween publicity mouthpiece.
Driving a car without permission is different than grand larceny. I think the source is LE for sure- their shared db’s update at booking.
B
this all seems to have been kicked off
when Reese’s master hand grabbed the
controls a month before Staton’s retirement.
Terri arrested in SF for driving a stolen car.Google it.
Eder strikes again with the least info ever:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.oregonlive.com/articles/19875809/terri_horman_arrested_for_driving_stolen_vehicle.amp?client=safari
She is not showing up in any booking logs in Marin as reported:
http://apps.marincounty.org/BookingLog/
Not in last 48 hrs list or by name
B
Oh, my, my… what’s next? This is for a stolen vehicle.
http://www.kgw.com/news/terri-horman-arrested-in-california/377531389
there is a kimberly horman in belvedere,
tiburon, CA, but she doesn’t seem
related to that chaotic family system.
https://www.google.com/amp/koin.com/2016/12/23/terri-horman-arrested-for-stealing-car-in-ca/amp/?client=safari
i believe the arrest addr was 5 N Point Cr Belvedere Tiburon CA.
Another caregiver situation putting her in a vulnerable status?
Good Lord already.
B
OT opinion.
One should never move in with a male floozie drawn by
a needy infant needing a mother’s loving care.
Just goes downhill.
If she’d not lost kyron by abduction, she’d have lost him to Desiree
during his adolescent separation and individuation
rebellions from her, the
mother figure, by moving him to Medford
during the all importsnt 12th grade transitional year.
Rose- I would love to get to a place where I/We understand the lessons from this case. My heart hurts for this wee man amidst all the drama.
B
@ Blink. imo it went from a sting planner (fbi? state police collaborations?) to arrest (sans mugshot, Kyle says, so imo they were still questioning her ***without an atty present***) to Desiree to Scoop-be-doo Kyle in a very short span. Follow ons claim $25,000 bail.
It would be darn easy to lure a penniless carrgiver to a livein “job” in a $2M home, ask her to run to the grocery, and immediately report one’s stolen car. What prompted a morning apb on a “stolen car,” suspect arrested probably at the job location at 1:32 pm.
Kyle’s personal involvement, mediated by desiree obviously, makes this arrest trey suspicious to me.
just hand her a bomb and send her to a Xmas tree in Portland Sqe. to establish she’s a terrorist,
That’s what the Portland FBI field office and PPB did/does, and Reese was PPB chief.
Imo we are seeing Reese’ fingerprints on this mcso “detecting”
piece of work.
it is possible some or all of these episodes were
designed to get her under questioning without access to an attorney.
The timing of this one –a Friday afternoon over the Xmas holiday–
with $25,000 bail–is remarkably designed for (1) cumulative
ermotional pressure, and (2) the high unlikelihood one of her attorneys woukd
be available to go to the jailhouse during questioning.
Houze has WAY underestimated MCSO/DA imo.
On the other hand, any LE that relies on Desiree
as a publicity mouthpiece gas poor judgment, is provincial,
and will eventually fail imo.
wrt “She is not showing up in any booking logs in Marin as reported”
Kyle didn’t get it from a booking lob, but from Desiree.
Desiree git it from?
Tony didn’t get it from a booking log, or police contacts?
Tony got it from?
Did mcso or mcda even know when Kyle reported it?
Who is notifying Desiree?
Why woukd Marin call Desiree?
imo a Master Planner called Desiree.
Was a very well connectedStatewide Sacramento LE Union Pres involved?
Was Tony involved?
When we know who shot this info for the second time straight to Desiree, such
that she notified kyle and gave him a concommitant
interview, we will understand much more.
Her storyline on interview is like a repetitivemantra like, as if prepped by the
Master Planner: “We are closing in…”
you’re right on no booking blink.
so after bringing someone in, can they
question them a l o n g time without booking?
is there a 24 hr rule?
if no mugshot per kyle, likely, she’s not been booked.
—-
why does terri not realize plans
appear to have been laid by ?
to repeatedly arrest her and be careful?
I have no earthly idea Rose
B
marin county:
“A mugshot, also called a jail booking picture, is the photograph taken by the police during jail intake processing. They take one face photo and a profile photo. Your full name and jail ID number will be in the photos, and they’re on file at the jail.”
http://prisonhandbook.com/1046/marin-county-jail/
My A in OneL Crim law was way too many decades ago.
“If I am arrested, what will the police do?
The police will search you for weapons, handcuff you, transport you to jail, and photograph and fingerprint you for identification. ” https://www.ohiobar.org/ForPublic/Resources/LawFactsPamphlets/Pages/LawFactsPamphlet-21.aspx
more than a brief stop, ie going to a station, = an arrest (what kyle/desiree bragged about).
there is a gap between arrest and jail/booking/mugshot (see above).
imo that gap filler is questioning at the station prior to booking into jail.
I hope Desiree/kyle’s premature publicity, saying as
yet no mugshot (ergo no booking) m, plays right into a
defense attorney’s hands. I do not like unfair play
with Constitutional rights.
How can it be that for six and a half years TH has been listening to legal counsel, following the rules, keeping the focus on Ky whenever she’s been interviewed and then all of a sudden she turns into a criminal? Idle speculation to anyone: do you suppose “something” is about to break and they need to keep TH “busy”?
Terri is out of custody in Marin County, bonded out.
https://www.vinelink.com/#/search
Type in her name Terri Moulton.
Desiree clearly did not know about the July 4 arrest
until it became public thru the pretrial hearing being on the Court calendar.
Desiree did know immediately about the DV RO which occurred in the 2 Mickelson deputies county.
Desiree knew with lightening speed about this arrest prior to booking and publicized it with an interview with Kyle again.
it feels like (imo) the #1 incident was unplanned and was likely a misunderstanding, while incidents 2/3 were opportunistically planned, and were perhaps another one of those typical Sgt Krafve-involved “stings” like he enlisted
people known to or close to Terri for–Rudy, then the DeDe solicitation.
If in jail over the Xmas weekend (extraordinary a booking occurred likely after 5 on Friday) without parents’ bank access to post bail), imo the next step is a cellmate “informant” will come forward to LE next week saying Terri told her she was involved in K’s kidnapping, hated Kaine, or whatever storyline the Master LE Sting Planner fed the informant.
One should’ve realized Terri should never have left Houze’s Portland practice zone.
Thought about that, shes out.
B
@kewl. re ” thatkewlgirl says:
December 23, 2016 at 10:47 pm”
I do not take this at Scoop-be-doo’s publicity face value.
Look at Desiree’s words: “We are closing in…..”
She couples herself with “Kyron’s LEteam in an action sentence.
She indicates these areests are by plan or design of that team.
That actively chosen “closing in” steps have been planned and executed
by someone in LE she has associated herself with.
If T is released, she needs to move back to Portland
under Houze’ wing immediately. Get on Greyhound.
Maybe McCulloughs would give her temporary transitional
housing as I suspect D has screwed Greg too, historically.
Terri needs to discard that “Caregiver” self-identity immediately.
Eugene shoukd’ve taught her that work option is not only
foreclosed forever but dangerous. She needs like DDS to get an entry level office job,
preferably with the govt so protected. Try PPS entry level file ckerk. They’ll hire
anyone and cant do background checks.
wrt “….the source is LE for sure- their shared db’s update at booking.
B” Who is avidly tuned to a shared CA LE database after arrest but before jail booking and mugshot and entry into public database? It shot to Desired and Kyle concurrent with arrest. If that shared database extends to OR, then Tony? If not, either of the Sacramento Mickelson deputies? Or Kyron’s “LE team” sting planner/closing-in web weaver? Imo this arrest was expected and anticipated by Desiree this Friday afternoon. She was by the phone, not out shopping for presents.
Well, I don’t have a description of the vehicle so there’s that. But I have contacted a Sac source of mine who tell me the “traffic” indicates the vehicle in question is titled to Terri. So there’s that also. How do you need permission to drive your own car? Should be beyond interesting.
o/t: On the onset of this Holiday I am on 100% foot over heart elevation on ice 45 minutes of every hour and crutches to br only. As miserable as I am, and make no mistake, I am respectfully miserable in terms of comparisons to people that have it way worse than I, I would like to wish all of you that celebrate the birth of Christ as I do, a very Merry Christmas.
B
“Example of Unlawful Taking or Taking a Vehicle: Defendant was house-sitting his neighbor’s house and had access to the neighbor’s new Mercedes Benz. He really wanted to impress his friends, so he took the Benz for a quick ride and brought it right back. Defendant may be charged with Vehicle Code 10851, because he had no permission to take or drive the neighbor’s car. However, since his intent was to keep the car only for a short period of time, he is not guilty of grand theft auto.”
http://www.lacriminaldefensepartners.com/unlawful-taking-driving-vehicle/
a housesitter goes for a short joy ride example.
the statutory catch for Terri is a mere unlawful brief try out house owner’s wheels can be prosecuted as either a misdemeanor or a felony:
http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/legal-advice/ca-auto-theft-charge
Someone with an intimate knowledge of available CA statutes to craft an entrapment imo planned this for a gal who
loves cars and those who love them (ecker, kaine). All this and a bag of chips.
You’d think Terri’d realize she is a murder suspect and innocence is irrelevant.
Imo what the Planner was angling for was a period of lawyerless questioning (which she has a hx of falling for when her out-of-touch with reality brain tells her she’s innocenf and she just has to convince her interviewer) and a weekend cell confinement with a planted infirmant.!l
it was 7 N Point Cr
not looking back at Trulia, but iirc that’s the home recently listed at over $3m
& a big price jump from the prior conveyance.
And the arresting officer did opt that unlawful use of a vehicle be charged as a felony,
which the statute permits but is not the usual charge. Up to the DA usually and
turns on intent and other variables.
imo going on Phil was her undoing. It galvanized LE planners in Sept-Oct.
@TRuth. what is disturbed about Soldier and her followers is not “she done” and “she don’t,” but the fact most brief posts are filled with cursing, gutter sexual terms, and threats of extreme violence. And the worst female dehumanizing abusive gutter sex language is from women! There are known psychos there too. Didn’t t jones murder his wife, pleading accident?
sOT Harney Cty apparently has little use for deplorables:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/12/harney_county_judge_finds_negl.html
what has bummed me is WW’s nigel and others have recently copiously written about a State policeman (vigirously defended included in person in Cout by a now retired State Supr Ct Chief (laughable Chief), who lost his gin and job righteously despite Union repr for hitting his minir son, but Reese’s buddy and replacement Marshman did the same or worse yet was knowingly made PPD Chief by Hale.
that’s “gun”
my cataract eyes now have the largest ipad
but it intimidates me to unpack it.
hopefully my typing/proofing will progress.
i wish malty were reporting her ipad takes.
and NelMel’s pasta… for Xmas?
OT @Blink do they let you take a low dose aspirin daily to avert blood clot?
—–
just scored 2 free tall full Fraser firs at Lowes this afternoon!
dau helped me erect them just before leaving for church orchestra.
For years, including this year, when I mention a tree the husband rolls his eyes and replies
“Oh Lord.” It’s like Kaine’s: if the wimmins don’t do it, it isn’t done. Her bf is flying in
and now we will have a cheery decor.
That is awesome Rose!! No to the aspirin so far but I did get a good laugh from the Doc when I told him I feared recliner sores, lol.
B
Why would she drive someone else’s car?! With permission or not…doesn’t she have her own vehicle? To me, all these thoughts about someone planning all this or setting this up seems a little too conspiracy theorist to me. I guess it’s possible but I’m having a hard time believing that at this point.
I think we have no choice but to let this play out.
B
Rose
O/T
If you have an iPad Pro the large one will be 12.7″ diagonal. There is also a smart keyboard that appears to be a short stroke or membrane design. Connection is easy and it will give you a normal sized typing device. The iPad Pro has every bell and whistle one could want.
Blink
In reading your reply to Rose about your ability to get around. I know you have crutches. They can become uncomfortable to use and they tie up your hands.
I saw a woman in the grocery store using a steerable “Knee Walker” for a badly damaged ankle. The restriction of movement you now have by doctors orders will be lifted soon. The knee walker would be a good solution. The height of the pad is adjustable. Walmart has one at $129.99 with free shipping.
I also looked at another product called iWalk 2.0 that has a support surface and a single shaft to the floor. It straps around the upper thigh area leaving you hands free. It is $149.99 with free shipping,. Shipping times to me is four days, but you may be closer to the source. A woman making a review of this device indicated she could use it safely on a staircase.
I am listening to the Boston Pops Christmas concert. They are playing much of the music our band and orchestra use. Played six concerts in the last two weeks. Four with the band and two with the orchestra.
A Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year!
Bless Heart Sweet ATG!
xo
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
B
Just got the guests out the door and while waiting on the dishwasher for a reload I settled in to see what everyone has been up to today, and I sure wasn’t expecting this. What are we missing? Is this the unraveling of someone who has been under mass pressure, or as Rose suggests another MCSO sting, or someone with something else going on? Do things get weirder just before they make sense. WTH?
I read a few comments @ O, and I have to agree with a commenter that someone who got caught up in three court cases in the span of a year isn’t likely to be sophisticated enough to abduct a child without a trace. Is it poor judgement, trusting the wrong people, what? Someone who can’t afford much is making bail after bail after bail. The dichotomy slaps me in my face. My head hurts and I want to reach out to her, make me understand what we are missing here, and yet I know she can’t answer.
I am so grateful for all of you and our fearless leader who I envision hanging upside down in her easy chair. Wishing you all and Terri a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and may this be the year Kyron is found.
In reading the description of Belvedere, I see it is an island and home to two yacht clubs. Hard not to think of Sauvie Island and the proximity to Portland, and, or the water access Portland has to the Pacific Ocean. Wiki says Belvedere is the 8th highest income place in the US, and Forbes claimed it had the most expensive house in CA in 2005. You don’t just end up in Belvedere in a stolen car.
http://www.forbes.com/2005/02/28/cx_sc_0228how.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belvedere,_California
p.s. 1 car theft
http://www.areavibes.com/belvedere-ca/crime/
OT Wish I’d remembered the boston pops ATG, those who hear yr band are fortunate.
—-
On another channel, FB, someone said a portland tv “reported” (Fox — is that kyle kgw? if so twas not reporting but rebroadcasting from a concerned Medford citizen imo) that the car was hers, and it was the license plates that were stolen.
—–
yes, ATG. I determined to have that model when the conductor of a major music festival paired it with a professional mic set up to record for kid’s auditions. she knows a leading conservatory teacher who requires his studio to have it for sheet music, and I noticed the choir director-pianist-orchestra director at one of 2 churches we went to last night used it at the piano for all choir productions. I got a case with that keyboard last week $ 50 off bcz it is the ugliest bright purple imagineable. I am pretty upset at the prospect of many products being 10% more expensive like berries and veggies from SA, hondas, and computer products so felt I must buy now – and 10% off thru a college purchase.
I want the new year to start and end fast, say cramming 365 days into one. Then we, including Terri, would know our now murky fates.
@erose. seems way conspiracy theorist to me too.
but who could’ve predicted MCSO’s
Rudy sting gambit or Krafve’s solicitation of DDS for an
outlandish sting? And whatever it is, Desiree is in the briefing loop
with incidents 2 and 3.
—–
Soldier Stacey’s Site claims she sold the mustang.
if true, this is a different car titled to her in CA, and doesn’t a dmv
dish new plates upon car registration?
all I’m sure of is one has to beware
fake news from kyle, copied in O.
jacob H is apparently no longer with the public defender’s office
http://www.shouze.com
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Everything! And may 2017 be year of health, happiness and peace for all.
@Rose, Tarheel thought too conspiratorial, not me. After reading Blink’s interviews with DDS way back, I wouldn’t put anything past MCSO. I am leaning towards an unknown factor that TH is involved in, though. I know there are legit reasons for burner phones, but there are non-legit reasons, too.
Tarheel says:
December 24, 2016 at 5:18 pm