Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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NelMel, I applaud your post of 9/23/12 1:28pm. I have had the same questions that you enumerated. KH has given me pause to stop and wonder on many occasion and as far as motive, his seem to outnumber that of TH.
Additional red flag is the wall of hope and how quickly it was produced. I’ve said since the beginning there is too much commercialism in this missing child case. The tee-shirts. Websites. Koloring with Kyron. Car shows. Seriously? All of these parents seem more protective of themselves and self-promo than finding Kyron. Maybe there is something more but on the surface it all appears contrived.
And still I’m perplexed by “bring Kyron home” instead of “finding Kyron”.
How many years did you say it could take, KH? Really? Because If my child was missing, I think I would be thinking in terms of moments…not years.
“The Gift of Fear” is a very good read, recommended on another page of this blog. It delves into the minds of offenders, stating that violent criminality can almost 100 percent be predicted by a childhood of abuse, neglect or humiliation. Also states that those who we consider control freaks most likely endured a childhood environment of chaos, addiction or violence.
@ NelMel
As I read your post on Kaine it kept going threw my mind
How I don’t think Desiree will have anymore
Time with Kyron than she had before even if he is found
Kaine has his room ready
I don’t know any reason why I have to like , trust, or even listen to Kaine
To hope and pray for Kyron and Desiree
That is where I am at
I’ve never seen this extended video version of the June 9, 2010 interview with TannerP and his maternal grandmother.
The reporter says TP last saw Kyron around the same time TMH alleges she last saw Kyron . . . around 8:45am.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/06/09/dnt.missing.boy.friend.speaks.kptv
For as busy as LE is/was about fitting TMH to Kyron’s disappearance, I often wonder how hard they are working to fit several of these perverts who have been recently found – if they are also trying to fit them to KYron’s disappearance. One of them might just rat out a fellow pervert (if they hang out in the same circles)
@Ode says:September 23, 2012 at 8:28 am
http://sedonaeye.com/arizona-most-wanted-running-with-biker-gang
Could this guy be the mystery man in the picture at the Science Fair?
Jden says:
September 23, 2012 at 4:39 pm
NelMel, I applaud your post of 9/23/12 1:28pm. I have had the same questions that you enumerated. KH has given me pause to stop and wonder on many occasion
————
And he even buys clothes to fit an older Kyron. Very strange to me. How can he know what size?
-snip
Just the other day, Horman bought new clothes to fit a taller, bigger Kyron. Kaine Horman updates Kyron’s room as well, occasionally taking out toys he enjoyed as a 7-year-old and adding new ones.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/06/does_kaine_horman_think_his_so.html
Exactly what I wondered about a couple of days ago — if LE knows “stuff” and is just waiting to pounce, and the pounce-ee would be KH.
Nicely written, NelMel. I don’t remember if Blink was planning to include this view in her Parts 2 or 3, but hope so. I’ve always had the feeling that he was kind of an odd duck, but maybe that’s just my own perception. Sometimes the nicest people are kind of weird.
No stones should be left unturned; you just never know what will crawl out from under one.
And if you think about it, it’s entirely possible that he showed up at Skyline (only outside where Kyron would have willingly gone with him). (I think someone said that was NOT a possiblity)
There’s an absolute reason why LE isn’t more vocal about all of this. They probably know something that we only suspect and are just waiting, waiting….
Well, everybody involved has a fair chance to be The Bad Guy.
–and really, wouldn’t it be nice if Kyron finally comes back to his family, and safely?
@1. NelMel says:
September 23, 2012 at 1:28 pm
RedRose says:
September 23, 2012 at 7:10 pm
(snipped)
There’s an absolute reason why LE isn’t more vocal about all of this.
====================================================================
Yep. One of two reasons:
1. LE is absolutely clueless and has nothing, or…
2. O.M.G.
(jmo)
@NelMel
What parent of a missing child has the balls to kick out the local media from a press conference? And even if you want to, or have reason to, it is smart when your child needs all the press he can get?
Not only would KH be potentially stuck with child support and perhaps alimony, but he would stand to lose Kyron back to DY. The court would consider a divorce in the home of a child as a significant change in circumstance, opening the door for DY to petition the court and regain custody. Does he want custody of his kids, or does he resent paying child support to women he is no longer married?
Denial of any knowledge of the landscaper, RS.
-snip
“Just the other day, Horman bought new clothes to fit a taller, bigger Kyron. Kaine Horman updates Kyron’s room as well, occasionally taking out toys he enjoyed as a 7-year-old and adding new ones.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/06/does_kaine_horman_think_his_so.html
———————————————————
This may not be a popular response but..I think KH is out of touch with the reality of Kyron’s disappearance. I’d love to see this child walk back into our lives unharmed and thriving. Either someone conspired to remove him from the school; someone working at the school had a personal motive to take him; someone seeking revenge on either DY, TH or KH. Whoever took him did not have his best interest at heart. That scenario is too much of a burden for any parent to bear.
Kaine seems to enjoy all the attention he gets at the shows and interveiws
This just rubs me wrong
But I find it easy to turn him off
I wonder if he even realizes he has lost people along the way
Not everyone but a few like me so far
fwiw, after reading jden my immediate reaction was this was done by someone crazy & evil & sly as a fox and all parents do not fit all 3 variables. most of all, this seems the epitome of a sexually motivated abduction.
Imo Kyron is “undone” because the investigation’s leadership and vision were and are wholly inept and wholly unable to redirect, with the bios’ collusion whatever the bios’ motivations– good but simple (Desiree) or door open to ill (Kaine).
erose says:
September 23, 2012 at 8:48 pm
@NelMel
What parent of a missing child has the balls to kick out the local media from a press conference? And even if you want to, or have reason to, it is smart when your child needs all the press he can get?
————————————————————
Yikes, you’re right, I didn’t think to mention that in my rant.
The family, by then, already was blessed with heavy national reporting in the early days of the case. So why would a father want to drop kick part of that coverage out the door? Not buying the “make it about Kyron” thingy.
And no one in the media has really, seriously, analytically talked about him doing that, ever since. It rippled the pond, once.
Meanwhile, in Roseburg….
The involvement and advocacy of the community in Sharpton, and most of all her Mom’s sanity & leadership under grief, highlight for me the rural isolated quality of the Skyline school neighborhood. It was, in Kyron’s case, an absolutely dysfunctional neighborhood like a pocket of Appalachia imo where severe child- threatening crime can occur & goid ol boys and imo inept LE & apparent obstructionist DA leadership rule.
That little Tullahoma puts Skyline 490/PTA to shame imo. I know Skyline had a few leaders–here I remember Neighbor & Skyline Parent.
What Skyline parents & neighbors though were out in front in the public school forum, County Comm hearings, media, etc. showing leadership in this case? I don’t remember anything but bio followers and facebook sites. Not public leadership. Were all these parents afraid of SZ and retaliation to their kid, pta social pressure, adjustment to their principal & teachers where everyone has to be nice & go along get along? idk, not in their shoes. But I saw no public pressure from any Skyline parent but Tanner’s gm.
Sharpton kidnapping & murdef is not Facebook-site centric advocacy and emotion. It is real–bricks & mortar letter writing & phone calls. Maybe Kyron’s bad luck was to be abducted where people turn to Facebook & godlikeproductions which is really goal displacement.!
DY filed for divorce citing “irreconcilable differences. “What hasn’t been made public is the fact that, a month after filing for divorce, Young sought a restraining order against Kaine Horman, Kyron’s dad. At the time, she had a 7-year-old son from a previous marriage. In court documents, Young said she feared Kaine Horman would “remove our children from their residence.” It’s unclear whether the couple was living together at the time. Washington County Circuit Judge Donald Letourneau granted Young’s request, forbidding either her or Kaine Horman from taking the children without the other’s consent.”
http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12134-troubled_family.html
@cd. just thinking about the clothes & toys buying. To be crass, if I were Bunch, I’d be busy deposing what percent of Kyron’s clothes in the two years pre-divorce filing were selected & purchased (on his dime or not) by TMH or DY and what percent did he personally pick out and bring home? There’s a lot of posturing in this case by all social systems: KH, mcso, da, pps, keefer, prior fbi field office dir, media.
erose says:
September 23, 2012 at 8:48 pm
(snipped)
“What parent of a missing child has the balls to kick out the local media from a press conference?”
erose, this is what I recall, and perhaps Blink does as well?
A mfh sting was launched PREMATURELY because, allegedly, particular members of the media “somehow” got wind of “the landscaper” and particular media would not promise to “hold” the story when asked by LE.
LE felt they had no choice but to move quickly on a sting . . . KH was allegedly apprised of the media situation which allegedly made KH feel that particular media were not being “team players”.
Blink, does this sound familiar?
@Ode. last entry on this pg was a maroon car comment
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=9426.640
Purported history of sexual abuse in the Horman paternal family. Kristian states his grandfather sexually abused him. Was KH sexually abused? Statistics show that children of abuse often become abusers. Is he controlling because his childhood was out of control?
TMH states Kyron was wandering, staring off into space, seizures? Appointment with doctor to assess. Was the doctor appointment confirmed?
Child abuse and seizures is a very real combination:
http://epilepsytalk.com/2010/02/07/childhood-abuse-and-epilepsy/
Upcoming visit with bio mom. DY stated Kyron would cry each time he left them and beg not to go back to the Sheltered Nook Road house.
Review of DY open letter to TMH re “dire situation”:
“I’m probably the only person in this world who understands what you were feeling….. the frustrations.”
“I know too, what things were like for you, because I was married to Kaine once as well.”
“I truly wish you would have given me the opportunity to fix this for you.
I wish you would have told me how dire the situation was and given me the opportunity to make it right. I would have come. I would have gotten Kyron in a second. Just to make it easier for you.”
As long as we’re beating up the bio and step bio, adding to NelMel, it’s also just never made any sense as to why those two headed over to the gym almost immediately, as though nothing unusual had occurred. Really ODD, like in WEIRD.
The ONLY good thing is that if KH actually does have Kyron stashed somewhere, and maybe is also making secret trips to Roseburg with the baby, or Roseburg is coing up this way, is that maybe, just maybe Kyron will come home grinning and smiling and all OK. (Like maybe the two of them are trying to flush out vermin for LE).
We can only hope.
I still don’t get the gym thing “act as though nothing happened…”
@NelMel says: September 23, 2012 at 9:30 pm
erose says: September 23, 2012 at 8:48 pm
@NelMel
What parent of a missing child has the balls to kick out the local media from a press conference? And even if you want to, or have reason to, it is smart when your child needs all the press he can get?
————————————————————
Yikes, you’re right, I didn’t think to mention that in my rant.
The family, by then, already was blessed with heavy national reporting in the early days of the case. So why would a father want to drop kick part of that coverage out the door? Not buying the “make it about Kyron” thingy.
And no one in the media has really, seriously, analytically talked about him doing that, ever since. It rippled the pond, once.
Meanwhile, in Roseburg….
The gym thing was prompted by investigators to monitor the couple in a setting where they were alone, in the same vehicle, and wire the house. It was an investigative strategy although I do not know how it was presented to them.
B
http://pdxtraffic.blogspot.com/2012/09/burglar-found-sleeping-in-kitchen.html
or
http://www.oregonlive.com/north-of-26/index.ssf/2012/09/washington_county_deputies_fin.html
The name that popped up was Cristian Villarreal-Castillo. I just remember seeing the name “Villarreal” here, but it’s probably a common name, so doubt there is a connection. FWIW
@wpg
I dug this up from WW. Were both the O and WW planning to run the landscaper story? What about the other particulars that KH laid out? I can understand your point, but I still think there is a point to be made that he was not using the media to his advantage to get as much attention on Kyron as possible. Why no cameras, no recordings, and off the record unless otherwise agreed? What does the media know that we don’t? Is that why we hear so little?
snips>
Today, Kaine Horman and the Youngs sat at the head of a table in a room filled with more than two dozen national and local reporters for print, TV and radio. As the meeting began at 10 a.m., Kaine Horman started out by explaining “the agenda.” This wasn’t going to be a typical press conference.
Horman said the family’s goal was to make “the story” about Kyron. With news of the divorce and investigators homing in on the stepmom, media coverage (including in WW) has increasingly focused on Kyron’s troubled family.
First came Horman’s “ground rules,” as he described them. No cameras. No recordings. Everything was off the record and couldn’t be reported, unless agreed otherwise. Horman made everyone in the room agree to these rules before proceeding. And so this roomful of reporters consented, in essence, not to be reporters.
Horman then laid out how the meeting would go. They would take questions, make some phone calls (presumably to investigators, to find out what they could say in their answers), then return and make an on-the-record statement. But first, Horman wanted all the reporters he didn’t know to introduce themselves.
Horman said the family didn’t like The Oregonian’s coverage and wanted them to leave. Horman said the daily had failed to be a “team player.”
I introduced myself and said I’m with Willamette Week. Horman said the family has the same problem with WW. I agreed to leave. And so the paper with the second-biggest circulation in Oregon was also kicked out.
ABC News convinced the family to make an on-the-record statement in front of one camera, with the tape available as pool footage for other reporters. After more than an hour inside the church, the reporters were sent outside while the family stayed in to prepare a statement.
http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-1034-kyron_hormans_family_boots_ww_and_the_oregonian_fr.html
NelMel- wow, excellent post. Wholeheartedly agree.
Oct ’11. Under heading “school Community”
peer to peer verbal harrassment
http://www.pps.k12.or.us/schools/skyline/files/mskach/10_11_11_Skyline_PTA_Meeting_Minutes.doc
erose says:
September 24, 2012 at 3:57 am
@wpg
I dug this up from WW. Were both the O and WW planning to run the landscaper story? What about the other particulars that KH laid out? I can understand your point, but I still think there is a point to be made that he was not using the media to his advantage to get as much attention on Kyron as possible. Why no cameras, no recordings, and off the record unless otherwise agreed? What does the media know that we don’t? Is that why we hear so little?
____
erose,
Thanks for posting the WW article. It reminded me when first reading it back in July 2010 that my thoughts of KH were also one of a controlling, wth-does-he-think-he-is humiliating media professionals in front of their peers when his son was missing, etc.
Only when the mfh story finally broke publicly, shortly after this bizzare behavior and the failed sting, did the alleged media “back story” follow.
The “back story” was only briefly out there, and I seem to recall Pitkin denying the allegations, which may have had some connection based on his upcoming article of interviewing TH outside the home at Sheltered Nook and their conversation turning to the property and its maintenance.
One media Editor, and I don’t recall whose or who, issued an online rebuttal to the allegations. The online rebuttal was only up for a short time, but I did read it before it was gone (don’t remember the contents other than it was, imo, intense).
Also don’t recall which media broke the mfh story.
Re-reading the WW article on the “booting out”, it’s possible KH wasn’t told which media had got wind of the landscaper, so he lashed out at those who wrote about the family in a negative light. His right of course given he is Kyron’s father, but it obviously caused negative reaction and attention.
It sort of makes sense that KH would not be apprised of which media, because, imo, how would media “get wind” of the landscaper if not by someone internal to or connected to LE? What a mess.
RedRose says:
September 23, 2012 at 10:08 pm
(snipped)
“The gym thing was prompted by investigators to monitor the couple in a setting where they were alone, in the same vehicle, and wire the house. It was an investigative strategy although I do not know how it was presented to them.”
B
——————————————————————–
That makes perfect sense. A child is missing. LE would look at the family first, including wanting to create situations that might produce people making statements away from the press, away from the home, etc.
Again, however, why did only TH get blasted for going to the gym and not talking to the press?
Over and over and over this comes up for — why.just.her?
Because once LE locks in a theory they work toward producing evidence to feed the theory. The best do not, because they are trained to exclude. I am not knocking LE, they do the best they can with what they have.
That said, I am repeating myself.
One of the best investigators I know, who also happens to be a BOC contributing editor when caseload permits taught me one of the best rules of investigative analysis.
“If you cannot scrap everything you have developed no matter how large or small in a case when a new piece of evidence alters the working theory and start all over, you have zero business in the field.”
It took me some time to really work that into my discipline, but it should be gospel.
Hands down in every cold case I have ever worked to a successful conclusion this was a problem, and remains to be, in those that remain cold, like Kyron’s.
B
erose says: September 24, 2012 at 3:57 am
Malty says: September 23, 2012 at 6:12 pm
———–
My God! Between Kaine controlling the press and Intel (via his letter to the employees) me thinks his big concern is what will come out about HIM and his lifestyle. Did the press make promises that keep them from publishing things we wish we didn’t know?
Malty, you are spot on! Kaine’s statement about “having his room ready” bothered me on Desiree’s behalf. I think he was sending a message to her.
Was Kaine involved? Does he know more? Did HE let the vampire in? We don’t know, and neither does LE. I have to assume that he passed his polygraph with flying colors in order to get a pass on an intense investigation.
@NelMel
Yep, good job, NelMel. I don’t trust him either. You got me wondering, though.
Desiree Young obviously thinks Terri took Kyron and did something with him. I am wondering if Desiree Young ever considered the possibility that Kaine took Kyron and did something with him. It’s apparent, at one point in her life she was worried about him doing exactly that, along with her other son as well. After all, she knows her ex-husband, what does she see/know that would make her think that is an impossibility now?
***************
I wonder if Pitkin lost his job because of his run-in with Kaine? Interestingly he went into the private investigation field. Wouldn’t it be ironic if he is now working for Houze? Heck if he lost his job because of that report, he might work for a nominal fee, relishing his new assignment.
******************
Why don’t either of them, Desiree or Kaine, mention SZ? Blink tells us they know Kyron left with someone else other than Terri. Why don’t they ever mention SZ? Did LE tell them not to…….why? Why would Kaine Horman go to that school in assembly and tell them how safe it was if he knew that his child left with someone other than Terri? None of it makes sense to me.
http://www.examiner.com/article/kyron-horman-update-interview-with-sheriff-s-office-urges-people-to-return-questionnaires
It is interesting going back and reading some of the old articles. This one is from June 21, 2010, an interview with Office Lindstrand. Almost every relevant question she is asked, she says she cannot comment because because it’s part of the investigation. Except this one:
http://www.examiner.com/article/kyron-horman-update-interview-with-sheriff-s-office-urges-people-to-return-questionnaires
Question: Is Kyron’s uncle’s arrest for child molestation in Seattle, Wash., part of this investigation?
Lt. Lindstrand: Yes, I can say that it is part of the investigation.
********
Weird that she can confirm that this is part of the investigation, but nothing else, all the other questions asked of her relevant to the investigation were no comment, so why was it okay to discuss this one?
And why was it part of the investigation? Could it be because Kyron’s uncle fit SZ’s description? Or was it part of the investigation, because LE found out Terri’s description of Ky’s behavior was accurate and they had determined Kyron very well could have been being abused? Why else would this be part of the investigation, if not one of the two reasons? Anyone?
@Blink. What new piece of evidence in the last 2 years altered the
working theory of Terri as master planner?
The fact that their is no evidence she was.
B
@wpg says:
September 23, 2012 at 9:52 pm
Wpg, I don’t recall reading about any of this “premature” MFH sting reporting, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but I just don’t recall it. Gonna look back at some notes. Maybe Blink will answer.
If anyone *planned* for Kyron’s disappearance, then it is possible things did not go as planned. Anyone can have an alibi when the abduction occurred, therefore, anyone theoretically could be involved in his disappearance.
If any family member was involved, we have to ask what they hoped to accomplish, because right now, no one is with Kyron. If a family member was involved, it seems that this backfired somehow, because it is hard to imagine that the end game for any of them would be to eliminate him.
Apparently an unknown male lured or took Kyron from the school. The question becomes whether he acted alone, or in concert with anyone. If he acted alone, it will be difficult to solve this. He could be dead or long gone.
It seems that the theory that Kyron was stashed came from somewhere. Why would someone stash him? For his safety? Why would someone want the parents to think he was stashed?
When I said, “He could be dead or long gone.” I meant SZ.
In this interview Kaine Horman is asked about his relationship with Kyron. He says it was great of course, and he states here that he walked Kyron to the bus stop every morning. http://www.katu.com/home/video/98077594.html
This bus schedule shows the pick up at Sheltered Nook occurring at 8:19 a.m. http://www.pps.k12.or.us/depts-c/bus/bus_out.php?school=SKY&upload_date=4/27/2010
The morning Kyron disappeared, Kaine indicated he left the house before Terri, IIRC he said around 7:45, and Terri arrived at Skyline around 8:10/8:15 a.m. Anyone recall if Kaine ever mentioned, in any of his accounts of that day, that he was required to go in early that morning for some reason? According to his interview above, he says he didn’t usually leave for work until after 8:19 a.m. Hmmm?
wpg says –
Also don’t recall which media broke the mfh story.
——————
IIRC – Maxine Bernstein wrote the first mfh story for The Oregonian and OregonLive online. She did not name the landscaper because it was said that LE asked the media not to. Blink named him. To date, I’m not sure any of the regular media sources have named him.
MBS- LE did not nor would they request the media withhold Mr. Sanchez’s name. It was an editor decision.
I believe KATU linked to my article, after the news director asked my permission to do so.
B
T. Ruth says:
September 24, 2012 at 1:34 pm
Question: Is Kyron’s uncle’s arrest for child molestation in Seattle, Wash., part of this investigation?
Lt. Lindstrand: Yes, I can say that it is part of the investigation.
Why else would this be part of the investigation, if not one of the two reasons? Anyone?
************
imo, it was a part of the investigation due to 2 possible reasons
1. If Uncle spent alot of time with Kyron
2. LE put out a statement shortly after uncle’s conviction that there was a “very long history” of the abuse within the family. (still looking for the link) So, with that and Terri’s claim of Kyron’s behavior statements- almost any forensic psychologist would want to investigate and rule out those family members.
NelMel says:
September 24, 2012 at 11:22 am
Again, however, why did only TH get blasted for going to the gym and not talking to the press?
Over and over and over this comes up for — why.just.her?
—————————–
@NelMel – Because she was the one who put it on a public social networking site, JMO, Kaine was talking / has talked / is talking to the press, and he didn’t post a status update about going to the gym. I believe this is why she was blasted and he wasn’t. (Not saying I agree or don’t agree, just my opinion of the most logical answer).
TY. I just do not understand how MCSO came to the “working theory ” TMH was the Master Planner in the first place based solely on a failed poly question, and acrimonious relations & history with DY, KH, and an illegal alien landscaper she’d called 911 on pre-incident. It sedms to me in the public school settinv it was premature to have any sole working theory. We know she had acrimony with KH because he whitewashed himself by saying TMH & therefore the marriage had improved recently.
January says:
September 17, 2012 at 2:56 am
“There is/was definitely a volunteer list.”
B
================
Blink, do you know if there were any men on it? Thx
Yes.
B
——————————————–
Before we get way to far downstream from this I am driven to attempt clarification.
For June 4, 2010.
Was there at least one man on the school volunteer list?
Was there at least one man on Ms. Porter’s class volunteer list?
Was there at least one man identified as a group chaperone on the school list?
Was there at least one man identified as a group chaperone on Ms. Porter’s list?
I have never seen it, I am just aware of some witnesses who signed it that day so I know one existed.
B
@NelMel – Just to be clear in my post above, I was trying to say that what she was doing (going to the gym) was made public, and easy to access, so since she broadcasted (not sure if that’s a word
the trip, I don’t think people knew Kaine was with her at the time (specially if the they didn’t see the video clip).
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/day_of_kyron_hormans_disappear.html
Before the split, Terri Horman was vocal about the way authorities were leaning on her, the missing boy’s parents said.
At one point, they said, she complained to them that investigators were pressuring her about where she went after dropping Kyron at school. Terri told them that investigators were confused about where she traveled, because her story didn’t jibe with cellular phone records that indicated she traveled elsewhere.
In previous interviews, Kaine Horman said Terri failed her initial polygraph, walked out of a second and waited more than a week before agreeing to a third.
Kaine Horman and Desiree Young said Tuesday that they, too, along with Tony Young, were interviewed by police and took polygraph exams. They said they believe investigators ruled them out as suspects within four days.
“They were working with me pretty heavily up to the polygraph,” Kaine Horman said, “and I think the polygraph was my last step.”
*************
A couple of things I didn’t catch the first time I read this article.
So, it was Terri Horman herself that said LE said her cell pings didn’t match where she was. She freely gave that information to Kaine, Desiree & Tony. Wonder what Tony thought when he first heard that? As a police officer, I’m sure he knows that LE sometimes lie to a person of interest. Wonder if he ever mentioned that to Terri? Also odd, that LE never, ever confirmed this information publicly.
Interesting that Kaine Horman says he was also being heavily interviewed by LE, but he believes that because he passed the polygraph he is no longer suspect. Wonder if Tony offered him any information in that regard?
Sorry to bring up old stuff, but almost every time I read an old report or see an old interview I find something I missed. Blink is right, they should start all over. Maybe the civil trial will open some doors that had previously been closed. I hope.
Because the information I’ve been reading (here, almost exclusively, because I think integrity is here) tells about the “controlling” personality of KH and because [I read] that he started to butt heads with older stepson James, who was then sent south, what is the likelihood that Kyron might have started to backtalk about going to live with his birth mom and it wouldn’t set right with KH, who wanted to be in control. And what if Kyron started to ‘act out’, too, and it would be more than the bio dad could take, and maybe Something Happened, Accidentally?
And maybe the “control” at those first news conferences had to do with KH worrying about Things coming to light – maybe involving a sleezy lifestyle with stepmom. Or someone threatening TMH or KH and following through?
Since everything should be looked at ….
maybe he DIDN’t pass his poly with flying colors, only THINKS he did, and LE didn’t say anything different, just let him think he was smarter than the machine (in engineer talk, it’s “just a machine” and people are smarter than any ole machine), just let the spotlight stay on wifey #2. And maybe LE is just waiting, waiting …
Hope this is all wrong and he is just a dad missing his son, but you know about those rocks and stones – never know what will be under one. Blink is right when she just posted:
rules of investigative analysis.
“If you cannot scrap everything you have developed no matter how large or small in a case when a new piece of evidence alters the working theory and start all over, you have zero business in the field.”
It would be interesting to have been at a get together at Skyline a couple of years ago and have everyone there and just listen to their opinions.
@January says: September 24, 2012 at 12:42 pm
erose says: September 24, 2012 at 3:57 am
Malty says: September 23, 2012 at 6:12 pm
Was Kaine involved? Does he know more? Did HE let the vampire in? We don’t know, and neither does LE. I have to assume that he passed his polygraph with flying colors in order to get a pass on an intense investigation.
It would make common and complete sense for KH to be NOT worried about Kyron if he was sure he was safely stashed with Unka K up in Washington somewhere (who promises to never hurt or abuse him — and will let him stay there hidden for at least five years…)
…and wouldn’t Kyron be willing to go with Unka K to see something?
@T. Ruth says:September 24, 2012 at 1:34 pm
Nothing has come from LE regarding the polygraphs on anyone.
How is it known that TH failed or showed deception on one and ONLY one question?
I don’t believe we have ever been told from a verified source what she failed, the reality is, for all we know, she could just have been told that. It’s not like Rackner was ever going to produce a poly result and she knew it. LE is under no obligation to tell the truth in an investigative interview.
They cannot even use it to get a warrant, but Houze has his reasons I hope to learn some day.
B
Re NelMel re:KH—It’s called Intel—(hear the little chime here) with the money and means to protect and exert influence in the media. I have had some of the same ideas drift through my thinking on this subject. Power and Control. Who has it, who doesn’t.
Has there ever been any proof this couple
KH and Terri lived a sleazy life style
Out side of GLP
Look at the pics
Does that look like a sleazy life style
Just to be fair
Audio interview,
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/day_of_kyron_hormans_disappear.html
Desiree says Terri emailed her 3 or 4 times during the day from her computer. Reporter asks so, from her laptop? Desiree says yes and Kaine Horman interrupts and says “she does not have….”, wonder if he was going to say smart phone? Kaine says yes, it was from her account.
Desiree also says, that one of the emails was actually from the night before, but Desiree didn’t answer it until Friday, so that’s actually 2 or 3 emails sent on Friday.
She says one email was about the science fair and telling Desiree she will find out when she can pick up the project so she can see it. So I would guess that one had to be before Terri went the school and asked the teacher (or emailed her later) when she could pick up the project. (Thursday night?) We know that there was one was on Friday with a picture of Kyron at the science fair. Desiree mentions one of the emails is about the t-shirts “totally irrelevant” “which I haven’t gotten yet”, says she needs to talk to Kaine about that at some point. (about t-shirts??) We know from Gina Zimmerman that Terri asked her about t-shirts that morning, so I’m guessing the email Desiree got about the t-shirts was after Terri spoke with Zimmerman. Desiree says the other(s) were “about other things”. Hmmmm? Not the science fair, not the t-shirts, I wonder what the email was. Maybe, when are we meeting tomorrow? Maybe Desiree answered “we’re not”. IDK, but if Terri was emailing Desiree during the day, how could she have been out having coffee, out shopping at several different stores, driving the backroads to soothe the baby, going to the gym and emailing at the same time? If Terri didn’t have a smart phone how could she be emailing while out and about? Seriously, I don’t know, how does that work? Did she have her laptop with her and did she stop at wifi cafe’s 3 or 4 times to send emails? This would have to be added into Terri’s timeline if true. Just wondering how this would be possible?
Also, in this audio Kaine is asked about Terri’s drinking. Kaine refers to back in 2005 when Terri was doing her body building, he says back then she was drinking behind his back and drinking her self to sleep at night, and then in September 05ish she got a DUI and that’s the only time he knew about it. (Well before Kiara entered the picture.) He’s then specifically asked by the reporter if she still has a drinking problem? His answer: “I have, I don’t have any facts, this will be pure speculation, but I’ve had a couple of people come forward where we’ve stayed with them for some time, and they’ve made comments that they noticed their alcohol levels were abruptly down while we where there, and this was since the DUI.” (quick transcribe, may not be exact)
Why did he not tell the reporter all the stuff he put in his divorce documents about Terri passing out each night on the couch and leaving Kiara up all night? He has no facts, it’s all speculation? WTH? All I can think of is what Bunch/Houze will do with that one.
Keeping in mind that these comments by KH were made the evening of Thursday, July 8, 2010:
snips from WW article dated (Friday) July 9, 2010
“She’s been really vocal, her friends have been really vocal, about all these polygraphs she’s taking,” Kaine Horman told WW. “Well, they haven’t been forthcoming about the results of those tests.”
“He said the first time Terri Moulton Horman took a polygraph she was “very vocal” among friends and family that she’d failed. Kaine Horman says she made excuses, and he gave her the benefit of the doubt. He declined to say what questions allegedly tripped her up.”
“Several days later, he says, she agreed to take a second polygraph but walked out before the questions began. Around 10 days later, she finally agreed to sit down again for a lie detector. Once again, he says, she failed.”
“Kaine Horman says those failures were the most significant evidence driving him toward the belief that his wife was involved in Kyron’s disappearance.”
http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-977-kaine_horman_kyrons_stepmom_walked_out_on_polygrap.html
Thank you, Blink. for reminding us that when a new piece of evidence alters the working theory, we need to be able to truly start all over” So often, we find the tremendous breakthroughs come when one or two people SERIOUSLY ACT upon their instincts and the AUTHORITIES LISTEN even when it might sound outrageous. In Idaho, it was a waitress at Denny’s that realized a young girl needed help…and the authorities responded appropriately rather than ignoring the lady!
As investigators consider or reconsider where the evidence leads, perhaps a combination of training, experience, and divergent thinking will help solve Kyron’s situation as well as other missing children.
If we combine our BEST abilities, we will be able to provide schools, parents, volunteers, churches, sports groups, and any other children’s activities with better ability to screen employees and volunteers to improve safety. With today’s technology, we have the ability to protect our children and prevent many specific traumatic situations such as pornography or kidnapping,
Depending on the age, activity, ability, and location of the child, we also can teach the child to recognize and report danger signals as well as activities or adults that make them feel uncomfortable.
Most schools have requirements for teachers to teach about abuse in general. After following “mandated teaching to prevent abuse” and reporting situations as required by law for teachers or principals, from my experience I have found that it is VERY RARE that the child reports abuse to either parent or family member. The school nurse used to be a very valuable resource but cutbacks of basic services, we have fewer professionals to determine and respond to children’s needs.
In a recent article about the California probation department, it was obvious severe issues of personnel have not been appropriately resolved allowing situation like Phillip and Nancy Garrido to go unrecognized even though reported by neighbors. Often success or failure is related to one individual…or one link in the chain that does a great job or one individual that ignores information and fails to act upon or report evidence.