Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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Interesting link referencing the mfh, TH’s ldt and computer records:
http://www.kgw.com/news/Hormanprobelatest-97771724.html
Thank you Venetia for that link about TH possibly applying for a PPS job.
I apologize for the length of this post; it’s been a long time coming.
Just like many of you, I have read and thought and speculated over the last few years about what happened to Kyron. I have sifted and sorted through the information and opinions, changing my mind many times.
But there are some things that have consistently resonated with me. The following is all just my speculation, based on my sense of what TH may have been thinking, and also based on Blink’s idea that TH “let the Vampire in”.
Following is my theory of what TH was thinking; nothing new really, JMO, just my speculation.
What TH was thinking:
Before June 4, 2010:
“Skyline is so lame. I can’t believe how they run this school. Hey, SZ, can you believe it? Why, when I was teaching at other schools, they never would have done things this way. This school is so disorganized. They think they are so special, SZ. This is just a little country school out in the boonies, but they think they are better than everyone else.
And Kyron’s teacher! Why, she doesn’t even know what she’s doing. And she can’t even hear! I’ve had to tell her the right way to do things, especially when it comes to disciplining Kyron. Huh. SZ, I should be teaching that class! Skyline should have hired me to teach here! I could teach circles around these other teachers! I thought I was going to get a job here, that’s one of the reasons we moved here, it would have been perfect! But no, SZ, they didn’t even give me an interview.
Skyline was supposed to be such a good school, but it’s not. Why, it’s not even safe! This old building, with all the different levels and entries and exits. They just think they are so special here, because everybody knows everybody else, they think they don’t have to do things the right way, and they can slide by being disorganized and unstructured and unsafe. If I taught here I would set them straight! Why, SZ, it would be so easy for a kid to just get lost in this school, to just disappear….and….and….hmmmm.
They wouldn’t even know….it would be so easy. There are no security cameras. A kid could….for example, with the Science Fair coming up, it will be poorly run, as usual, with people coming and going, they don’t even make sure people sign in. It would be so easy if……do you see what I mean, SZ?
What if…..not that I would ever do that, SZ, but just for the sake of argument, do you see how easy it would be ? I mean, if you were going to disappear a kid from here, how would you do it? That would sure show them. Their precious school. And that would solve my problem with Kyron…..Kaine…..Desiree….LE….RS….Talk about killing 2 birds with one stone. Not that I would actually do that…but if someone did it, it would be so easy. What’s that SZ? I know you love me and would do anything for me. How exactly would we do that? Not for real, but just to entertain ourselves, how would we do it? It wouldn’t be hard. Hmmm…….”
June 4
“OMG. Did it happen? Did SZ do it? I mean….it won’t be my fault if it happens. I just came up with the idea. I didn’t mean for them to really do it. Not really. I was hoping SZ would do it, but I never actually told SZ to do it. But….if they did, that would solve my problems. Better cover my butt just in case. If it didn’t happen, I’m ok. And if it did, I’m still ok. There won’t be any evidence it was my idea. SZ won’t tell them. “
Presser with all the parents
“Uh oh. Oh no. I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to! It’s not my fault! I’m sorry! Are you mad at me? It’s not my fault! It was an accident! Do you still love me? Oh no. Oh no. I didn’t think SZ would really go through with it! I was just joking! SZ wasn’t supposed to take me seriously! I mean…..it’s not my fault! “
All just speculation, jmo.
RedRose says:
October 3, 2012 at 4:12 pm
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/06/kristian_horman_kyron_hormans.php
Did anybody ever figure out if TMH could have been able to legally adopt Kyron, or was she always the non-family custodian only, not an actual parent to Kyron? Because if so, she could be held for kidnapping? Is that right?
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TH could not have adopted Kyron unless Desiree agreed to give up her parental rights and Kaine agreed to it. She had no parental rights of her own re Kyron. If she were seriously concerned about Kyron’s welfare, she should have contacted Child Protective Services and asked for help. It may not have been enough, but it was a starting place. As a matter of fact, since TH renewed her Oregon teaching license, SHE is a mandatory reporter. In addition, she should have told Desiree specifically what was wrong, and of course, Kaine should have told her as well.
Very interesting insight, Panda and thank you for sharing your thoughts. That scenario has entered my mind.
@Panda says:
October 3, 2012 at 7:37 pm
(snipped)
June 4
“OMG. Did it happen? Did SZ do it? I mean….it won’t be my fault if it happens. I just came up with the idea. I didn’t mean for them to really do it. Not really. I was hoping SZ would do it, but I never actually told SZ to do it. But….if they did, that would solve my problems.
**************
Hi Panda, glad you are posting your thoughts. Something, anything may lead to the truth. I’ve never heard any fact about Terri being turned downed for any job at Skyline, nor PPS, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Neighbor who was posting here and on SM specifically states she/he was just speculating about a possible job. Who knows?
Here’s what I want to ask you about your proposed scenario/theory: What specific problems would be solved for Terri if Kyron Horman, her stepson, was abducted? JMO, but I think Kyron’s abduction has done nothing but caused problems for Terri.
I truly believe the fact that you bring up the single most logical question in this has been what has kept TH out of an indictment. There is simply and unequivocally no “presentable” motive in what amounts to a case with tainted circumstantial evidence and devoid of any physical evidence a crime has ever actually occurred.
I don’t know about you, but not a lot of people with TH profile lining up to half nail themselves to a cross for a few years thinking it is a good idea long term.
Therein lies the conundrum. If my attempts to get down from this most painful endeavor will put me squarely back up with fresh spikes- aren’t I better off here?
B
Rose says:
October 3, 2012 at 5:50 pm
@MBS. imo any high level administrator needs a principal’s resume with time leading a primarily low-income, and primarily minority school of a much different type than Skyline as well as much larger than Skyline.
Moreover his current school is Middle (watch for the next step to be High School) and has many diverse nonprofit
partners on site to manage. I’m looking for him to hit Asst Supt level before he leaves PPS.
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@ Rose – your opinion is logical, professional, and covers what best practices are for administrative careers. I don’t disagree with you at all. You may well be right about the direction Keefer’s career goes. I’m just saying that isn’t always the way PPS works. The first thing they should have done decades ago was get rid of the practice that administrators’ contracts are confidential because HR makes unique promises to try to get people to come here, and they don’t’ always keep them, and the pay can be unequal in some circumstances for the same amount of responsibility. Also administrators have no union, so if someone doesn’t like you, you are stuck. One of the very best principals I ever worked with made the superintendent mad and left the district until that superintendent was gone before he came back to continue working in PPS. All he did was ask him to please get in line because he was holding up our graduation ceremony and another school followed ours. That’s it – there was no behind the scenes story, but I can tell you more stories that are similar.
So I’m not saying you are wrong, just that some of what PPS does or allows is not up to what my idea of the professional standards for a good district should be. Unless one knows which way the wind is blowing behind the scenes, it’s pretty hard to guess the reasons any particular move was made. I never wanted to be an administrator, so there are no sour grapes in what I say.
lyla says:
October 3, 2012 at 7:26 pm
Interesting link referencing the mfh, TH’s ldt and computer records:
http://www.kgw.com/news/Hormanprobelatest-97771724.html
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Very interesting. I had never seen that news report before. Thanks.
What I sense from that article is that Kyron wasn’t what they were scouring her “computer files” about. He of course was missing by the time they reviewed that kind of material.
Is this what has kept her free and clear in Roseburg — the fact that that the MFH, not Kyron’s disappearance, has not fleshed out?
Think: A MFH gone south, with LE thinking that TH’s attempts to have KH murdered are the key evidence they need to get a connection to someone — ANYONE — who was involved in that plot, and thus, might have taken Kyron because the murder of KH was not possible?
Are we looking at the wrong case? Was Kyron’s abduction a modification of the MFH?
There is no doubt in my mind that LE firmly believes that or TH would have been arrested.
B
@NelMel. I thought the abduction was supposed to be (per theories of MCSO & Kaine),
either a variation of the Kaine mfh (doing Kyron was easier, meaner or whatever), or a retribution
on Terri by RS for reneging & not paying after he’d lined someone up for the job. I thought the May contretemps with Rudy directed to variation 2′s door. Personally, knowing zero about this landscaper, I think he’s the sort of snitch LE shouldn’t have touched with a 10 foot pole for any case, and if he’s illegal, what’s he doing on the loose as a Portland small businessman?
@Blink. OK re-reading your comment. It’s like the abduction of Kyron in MCSO’s mind is the fruit of the poisonous tree which is the mfh, but dang it they can’t establish there was even a tree for that branch to grow on.
Did they do fallacious reasoning drills in high school English?
So then the whole stepmonster thing hinges on Rudy’s (an illegal alien lawnboytoy)’veracity.
Unless there is something I am not aware of , yes. Was one hell of a warrant that yielded a 911 call from the target. You don’t see that everyday.
B
@Panda. My understanding of SZ is that he’s an opportunistic organized offender, with computer competence & ability to go to ground,! who is sexually motivated, not a direct contact chat partner of Terri. but, perhaps, as is Beejay’s excellent premise, he fixed on Kyron because someone Terri had angered arranged for him to do the job. Blink’s emphasis has been this is a sexually motivated crime (meaning a pedophile).
Blink,
I am curious as to your opinion on what Desiree describes as multiple emails sent to various people that showed TH had a severe hatred for Kyron, a desire for him to be out of her life and “how she wanted to hurt him”.
Thank you.
I have not heard her say that specifically, but in a general context, I personally do not believe that what she was shown, and she was shown them, not given them, or given access to them as I understand it, was without authentication ( 9 agencies worth- I will take just one) I stand at “vaporwear” until they are. As much as I respect and support Desiree, I also note that Kyron’s father has never addressed his feelings on them, and I find that suspect.
Bottom line wpg- if le really expects me to believe that they cannot recreate basic IT information from the school , I have zero faith in any electronic alleged findings whatsoever.
One thing is for certain, in the civil suit, we will learn what the deal is with the “hate” emails.
They will need to meet a heavy burden for me personally to give them weight.
B
@ T. Ruth says:
October 3, 2012 at 10:30 pm
(snipped) Here’s what I want to ask you about your proposed scenario/theory: What specific problems would be solved for Terri if Kyron Horman, her stepson, was abducted? JMO, but I think Kyron’s abduction has done nothing but caused problems for Terri.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think it’s possible that TH wanted to prevent Kyron from revealing somehing TH was doing or involved in that she didn’t want known, and she was afraid LE would find out. I think Kyron had become a liability to her. Were the problems it caused worth it for her? It remains to be seen. She’s not in jail. So far, whatever she has or hasn’t done has kept her out of jail. I think she took a gamble and so far it’s paid off. I think that for her, being without her daughter and being a POI is preferable to being in jail, and she believed that’s where she would be if Kyron did not disappear. Also, I don’t think she anticiapted that she would become the main POI for this long. I think she figured she would be investigated and cleared. Again, just speculation. JMO.
Speaking on the condition of anonymity, a close family friend who has since been interviewed by the FBI, has confirmed that Terri Horman is pointing her finger directly at Sanchez. She has also stated that she and Sanchez had an altercation after she attempted to end their relationship in May which ended in a 911 call and a visit from Clackamas County Sheriff Office in the presence of Sanchez’s wife and children. While it did not result in any charges, Horman told the source that the landscaper was furious with her because he is not in the US legally. While blinkoncrime.com has not been able to verify the date of the alleged 911 call, we have been able to verify that Terri called her Mother immediately following the incident and told her that Kaine had found out about the landscaper she hired to do what she referred to as “her yardwork” and when she informed him that she could no longer use him because Kaine was making her fire him, he lunged at her with Kiara in her arms. Kaine Horman denies the couple ever hired the landscaper as well as any previous information as to his estranged wife’s possible dealings with Sanchez.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/09/09/kyron-horman-missing-case-review-and-birthday-wishes-to-the-frog-prince/comment-page-16/#comment-1623541
Is TH thinking, I had an affair, and KH found out, and I ended it, but I had to call the cops on the guy, and he got in trouble with immigration and his wife, and he was so pissed off, he had my son taken from school, and God knows what happened to Kyron and where he is.
And RS is thinking, I set it up for that kid to be taken from school, and now the cops want to talk to me, again, and I’m going to turn it around on that B*&#h. I’ll cut the deal, I’ll get the GJ immunity, and then I’ll get the heck out of Oregon.
Back to ya on “Exactly.” The authentication piece will be interesting.
And if they only get to the isp of the home computer…..
“I have not heard her say that specifically, but in a general context, I personally do not believe that what she was shown, and she was shown them, not given them, or given access to them as I understand it, was without authentication ( 9 agencies worth- I will take just one) I stand at “vaporwear” until they are. As much as I respect and support Desiree, I also note that Kyron’s father has never addressed his feelings on them, and I find that suspect.
Bottom line wpg- if le really expects me to believe that they cannot recreate basic IT information from the school , I have zero faith in any electronic alleged findings whatsoever.
One thing is for certain, in the civil suit, we will learn what the deal is with the “hate” emails.
They will need to meet a heavy burden for me personally to give them weight.
B”
Appreciate your opinions, Blink.
Desiree did say those words in a telephone interview.
I provided the media video/audio link not that long ago, but argggh did not save it.
Do have this other video link I found recently and had not seen before, of Desiree offering somber comments on the emails:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xj1r8b_a-new-effort-to-find-kyron-horman_news
Not hearing from Kaine isn’t suspect to me because he had not wanted to acknowledge the possibility that Kyron may be gone, and imo the emails could be very, very bad and could have been shocking compared to what had been a loving outward appearance – - – not contents like venting due to frustration or a bad- overwhelming-day kind of thing.
Not one sentence of those emails has been made public and that also gives me the impression of the seriousness of the content.
Like you say, Blink, we will learn about them in the civil case.
Thanks again.
It’s the FBI that has the superior IT skills, if I recall correctly.
I have the faith.
Depends on the application wpg, the secret service is leading the pack the days with the ability to and specialty of recreating ( may be wrong term) previously deleted data, and in some cases, even data that has been overwritten. I have no doubt they supplied the cell tower study in this case.
B
Panda says:
October 3, 2012 at 7:37 pm
snipped:
June 4
“OMG. Did it happen? Did SZ do it? I mean….it won’t be my fault if it happens. I just came up with the idea. I didn’t mean for them to really do it. Not really. I was hoping SZ would do it, but I never actually told SZ to do it. But….if they did, that would solve my problems. Better cover my butt just in case. If it didn’t happen, I’m ok. And if it did, I’m still ok. There won’t be any evidence it was my idea. SZ won’t tell them. “
Presser with all the parents
“Uh oh. Oh no. I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to! It’s not my fault! I’m sorry! Are you mad at me? It’s not my fault! It was an accident! Do you still love me? Oh no. Oh no. I didn’t think SZ would really go through with it! I was just joking! SZ wasn’t supposed to take me seriously! I mean…..it’s not my fault! “
All just speculation, jmo.
————————————–
@Panda – Thanks for you view of TH’s thinking. Although my view is a bit different, yours certainly fits with my estimate of her planning ability and level of maturity (lack of). Your comments made me think of a quote from Desiree in a 1-year anniversary interview (June 1, 2011). This was about 7 months after she was shown the “hateful emails”.
POSTED: 10:56 pm PDT May 31, 2011
UPDATED: 9:05 am PDT June 1, 2011PORTLAND, Ore. — The
mother of Kyron Horman says in the weeks leading up to his
disappearance, life inside his home was falling apart and he was
becoming his stepmother’s target. Kyron vanished from Skyline
School almost one year ago. Investigators say he was last seen by his
stepmother, Terri Horman, at an early-morning science fair.
Desiree Young, Kyron’s mother, said she believes Terri Horman took Kyron from
the school and then set a plan in motion to get rid of him. “I think that it was one of those things where everything worked out that day, but if something had derailed her, I think she would have given up what she was doing. But I think because everything fell in line, she continued with her plan, her checklist,” Young said.
Young said that Terri Horman blamed the boy for her troubles. “She blamed Kyron for a lot of her and Kaine’s marital problems. She blamed Kyron for a lot of stuff that was going on in the house. It was becoming very tense and it all came down to the weekend. It came down to that day and she was very angry,” Young said.
http://www.kptv.com/news/28090402/detail.html
Note: Desiree says, “I think that it was one of those things where everything worked out that day, but if something had derailed her, I think she would have given up what she was doing.” She also says “her checklist” which I think is an unusual term to think of and made me wonder if there was a checklist of some sort in the emails. I also think this helps to understand how Desiree could write the open letter to Terri and say that she wished she had come to her and told her how dire the situation was.
Again:
“It was becoming very tense and it all came down to the weekend. It came down to that day and she was very angry,” Young said.
Desiree seems to think there was anger that continued to build until that particular weekend and that particular day. Whatever had gone on before either wasn’t finished or Terri couldn’t let it go. Desiree also seems to believe that if anything had gone “wrong” – if the school had called Terri looking for Kyron, for example, or Terri’s parents had stayed longer in Portland, or anything else happened that could have gotten her attention, she would have aborted whatever she did.
Side note:
At that time, Kaine said he had seen the emails and called Terri a “master of deception” – I’m not surprised he didn’t react to the emails in the same way Desiree did because he had been thrown off balance by so many things by then. I think Kaine went through months of feeling like he didn’t have any idea what was going to happen from one day to the next, and at the same time not wanting to appear totally ignorant and clueless about his own family. Makes it tough to answer questions – which we have said he doesn’t do very well.
Oh, the Secret Service . . . did not know that.
Not to belabor this topic, but the electronics of the recipients of the emails would also be IT sources for examination.
recreating . . . “recovering”
Seems like RS is in just as much trouble as Terri even talking about MFH
And where is he today
Nobody seems to care
He should be locked up IMO
So did RS recant his story to save his azz
Or what
Did he go under ground
Where is he and what is his story today
wpg says:
October 4, 2012 at 1:46 am
Oh, the Secret Service . . . did not know that.
Not to belabor this topic, but the electronics of the recipients of the emails would also be IT sources for examination.
recreating . . . “recovering
Sunnybrook says,
Speaking of electronics, Blink spoke about the missing GPS that was reported stolen on June 4, 2010 as having significance..possibly one other thing to add to the list, of records going poof that day and people not returning to skyline/district the following week and beyond.
Prayers for Kyron and his family
One more RS post
Why is it no thinks he could have IT skills
Or is a pedophile
Because he is a illegal or a landscaper
Who knows his history
I know SZ is not suppose to be Hispanic
But how do we know for sure this RS is not the mastermind
Just one little curious thing I found about the AMW piece. A picture that was shown twice (I think) of Kaine, Kiara and Kyron had them sitting together with a picture of a John Deer Tractor behind them. It made me think again about “nothing runs like a deer” email comment. Bye Bye landscaper, hello tractor. As a wife that would make me very unhappy.
Rose,
I’m confused. You state in your post to Panda that:
“But Neighbor also made clear she didn’t know the Hormans and wouldn’t have known or recognized Terri if she saw her at school.
Therefore, I’d put even the PPS comment (which omits what job, what school, was it wired, etc) solidly in the random very distant rumor column.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But the SM link posted by Beejay has a reference to Neighbor stating that TH is an “odd duck”.
How can someone come to that conclusion without knowing a person?
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8661.235;wap2
The one called “Neighbor” claims to know Hormans…Neighbor referred to TH as an “odd duck”. Not sure what that means and they have not claimed a side either way. Just what I’ve read there.
So, in the:
TH lures RS with sexual prowess, has affair, complains about KH, breaks it off with RS in front of wife and children, calls 911 and risks his illegal status…
What do you think is the “knowledge of things ” Staton wished they didn’t know… the hate mails?
In that the MFH has not been proven, it’s possible that it was contrived by RS to cya and point blame at TH and that being the case, RS could have set up any pedo to do the job, possibly even at no cost.
This scenario would be compatible with all of TH actons, as IR. KH may believe Kyron is being held by pedo. TH would be sitting in silence, feeling innocent.
In this scenario, TH probably got a note or was called… we have your son… she frantically called DDS to help drive around to find him, finally hysterically calls KH and they go racing around SI, frantic. By school day end they both know he’s gone… agree to walk to bus stop as if normal… KH knows TH actions set this up but she’s his wife (first press conf) and stands by her… soon thereafter gets the (possibly bogus, although believable enough to cause alarm) news of MFH and decides now is the time to turn the cards and point blame on TH.
DY learns all that has transpired, through discovery, and how much time has lapsed without KH being completely honest – Jun thru Nov, and she cuts connections with KH.
Unfortunately, here the key is RS, which B has said, but how do you track back an illegal? He probably is not the one with high IT, it’s the pedo himself and he is unrecognizable to date.
If I had a child in that school district I would be organizing town hall meetings, contacting my elected officials and begin home schooling. Call me proactive, call me anything… but my children nieces, nephews, friends children were never out of my sight for more than one second that I could physiologically help and I sure would not entrust this school or its employees with the safety of my own.
I got thinking about Neighbor and decided to go back and look for some posts by Skyline Parent. For any of you that are interested:
skyline parent says:
October 30, 2010 at 1:38 am
Okay, this part is really bugging me:
“What law enforcement was seeking matters. Ms. Horman’s specialty was in teaching children with learning disabilities. She would have had access to confidential psychological testing, mental health records, medical documents, and possibly, CPS records, none of which could be disclosed except by parent authorization, or pursuant to subpoena or search warrant. Even though she had not worked in that area for some time, she may still have had such records in her home or on her laptop.”
Why on earth would we assume that a woman who had NEVER had a full time teaching position and hadn’t even subbed for at least 2 years would have these kinds of records? I call BS on this one. From what I understand from locals she didn’t exactly have an ongoing subbing relationship with any school. Most of the time they sent her packing after dealing with her for a bit. And even if that was her degree, I’m not sure she ever actually worked in special ed.
And I certainly don’t agree with all Kaine’s life choices, but I do understand his apparent inconsistencies to a point. I think most of us that were single past the age of about 16 can think of at least one relationship that seemed amazing and then soured very quickly for some reason. Suddenly that woman we thought was so much fun was really just a shallow drunk, or that guy we thought was the strong silent type is really an unfeeling jerk. Hindsight is 20/20 and at the end of a relationship we tend to exaggerate the worst in our former partners. And I really can’t imagine a worst ending than Kaine is experiencing. Perhaps he is exaggerating Terri’s issues, but I really can’t blame the guy. I’m not exactly remembering her with fondness either.
All JMO of course.
———–
Skyline parents says:
October 30, 2010 at 9:00 pm
“Ms. Horman works in special education. She does testing. This suggests she is involved in Individualized Education Program (IEP) evaluations.” – Where is this info coming from? How do you know that she actually WORKS inspecial education? I’ve never seen this.
“Ms. Horman’s resume says that she continued to assist in testing at Skyline from “September 2008 to present.” As such, she might have been involved in more recent testing, whether as a paid consultant or volunteer.” Absolutely NOT true. If this were happening – Ben Keefer and I would be having a talk – even BEFORE Kyron’s disappearance.
———–
Skyline parents says:
October 30, 2010 at 9:04 pm
10.beejay says:
October 30, 2010 at 7:22 pm
Someone was talking about how relatively small Portland is. I’m thinking how compact the Skyline community is, as well. And wondering now if Jill I. (who got the grant under which RS was hired at Skyline school) has possibly given LE info. as a witness: she must live practically next door to West Wind Farms, where DDS was working on June 4. And, the street they’re both on was one that LE wanted to find witnesses who’d seen that white truck on June 4 morning.
Jill is less than 1/2 mile from WWF, which is a 40 acres-parcel.
********************************
We’ve ALL been interviewed by LE. Every single solitairy parent and child at Skyline.
————
skyline parent says:
October 31, 2010 at 11:01 am
Marleysmom – Thanks. I was sure that was the case, but always nice to have it confirmed. Actually I don’t even have a special ed kid, but I hate the idea of that woman having that kind of access to info about kids I know. I don’t even like the idea that she volunteered (although actually her volunteer work has been WAY exaggerated)
———–
GraceintheHills says:
October 31, 2010 at 12:28 pm
21.Skyline parents says:
October 30, 2010 at 9:00 pm
“Ms. Horman works in special education. She does testing. This suggests she is involved in Individualized Education Program (IEP) evaluations.” – Where is this info coming from? How do you know that she actually WORKS inspecial education? I’ve never seen this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for providing this interesting information, Skyline Parent. I always look forward to reading your posts. I am not sure why Ms. Conner brought up the possibility of school records info on TMH’s computer. *IF* she is an intense focus of the investigation into the disappearance of her stepson, I can think of more sinister information they may be looking for (i.e. anything related to abduction, secreting individuals, emails to co-conspirators, etc.).
———–
Skyline parent says:
October 31, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Zeus – although no one predicted that kyron would disappear into thin air or saw anything that would justsify a call to child services, let’s just say that none of us that knew her would not have nominated her for mother of the year and leave it at that.
———–
skyline parent says:
October 31, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Ack – sorry for typing on my cell – that doesn’t make ANY sense. Here is what I meant to say:
Zeus – although no one predicted that kyron would disappear into thin air or (to my knowledge) saw anything that would justsify a call to child services, let’s just say that none of us that knew her would have nominated her for mother of the year and leave it at that.
———–
Skyline parent says:
November 1, 2010 at 4:58 pm
Lea – so after everything that has happened in the last five months you are taking what terri posts on linked in at face value? For serious?
Okay, I keep trying to be respectful and realize that I come off as mysterious. Not my intent. So I will tell you that I never saw terri mistreat kyron. However I also never saw her hug or praise him either. She just wasn’t very warm. And she had a tendency to stretch the truth. In all fairness, none of that makes her guilty. But it’s been my observation that the only people coming out and saying she wasn’t capable of harming a child haven’t interacted with her in years. Moo
————
TBZ says:
November 1, 2010 at 3:37 pm
@44.skyline parent says:
October 31, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Ack – sorry for typing on my cell – that doesn’t make ANY sense. Here is what I meant to say:
Zeus – although no one predicted that kyron would disappear into thin air or (to my knowledge) saw anything that would justsify a call to child services, let’s just say that none of us that knew her would have nominated her for mother of the year and leave it at that.
————
I also look foward to reading your comments Skyline Parent. I bet it is hard sitting on your hands and watching things that are posted on FB in regards to Mother of the Year.
Bottomline – Kyron is still missing and now we are headed into the holiday season and his dad and biological mother still are missing their son. As somoene not associated with the case, I know exactly where I was on the morning of June 4th – ie on Hwy 26 going to Seaside and remember my timeline from that day. And you can bet if my child was missing, I would take 100 lie detector tests, I would walk through hot coals, I would do anything that was needed to get him back to me as a mother. There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t think about Kyron. It also reminds me to give my 7 year old an extra specail hug and appreciate him even more.
————
skyline parent says:
November 1, 2010 at 6:34 pm
“I bet it is hard sitting on your hands and watching things that are posted on FB in regards to Mother of the Year.”
I stay far, far away. That’s why I read here. I may not agree with everything said, but people here are pretty respectful.
————
zeus says:
November 1, 2010 at 7:19 pm
skyline parent says:
October 31, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Ack – sorry for typing on my cell – that doesn’t make ANY sense. Here is what I meant to say:
Zeus – although no one predicted that Kyron would disappear into thin air or (to my knowledge) saw anything that would justify a call to child services, let’s just say that none of us that knew her would have nominated her for mother of the year and leave it at that.
**************************************
Thanks for the answer Skyline Parent, I appreciate it! It’s pretty much what I thought you would say. I didn’t figure she had made many BFF out of the other parents, but was really curious how others perceived her.
—————-
GraceintheHills says:
November 1, 2010 at 7:43 pm
35.Skyline parent says:
November 1, 2010 at 4:58 pm
Lea – so after everything that has happened in the last five months you are taking what terri posts on linked in at face value? For serious?
…So I will tell you that I never saw terri mistreat kyron. However I also never saw her hug or praise him either. She just wasn’t very warm. And she had a tendency to stretch the truth. In all fairness, none of that makes her guilty. But it’s been my observation that the only people coming out and saying she wasn’t capable of harming a child haven’t interacted with her in years. Moo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Skyline, I keep thinking of that audio interview in which KH and DY talk about TMH’s propensity for lying. It sounds like this aspect of her personality was pretty obvious to others as well.
I suspected all along that she was not particularly warm and loving with Kyron, especially after Kiara came along. I recall KH describing how strict and inflexible she was with her discipline of Kyron when he got less than stellar conduct reports from school. Thinking about this just breaks my heart.
————-
zeus says:
November 1, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Snipped from:
Skyline parent says:
November 1, 2010 at 4:58 pm
…… So I will tell you that I never saw terri mistreat kyron. However I also never saw her hug or praise him either. She just wasn’t very warm. And she had a tendency to stretch the truth. In all fairness, none of that makes her guilty. But it’s been my observation that the only people coming out and saying she wasn’t capable of harming a child haven’t interacted with her in years. Moo
********************************
So she was affectionate towards Kiara, but not Kyron? That’s really sad. It must be hard to be raised by someone who doesn’t show love towards you. I imagine Kyron spent a lot of time trying to do anything he could to earn TH’s love and praise.
————–
Skyline parents says:
November 2, 2010 at 2:08 pm
“Very early in the case, someone connected to LE told me (and that was the last thing I heard from him) that when the parents who were frequent volunteers were asked about her, they said “Who?” – and didn’t seem to know who she was. Hard to get references that way.” – Exactly. Again, I say that none of this makes her guilty, but the perception that she was some supermom that was at the school all the time and was trusted above the other volunteers is just WRONG. She was nothing more than a classroom volunteer at Skyline. Probably on the low end of the scale for time spent at the school, although that wouldn’t be unusual for someone who had a toddler at home.
As for Kaine – I would be suprised if more than 2 people from the community could have picked him out of a line-up before he wound up on the news. He just wasn’t involved at all.
And Steffi – great post, seriously.
I AM trying to be fair (although I’ll make absolutely no claims to objectivity). I certainly don’t know enough to convict Terri beyond a reasonable doubt, but when I see stuff I know is inaccurate, I have trouble not saying something.
————-
Whaazupwitchu says:
November 6, 2010 at 11:14 am
She is absolutely hiding something – her extreme avoidance to get on the stand and giving up visitation time is proof. Perhaps it is not about the disappearance of Kyron, but any way you shake it, she is very guilty of something. The sexts are already out, it has to be criminal stuff (and perhaps Kyron’s disappearance). And it must be pretty bad.
isn’t there someone else somewhere who can rat on her for this? Anonymously even? If anyone knows anything, just spitting it out anonymously would make them feel better.
A special on Dateline on 11-11 with a friend of TMH? I hope it isn’t Jaime Finster inserting herself again with the river of DE NILE.
@Jackie B and everyone – let’s just stick with that simple diagnosis of TMH – FUBAR!
@Skyline parent – is there any general ideas around Skyline community what TMH was doing criminal or who took Kyron?
skyline parent says:
November 7, 2010 at 12:30 am
@Skyline parent – is there any general ideas around Skyline community what TMH was doing criminal or who took Kyron?
I think the general idea is much less complicated here. No speculation re: other criminal activities.
Honestly, I think all this sexting is a red herring. I think the whole reason the texts have been made public is they just don’t matter. Sure they make Terri look like a cheap slut, but last I checked, being a cheap slut isn’t illegal.
As for Kaine setting her up – who cares, really? In a trial, he is irrelevant. He isn’t the victim or (most likely) the perpetrator. All JMO.
————-
@Mbs
(snipped) “Desiree Young, Kyron’s mother, said she believes Terri Horman took Kyron from
the school and then set a plan in motion to get rid of him. “I think that it was one of those things where everything worked out that day, but if something had derailed her, I think she would have given up what she was doing. But I think because everything fell in line, she continued with her plan, her checklist,” Young said.
—————————————————————–
Makes me wonder if there were previous attempts that failed and things worked out on June 4 2010.
With all the requests to keep an eye out for Kyron whereever you may go (and even now with age progression photos, etc), why in the H*** hasn’t LE or anyone else posted RS’s picture asking for anyone who has seen him to call LE??? Blink, I assume the picture you posted of RS, many stories back, is an accurate picture of RS? So if RS holds a key to Kyron’s disappearance, why hasn’t LE posted his photo asking the public to find RS???
http://blinkoncrime.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Sanchez_201.jpg
Rose says:
October 3, 2012 at 6:35 pm
@Panda. That’s not known. Neighbor, an imo credible blogger, said she’d been turned down by PPS, not Skyline.
But Neighbor also made clear she didn’t know the Hormans and wouldn’t have known or recognized Terri if she saw her at school.
Therefore, I’d put even the PPS comment (which omits what job, what school, was it wired, etc) solidly in the random very distant rumor column.
**********
Rose, where does neighbor say she did no know the Hormans? She has said she saw Kaine there at 3:00 p.m. on Thursday, June 3. Wouldn’t she have to know him in order to recognize him as being there?
@Panda,
So you are thinking Terri felt she had to get rid of Kyron because he knew something that he might tell and would cause her to be arrested for some nefarious behavior? Do you think that it was something that ONLY Kyron knew? IOW, James didn’t know? I’m curious as to what you might think a little 7 year old boy would know, that a 15 year old (I think, at the time) James would not figure out on his own. James was just deposed and Terri Horman is still not in jail, so I’m just wondering.
Just me, I guess, but if Terri had been engaging in some sort of illegal activities, at least one of those LE agencies would know that by now and her butt would be in jail. JMO
Does that mean LE believes RS? Or they have to keeping believing RS because by believing him, they esstentially broke up a family, which is still going through the family court. And they have to keep believing him because the parents of a school were told that this was an isolated incident.
sunshine_4me says:
October 4, 2012 at 11:33 am
…why in the H*** hasn’t LE or anyone else posted RS’s picture asking for anyone who has seen him to call LE???
Panda, Good post- thought provoking for certain.
T.Ruth, your post states:
I’ve never heard any fact about Terri being turned downed for any job at Skyline, nor PPS, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Neighbor who was posting here and on SM specifically states she/he was just speculating about a possible job. Who knows?
The remark by Neighbor:
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8661.235;wap2
Neighbor said: Jul 30, 2010 – 12:07:26
WonderingAlot says “Do you know if she volunteered any time at school this school year? If she didn’t, I’m wondering why?”
(Neighbor responds)
I have not seen her. Maybe she stopped doing it after PPS turned her down for a job. Just speculating.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The way I read that statement, Neighbor is saying that TH was no longer doing volunteer work at the school and the reason could be due to the fact that she was turned down for a job. That was the speculation- not that Neighbor was speculating about the job issue. That was stated as a fact.
sunshine_4me says:
October 4, 2012 at 11:33 am
————————————————————
But…is RS, from that photo, THE landscaper?
Is there the owner of the landscaping service, and then its workers?
With a statement by one of TH’s friends that she was “pointing” at the landscaper…which landscaper????
RS, according to Bunch in the custody hearing, was not accessible to him via LE and also “RS” was an alias?
If I am remembering all of that correctly, that screams to me that LE had spoken to “the landscaper,” knew who he was and where he was, and that he is accessible to them still.
The fact that this part of the saga has never been fleshed out by media or LE ever since drives me nuts.
@venetia
LOL, I know what you mean, but it’s still a vague statement, because she used the word maybe. Now, if she said “I know for a fact Terri Horman was turned down by PPS for a job. Maybe that’s why she was stopped volunteering, just speculating.”
But to me, what neighbor posted was vague. Not saying it isn’t true, just never saw it stated as fact by the family, LE or anyone else who actually knows Terri Horman. Would love to know whether it is true or not.
Oregon State Police (OSP) is asking for the public’s help to find a 20-year old Lincoln County resident wanted on multiple warrants that fled a traffic stop about ten days ago south of Depoe Bay. The man’s family has not heard from him since the date he was last seen by OSP and they are also concerned for his welfare.
KYLE L. WALLACE, age 20, from Depoe Bay, fled a traffic stop in the area of Highway 101 and Otter Crest Loop Road on September 24, 2012 at approximately 5:00 p.m. WALLACE was in the company of a female who was arrested by OSP. WALLACE fled in a vehicle that was found abandoned about a mile from the original stop location and an area search failed to find him.
(more @ link/with photo)
http://www.kptv.com/story/19737637/osp-seeks-help-finding-wanted-sex-offender
About TH applying for a job at PPS. Here are the reasons I can think of that she might have been turned down if she applied:
1 – She only wanted (applied for) one particular job. If she only wanted to work at Skyline, she would have had to interview with Keefer after being accepted by PPS HR. Principals sometimes have to take placements by the district if there are tenured teachers cut from somewhere else, but not a potential new hire. If Keefer turned her down, especially since it was rumored that she thought she could do a better job than Mrs. Porter, she may have been very upset with him. That would be confidential information unless she vented about it. In fact, any employment information would be confidential, so if anyone knew that she was turned down for a job, it would have to come from her, or someone else she told. She did not seem to have any reluctance to vent about personal “stuff”.
2 – She only wanted (applied for) one kind of job. Obviously, your options are greater if you apply for teacher, teacher assistant, substitute, secretarial staff, etc. Many people do that just to get the experience and connections to move into an opening when it comes up.
3 – She had poor references. These days a former employer is limited in what can be said, but there are still ways to appear less than enthusiastic about someone. She may also have asked for references from former colleagues who may or may not have followed through or done a good reference. (“Let’s see, on time for work, got the kids to line up and walk silently through the hall, threw out my personal classroom materials . . . “)
4 – She applied for something she was not qualified for or was much less qualified for than someone else and didn’t pursue any other positions. Between the No Child Left Behind Act and the economic losses to school budgets, teaching became more competitive based on experience, dual certifications, a second language skill, national tests for your area of expertise, etc. I commented once before on her license renewal – she used coursework to meet the requirement, however, it didn’t appear to me that she did anything likely to beef up her resume at that time. There are shortages in certain areas of teaching but you still have to be a strong candidate for the position.
If you are qualified and you hang in there with PPS long enough, you are pretty sure to get a job sooner or later. If money is your immediate need, signing up on several districts’ sub lists is pretty certain to get you a lot of assignments. It’s not easy but if she wanted to get a divorce, that and child support and maybe help from parents would get you through.
If problems were coming at her from multiple directions, I can see Keefer becoming a target of her anger if he turned her down, as well as anyone else she thought might have contributed to that – and of course, those same people could have been held “responsible” for her not being able to move out on her own and support herself. (Hey, if she could blame a little boy for her marriage problems, she could blame anybody for anything.) All that could have happened anytime, including well before June 4th. Or, of course, it could possibly not have happened at all.
Terri had so many “if’s, ands, and but’s” in her personal history, work history, and resume, it inspired me to post previously that in a competitive climate, she needed a good career counselor if she was really serious about working again. It doesn’t really surprise that she might not see that, however.
MockingbirdSings says:
October 4, 2012 at 1:43 am
snipped and commenting on own post:
“But I think because everything fell in line, she continued with her plan, her checklist,” Young said.”
———————-
So, if Terri did have a “checklist”, what – and who – would be on it?
Still thinking about this.
WPG
Blink is right about the recovery of data from a hard drive. There are programs out there that do not care what the content is of the data. They just get flux transitions of the magnetics on the drive. Once that is captured, other programs can determine what is data and what is control code. There is a lot of slack in writing data from an E-mail to a drive. Unless a program is used to write all ones to every recordable area of drive, data can be recovered.
Depending on how the school system is organized, there is the possibility that an off-site daily copy is kept so that the system can be restored in the event of a failure. LE could use that off-site copy to find the data.
@ MBS and Panda
It is nice to see some thoughts on Terri that
Are open and not judgemental
I agree with #4 MSB I think she over rates her
Skills and tends to be sure she can be perfect
I see that in her pics of holidays and also the children’s
Clothes No messy kids there
Panda I do believe she vented and whined
To people who were soaking up info for their own use
Most people make lists if they have lots to do
I do. I get tired of forgetting stuff
I looked on FB there are lots of RS
I do wish we had more info and pics
@MBS
It is in very bad taste to claim you can do a better job than someone else
Who has the job
And no one wants to hire trouble
No matter what
Agreed Malty.
B
MockingbirdSings says:
October 4, 2012 at 10:11 pm
1. Terri had so many “if’s, ands, and but’s” in her personal history, work history, and resume, it inspired me to post previously that in a competitive climate, she needed a good career counselor if she was really serious about working again. It doesn’t really surprise that she might not see that, however.
——————
Do you have a copy of a link to Terri’s resume. I have a linkedin account also (which i did not create and tried unsuccessfully to delete) and it was not anything like my resume. I would think Terri would have a resume separate from linkedin. Was Terri’s resume published somewhere like Facebook or in the media.
T. Ruth says:
October 4, 2012 at 7:33 pm
@venetia
LOL, I know what you mean, but it’s still a vague statement, because she used the word maybe. Now, if she said “I know for a fact Terri Horman was turned down by PPS for a job. Maybe that’s why she was stopped volunteering, just speculating.”
But to me, what neighbor posted was vague. Not saying it isn’t true, just never saw it stated as fact by the family, LE or anyone else who actually knows Terri Horman. Would love to know whether it is true or not.
——————-
Since Neighbor was not a personal friend of TH How would she know that TH was turned down for a job at the school. Do you think that the PPS HR department informed neighbor of TH applying for and being turned down for a job at Skyline school.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-oregon-boys-uncle-arrested-unrelated-charge/t/story?id=10955255
Remember this?
Family statement read at press conference saying Kyron would be missing Father’s Day 2010, three days BEFORE Father’s Day.
The certainty in their statement still bothers me. How did they know he would not be found before that date? There was a reason they said that…. What is the reason?
Jmo
@MbS . What source is there TMH applied for a PPS job? Not even Kaine stated that
. And imo he would have.
I replied last nite late, but cell died 30 sec before send;so did the post. This one won’t be as concise. Sorry I was in class yesterday, and I wanted to look for Neighbor’s posts. I had been googling around for “Neighbor” when I stumbled on Beejay’s reminescences.
At the time, and on review, it was my impression her comment TMH was an odd duck was made several months after the abduction and was based on observations since the abduction, mostly from the press conf & from media accounts. It’s consistant with the opinion most of us formed.
Hopefully she’s was in touch with Blink privately in 2010 as well.
My sense after skimming numerous Blink threads for her green blanket (and therefore no doubt missing a few) that she posted more frequently on other sites, like Hinky or Scared. Below I summarize her Blink posts I found, except I coukd not find the thread(s?) between July 27 ’10 & DAD. As she was lkkely primarily posting then til midfall, anyone with that url? I copy her posts below.
After reviewing her posts, I feel they are of varying types & reliability:
1) firsthand observation, highly credible. ie about school landscaping
or I saw Kaine around 3 on 6/3. route driving times
2) firsthand observation leading to a conclusion which doesn’t follow, is fwiw.
ie, I didn’t see Terri around school volunteering when I was there.. therefore
she wasnt an active volunteer during school day is implied, but doesn’t follow.
3) repeats media as fact, not credible. ie Terri was seen on 6th at 3
4) repeats school rumors. useful but is fwiw
5) profers opinion based on media and cumulative info. again fwiw. ex stating dr’s
apptmt must be 6/4, erred on date school was out.
After re-reading everything I feel she tends to generally paint Terri, subtly, in a negative light
most of the time. So maybe she did know the family.
Recap of BOC. Her posts seem to have begun on Cook thread:
Bringing forward Neighbor posts from Cook thread:
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/07/12/kyron-horman-missing-and-endangered-kaine-horman-accuses-terri-of-contempt-with-michael-cook/comment-page-1/#comments
” neighbor says:
July 13, 2010 at 4:22 pm
@mrsomeone says:
“If you view a map of the area, the first road north of Logie Tr. is NW Morgan Rd. Right there is Rainbow Lake. Has this area been searched? It also looks like NW Skyline Rd. intersects with NW Logie Tr. for easy access up that way.
TH was seen driving her truck NW 6th Ave at 3pm on the day Kyron disappeared and at 2am the night after. From her home that is the first street South, between Cornelius Pass and the railroad. Always wondered what she would be doing there ..”
” neighbor says:
July 13, 2010 at 10:24 pm
SadieBlue said: “My thoughts, if the Landscaper is the key. Terri was often at the school, and there was a landscaping project recently at the school, so this LS could have been involved and she could have met him there, and he could be familiar with Kyron from working there. ”
The landscaping at the school was done by a parent volunteer who spent countless hours there. She was interviewed twice for local tv. I have been at the school every day, and don’t remember seeing TH. Not sure how involved she was.”
“neighbor says:
July 13, 2010 at 11:42 pm
MidWest mom says:
“Do you know where to find this interview?”
The interview was probably at KGW.
I only mentioned her to show that it was not some external (commercial) company. She is the most lovely and caring person. Oregon schools are short on cash. Landscaping is probably one the last things they can afford.”
Then a diff thread: from http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/07/16/kyron-horman-missing-and-endangered-terri-horman-leaves-the-house/
“neighbor says:
July 17, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Whaazupwitchu says:
“On one Terri Horman’s FB support site, it mentioned that her trips to Albertson’s and Fred Meyer’s the morning of June 4 had been verified via video, which would preclude the early arrival somewhere else, plus it was in exactly the opposite direction of SI, is this true?”
Skyline K8 to Albertsons = 10 minutes
Albertsons to Fred Meyer = 7 minutes
Fred Meyer to Sauvie Island = 25 minutes (depends where you go)
There are not many lights or stop signs here and the whole trip can be done in 45 minutes (excluding shopping). That still plenty of time for other business.”
“neighbor says:
July 25, 2010 at 10:26 am
Nancy writes “I keep thinking about how at the very beginning of the investigation a neighbor saw a woman in a truck at around 3:00 p.m. on the day of the disappearance and again at 2:00 a.m. on Saturday morning – who just sat there then drove away. Doesn’t that neighbor live very close to Skyline? Could it have possibly been De De in that truck, since TH was probably at home with LE? Do you suppose LE has retrieved more information after talking to TH’s friends?”
I remember it was on NW 6th. That is close to the train tracks. Most likely that was DeDe, although she was identified as TMH.”
“neighbor says:
July 26, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Sorry for cross posting, but I need to get this out .. given that June 8 was the last day of school, the Dr. appointment can only refer to that sad Friday June 4th.”
“neighbor says:
July 26, 2010 at 4:03 pm
FLGirl says “I think the dr. appt was a lie; but I thought school didn’t get out until the 15th?”
Thanks for the correction. I seemed to have erased that weird school week from my memory.”
no Neighbor posts seen skimming on on “Heavy Hitter Hired” thread, or “RO & Divirce” nor “Path to D is Forged” nor Watch Press Conf Live ” nor “Day 9″ nor “Kaine Points A Finger” nor “Landscaper Knew Kyron” July 27, ’10-DAD Jan ’11 is a gap. url anyone?
my paragraph 2 should have begun with @Venetia.
I have to question Neighbor’s motive in repeating rumor or initiating rumor she was turned down for a PPS job. But, if so, it comes down to the hiring MO of the principal in classroom receuitment.
One of our County principals was famous for turning around schools and having the highest testing
school in the state. As he aggressively drove out nonperformers, he hired only seasoned teachers with a proven track record. He was high on control of his staff & school. The principal who followed him hired only new first year teachers. He once said you go to central office to look thru the appls & there are pictures. He relied on the pictures too in deciding who to interview. Most of his hires were new teachers & proved very weak, in fact he had to let one go 3 years later. He was a principal with “loose” control but very genial and his teachers loved him. Mr Keefer fits MO No 2. Keefer hired new first year teachers for classrooms, even the Resource position which is unusual; decentralized control of staff & school & parents; genial. staff/parents love decentralized control in public and see such a principal as very collegial.
Neither type of principal would have hired Terri imo. For No , to whom student skills success as measured by tests was all (this is at el ed level MbS), Terri was far too inexperienced. For No 2, there were lots more attractive (in personality, not just looks but that too, with far less messy lives) new first year teachers out there. At least 2 of his 3 new teacher hires were childless. These people hire teachers just starting out on a life’s career.
Rose,
I think that Neighbor’s statement that she knew the Hormans
cb due to the fact that they were neighbors and/or same
profession – the key being Intel. Google the names using
Intel as key word. My point- info re: the failed job
attempt cb via KH ? Could also be the the source of the
“odd duck” opinion ?
Agree that Keefer sounds more like MO #2.
@ NelMel says: October 4, 2012 at 6:38 pm
@ sunshine_4me says: October 4, 2012 at 11:33 am
Interesting point NelMel. Are you saying that possibly RS is the “owner” of the landscaping company, but not “the landscaper” who actually worked for Terri? Maybe LS (shown in picture) is the owner? Maybe the owner of the company is legal, but some of his workers – possibly Terri’s landscaper – are not.. hmmm.
We here at Blink, have been using the name “RS” in reference to Terri’s landscaper, however, that is an alias, correct? So Bunch says that the “landscaper” was not made available to him by LE, but that he continues to be available to LE. Also media didn’t use his name in their article either (if I can find link, I will post later). Is he in jail? In protected custody? Is he being held by ICE? Is he in Mexico? This is an interesting thought to ponder.
———–
RS, according to Bunch in the custody hearing, was not accessible to him via LE and also “RS” was an alias?
If I am remembering all of that correctly, that screams to me that LE had spoken to “the landscaper,” knew who he was and where he was, and that he is accessible to them still.