Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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Such a good point.
Rose says:
November 19, 2012 at 5:00 pm
re: Medford weekend WAS A GO
snipped from article dated July 6, 2010 (info from reporter who was at the July 6 press conference held by DY and TY in Medford)
“Desiree and Tony said that on the day Kyron disappeared Terri was supposed to take Kyron and drive him to Eugene to meet Desiree. Desiree was then going to take Kyron to Medford for the weekend so he could go fishing with Tony.”
article and video (includes reporter stating the same)
http://www.katu.com/news/local/97904344.html?tab=video&c=y
video of DY and TY speaking about the Medford weekend at 6:30 time mark
(note – - video takes a while to load)
“Raw: Mom & step-dad talk about Kyron”
posted July 7 2010
http://www.kgw.com/video/featured-videos/Raw-Desiree-Young-talks-about-Kyron-97951209.html
I appreciate this site b/c there are so many different pov’s that encourage seeing something in another way. For inastance, I always assumed ice cream was either on the way, or at the halfway point. My stepsitster and I were in a similar situation growing up, and our parents would often times meet at the Fosters Freeze (which was right at about the halfway point between our parents’ houses) and have lunch or ice cream.
Or Kyron being nervous or anxious that morning – I remember our Mission project in Elem. school where we had to build a “replica” of a California Mission. I was very proud of that thing, and I was definitely anxious the morning that we were all displaying our Missions. I was excited and anxious also – I was a 9 yr. old.
Or the e-mail from Kaine asking ppl not to speak to the media / mentioning the Legal dept. at Intel. The FBI was involved at that point, Kyron’s story was already in the media, therefore, Intel was likely going to be mentioned in the msm in articles about a missing boy, the son of an employee, and that federal agencies are involved. This would likely lead to journalists / msm folks doing what comes with their job – find sources, dig up dirt, verify information, be the first to know/report, etc. The problem? Well, we’re seeing it now, stories in the news – what’s real and what is misinformation? We don’t know 1/2 the time and it is frustrating. Now imagine the giant swell of “is that true??” articles / msm info if a bunch of Intel employees gave statements/interviews. So, it does not surprise me in the least that Kaine was trying to contact the legal dept. at Intel or asking people not to speak to the media.
Sorry this was long, just sharing another pov, while absorbing and contemplating so many of yours.
sorry, sleepy here . . .
To add, the “Medford weekend” Q and A goes on until the 9:28 time mark, so for about 3 minutes.
“Raw: Mom & step-dad talk about Kyron”
posted July 7 2010
http://www.kgw.com/video/featured-videos/Raw-Desiree-Young-talks-about-Kyron-97951209.html
nite.
Blink,
Several posts are still in moderation . . . no worries, I will repeat so you don’t have to hunt for them:
re Medford Weekend
Video of DY and TY speaking about the Medford weekend at 6:30 time mark
(note – – video takes a while to load)
“Raw: Mom & step-dad talk about Kyron”
posted July 7 2010
http://www.kgw.com/video/featured-videos/Raw-Desiree-Young-talks-about-Kyron-97951209.html
To add, the “Medford weekend” Q and A goes on until the 9:28 time mark, so for about 3 minutes.
Hi all, I have a couple of posts from yesterday, still not showing up. ?
You are all up T.Ruth- appolly.
B
Blink or anyone, how long can a Grand Jury Indictment be kept before charges need to be filed? or is it indefinite? tyia
I guess I am waiting on Part 2
When people are just doing their own thing
And have no way of knowing that today is the
Day that Kyron will disappear for over 2 years
It is hard to even think of reasons why they did any thing
I have to go with the SZ
The unexpected bad guy
That is a bad guy and a school with laxed security
Pretty much what I feel happened to this child
VLH says:
November 20, 2012 at 3:33 am
Thanks. I know what you mean about pov’s.
I agree about it not being surprising that employees were asked not to talk to the media. I always assumed Kaine ran his email by his immediate supervisor first or went by company policy. If the legal department or the company boss were to directly tell employees not to talk to the media, there would be assumptions made about that just as there was speculation about Kaine doing it.
My PPS high school had multiple incidents over the years. The staff was reminded each time that we were at risk of being quoted out of context, that we had a history of unbalanced reporting about the school, and that reporters would ask leading questions (all true). We were strongly urged to simply refer every reporter to the district spokesperson. However, supported by the unions, we were also told they could not tell us NEVER to talk to a reporter, or write a letter to the editor, but they could tell us we (and the students) could not be interviewed on school property – across the street was allowable.
Given the level of misinformation evident amongst ourselves, I have to say I think it was the right decision not to share that. There were some strong responses on behalf of the school, but not in the “man on the street” style of interviewing. I look at the Intel situation in a similar way, given the information that we have.
Will be later this afternoon.
B
What if…Ms. P was one of those who saw SZ that morning?
@ Blink says:
November 18, 2012 at 10:52 am
“So perhaps they were hopeful not naming the school would allow witnesses to speak freely in a deposition?”
*****************
Actually, I think and I hope this is exactly what happened. I hope Rosenthal was just being shrewd in leaving the school out of the mix. That, IMO would be pretty darn smart. It’s obvious to me (lay person that I am) that the judge will not compel DDS, because it’s obvious she was indeed considered a *defacto accomplice* by LE in the alleged crime. (BTW, what crime? Alleged kidnapping? To the best of my knowledge there is still no evidence that any crime was committed in regard to Kyron’s disppearance. Negligence? another story. MFH, IDK?)
If Judge Kantor can excuse Terri’s testimony for being a defacto suspect in an ongoing investigation, which he has, so too can he do the same with Dede. However, I do not see him being able to use the same reasoning to excuse the employees of the school, or anyone else for that matter, from being deposed civilly because none of them have ever been considered suspect. Not to our knowledge anyway. Bring on the depositions.
06-15-10
snip>
The team has been advised they are looking for a large container, possibly a suitcase or duffle bag, within the shore line.
Sam says:
June 15, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Where is the info. on a container coming from?
And I didn’t understand the cell phone pings…where is that coming from also??
Source. To clarify, it is possible container, suitcase or duffel carrier of some type.
B
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/06/15/kyron-horman-missing-and-endangered-john-walsh-on-today-show-media-will-solve-this-case/comment-page-1/#comments
I went back to the early days of the investigation before influence of the family issues. Blink, if you can tell us, does your source still stand behind this information? I ask because:
1) If TH did this, then I would assume a container/suitcase was missing from the Horman house. She did not use it as a means of removal, but only subsequently.
2) If someone from the school, or affiliated, did this, then it could explain a child being seen one moment and vanishing the next.
3) If exhibits, other than the children’s exhibits, were being transported in and out of the building by adults, then was there some suspicion surrounding one of the owners of the exhibits, such as the electric one, and did it arrive in containers or suitcases?
I believe the directive was more related to the fact that it is possible that Ky was concealed.
I have NO verified source on the following: I was under the impression that meant that although Ky leaves the building with SZ , perhaps SZ returns or was seen after that in the building.
The amount of time they spent on grounds searching the pond and surrounding woods made me think that as well, but again supposition based on the fact this had to be a highly organized offender.
B
The newslink for this goes no where anymore, so I am posting a comment. Reading further on, the truck was not actually towed, but put up on a trailer, so the tires were not hitting the road, which appeared to readers as suspicious. On face value, if there was a mechanical problem and the Horman’s wanted to make sure MCSO did not object to them having the truck removed? Maybe LE and KH sold this story to TH. Perhaps since it was his truck MCSO did not require her legal consent without a warrant?
TR says:
June 16, 2010 at 11:43 am
Lily–
Thanks for supplying that link. That video clip was very informative.
I am having trouble understanding why the family would ask the Sheriff’s Department to tow their vehicle to a dealership as opposed to a regular towing company. So strange. And the search of the property across the street is odd too….at least in terms of timing.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2010/06/15/kyron-horman-missing-and-endangered-john-walsh-on-today-show-media-will-solve-this-case/comment-page-2/#comments
Or they downloaded some sort of diagnostic data ?
B
I know the SI are supposedly based on cell pings, but I often wondered if the truck towing and searches found something in the tire treads that maybe only grows on SI, or near bodies of water. Like maybe pickleweed. (which is delicious btw) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicornia
They did a lot of searching on the edges of bodies of water, which is where pickleweed grows (probably other marsh specific plants as well). Just a thought I had.
Sorry to nag, but I still have posts awaiting moderation back from the 19th. Is it just me?
Nope, glitch and me, lol. Will be caught up momentito.
B
Blink wrote: …Maybe, but then we know that there are witnesses that are school employees that saw suspect zero.
~~~
I admit I am a bit behind the curve, but the above revelation is new to me … long suspected, but I have not … until now … read that “school employees” saw suspect zero … if this is true, then there must be a description of SZ … my obvious question is “why not release the description?”
Those who went missing:
Kyron
DAD
RS (?)
RS’ wife/childen?
SZ
Wonder if SZ could be combined with one or more of these, or connected?
Blink replies to bumble
November 19, 2012 at 7:56 am
(snip)
“I have yet to find a source that directly quotes both or either as to the stated plans for kyrons visitation travels that weekend.”
Blink,
I have supplied video source of Desiree and Tony speaking of/confirming the Medford weekend was indeed scheduled. DY says she was driving to meet TH half way on Friday June 4. Kyron was to go fishing with TY on TY’s boat Saturday June 5.
My comments with the link are still in moderation.
Do you need me to repost?
no thanks, I appreciate the follow up I am way behind, combo Holiday and casework developments- my appollies.
B
It seems like the truck was having a starter problem
So it was tolled
Maybe some one saved that early news
I wondered at the time if someone messed with the starter
Rose says:
November 19, 2012 at 1:53 pm
No, Rose, there is no interview of Porter, ever that I know of. I was merely speculating when I said, “the only thing I can figure”.
FWIW, IMO, because I don’t know anything otherwise, perhaps one of you do, or I missed somethin’ along the way, it is entirely possible Desiree cancelled the weekend and has made no mention of it. She was busy it work, it was not only payroll (Friday?) it was month-end. Not blaming anyone here. It is entirely possible that neither Kaine, nor Tony knew about the cancellation until later on.
That’s all I’m saying, because I do not know it to be true one way or the other. I was simply looking for a trigger that might have set Terri off, if in fact she was even ignite-able.
Happy Thanksgiving all of you! Let’s all be thankful for what we’ve got and pray for those who are missing.
Cindy, I’d wonder the same but Mrs P had just gotten tenure two months before, so she was safe no matter how Terri or Kaine complained about her. Since Kyron started school younger than peers iirc, I wonder if at end of year Porter gad recommended to Hormans repeating a year hoping his attentional system and classroom behaviors would mature. Iirc he was just on grade level in academic work. It could be this young teacher thought it would give him a boost to repeat and had discussed it with Hormans and that was one impetus to talk to pediatrician at year’s end.
@wpg. re
November 19, 2012 at 9:55 am
jmo . . . One of the biggest calling cards that Kyron did not return to class was his 3 feet tall science project standing on his desk”
could Mrs P have given them a prelunch playground bonus while she straightened up? and that’s why his not “returning from bathroom” went unnoticed?
Medical records will be permitted in Desiree’s suit agains TMH:
http://www.kptv.com/story/20161872/mental-health-records-allowed-in-lawsuit-against-terri-horman
Sorry if someone has already posted this.
Malty says:
November 21, 2012 at 10:19 pm
It seems like the truck was having a starter problem
So it was tolled
Maybe some one saved that early news
I wondered at the time if someone messed with the starter
***
Wondering too. Odd timing? (not tongue in cheek, btw).
Gates emphasized it was towed for “mechanical” reasons?
As if MCSO, inadvertently, lent a hand?
Get the truck up and running for another day?
And they didn’t confiscate it for “evidence”?
BTW…was Skyline ever declared a “crime scene”?
N E V E R
B
Just a thought. There are so many here that have much more experience than moi about crime investigations in general.
Is there a “degree” (for lack of a better word) of guilt that LE imprints upon a newly diagnosed “suspect” in cases such as these?
For example, the “family” is the first group that must be ruled out, from what i’ve learned. What are the variables by which a family member becomes the one who is NOT “ruled out”?
What, in other words, is the matrix within which we decide, as a public, to affix the stigma of “perp” to a family member?
If there is such.
I’ve never followed a crime case this closely before…so forgive me if naive.
Excellent Question vw.
In a missing child case (they all differ, so I am speaking of Kyron) an immediate parallel investigation begins. I say parallel because the family (9 out of 10 times when there is no witness it is a family related crime until the actual crime is known, ie: actual abduction v death) must be ruled out at the same time efforts are being made to investigate the possibility of aquaintance or stranger abduction and the motivation for same.
This is accomplished via exclusion. In other words, everyone is in until they are out through some series of investigative means. ( could be poly, alibis, logistics, interview, etc.)
Exclusion is critical to investigations progressing and turning resources especially in the instance of a child. The quicker LE can clear the family, the quicker they can engage assets to expand the investigation.
That said, in this case, as opposed to many others, there was no clear motive, and witnesses took days/weeks to present the story of suspect zero. No evidence outside the known – just that he was 7 and could not really disappear himself. To date, the FBI missing posters do not call Kyron’s case an abduction.
TH was TOLD she was a defacto suspect, or a definite suspect depending on who you believe, and frankly so were many witnesses and parents. Once you put that out there, especially when you have a known SZ, you can forget about any sort of objective lead generation.
Imo, lack of experience in this sort of case on behalf of the investigators has forever compromised this outcome.
B
@wpg.
You got me thinking about the ESIS thingy, again! At the HS it was rather cut and dried regarding the absence. If we marked absent for 2nd period, for example, that kid was not in class from 820-940. At the elementary level, however, if one markes absent….there might be really no time assigned at all.
That is precisely why I don’t think that Ms. Porter marked Kyron absent at 10am. Since that was the time that ANY STUDENT must be marked absent by, the marking would be available.
If you look at the wording of the various attempts to inform the public of what they wanted to know, you will see that within the first reports no one KNEW the time….
You’ll see “no one knows” “sometime that morning” and “after the student reconvened” etc…..
Which makes me think that Ms.Porter NEVER marked Kyron absent. Or else Shelby would have known Friday afternoon when he was called in from the District Office to Skyline.
Later…a time was of critical importance. To NOT mark a student absent and then he disappears??? What does that say about the school?
Does that make sense?
You all are on my list of what I am thankful for. Blessings!
Thank you kindly – as am I, erose and all of you.
Many Blessings!
B
Happy Thanksgiving all. Have a great day!
(With time on my hands due to cooking/freezing all ahead…..)
re:”TH was TOLD she was a defacto suspect, or a definite suspect depending on who you believe, and frankly so were many witnesses and parents”
Then Blink, if witnesses were told during initial interviews the first weekend Terri was suspected, I think the Detective in charge was following the Porter story line: ” I believed heleft with his mother.” Teachers are given great deference by detectives imo. And, He’d just come off a Child Abuse detective detail, and in those Court cases, teachers are interviewed, deemed reliable, and especially in cases of neglect their comments often go in Court reports. And the Moms are usually in the “bad guy” camp, as was the Detective’s first wife in his eyes. I think the case skewed from Porter: “I didn’t mark him absent because she was here, & I thought she just took him out for a little while. She acts like she’s in charge here and does what she wants.” imo as to Porter’s feedback to Detective(s). . Who is Porter’s husband? How is she “connected” in PPS or Portland society?
@vw. I agree with your reasoning he was never marked absent. Moreover that’s a positive step, an affirmative action
must be taken to make someone absent. And Porter’s MO does not seem to be “take action,” right down to making a mark.
Whether he was in the bathroom or at his own or Kiara’s doctor, imo Porter’s take was I thought he just left with Terri.
Maybe vw, you didn’t see my question moderated among the later ones of truth & wpg,
after 10 am, can esis be changed–a mark added or removed? If so, Can only the teacher change or also any principal or Admin with her password? If alteration is possiblr by Porter or others, a mark or its absence before or after 10 am has no evidentiary value, imo.
I believe Mrs Porter was fully believed by Detective & PPS & parents & staff in blaming the departure on Terri because she had no job consequences of any kind, even transfer to another school.
We’ve been exploring
Part 2 material for several days.
Anticipatory.
@ puzzled says:
November 21, 2012 at 12:26 pm
“Blink wrote: …Maybe, but then we know that there are witnesses that are school employees that saw suspect zero.
~~~
I admit I am a bit behind the curve, but the above revelation is new to me … long suspected, but I have not … until now … read that “school employees” saw suspect zero … if this is true, then there must be a description of SZ … my obvious question is “why not release the description?”
—————————————————————–
From what I’ve gathered on this site the description was “generic” i.e. white male 20+. Please correct if I’m wrong.
Thanks for that link, bumble. This is interesting:
The protective order filed in Multnomah County Circuit Court said any medical records, including but not limited to mental health records, can be used by the prosecution or the defense.
The protective order mandates any such records be sealed in an envelope at the conclusion of the litigation if they are retained in either attorney’s files.
*They then cannot be reopened except in connection with a subsequent legal malpractice action or other legal proceeding directly related to the current case.*
http://www.kptv.com/story/20161872/mental-health-records-allowed-in-lawsuit-against-terri-horman
My question now is, would the Horman divorce be considered “a legal proceeding directly related the current case” since the RO is part of the divorce and the RO is based partly on Kyron’s disappearance?
Happy Thanksgiving
Blink and all
This site is wonderful as it reminds me
That little Kyron needs to be found every day
And of his family waiting
And to pray for them
And I was thinking last night about his class pic
Why couldn’t they have waited until he
Came back from the bathroom to take the pic
I find so many things about that school
I just don’t like
Happy Thanksgiving to Blink and all my BOC friends!
Porter’s deposition will be of particular interest to all of us here, I’m sure. So many “pieces of the puzzle” might fall into place. In my mind, Porter’s assumptions,, statements and lack of appropriate actions, are directly related to how/why this case has gone the way it has. However, i am basing my position on assumption and hearsay and lack of inside information.
http://www.kptv.com/story/20161872/mental-health-records-allowed-in-lawsuit-vs-terri-horman
My questions –
Is it actually possible to use medical or mental health records in a lawsuit and still keep them confidential? I understand the rules for the conclusion of the suit, but if there is anything of note in the records, how do you use them and not speak about them in court and also trust no one is going to repeat anything they heard. I also understand about judge’s chambers, orders to the jury, closed courtroom, but still it seems if anything in the records had an impact on the case, it would be impossible to keep it totally secret.
“The protective order filed in Multnomah County Circuit Court said any medical records, including but not limited to mental health records, can be used by the prosecution or the defense.”
“The protective order mandates any such records be sealed in an envelope at the conclusion of the litigation if they are retained in either attorney’s files.”
“They then cannot be reopened except in connection with a subsequent legal malpractice action or other legal proceeding directly related to the current case.”
Or are they only speaking about after this case so that this action is designed to force the DA to go after them separately for a criminal case?
Would Desiree be allowed to know what’s in the medical and mental health records?
IF Houze has had any sort of mental health exam done for Terri (or for the divorce), would he have to turn that over for use in the civil case now? (Or perhaps, the results would support the defense and he would want them used?)
Rose says:
November 22, 2012 at 10:29 am
@vw. I agree with your reasoning he was never marked absent. Moreover that’s a positive step, an affirmative action must be taken to make someone absent. And Porter’s MO does not seem to be “take action,” right down to making a mark.
Whether he was in the bathroom or at his own or Kiara’s doctor, imo Porter’s take was I thought he just left with Terri.
Maybe vw, you didn’t see my question moderated among the later ones of truth & wpg,
after 10 am, can esis be changed–a mark added or removed? If so, Can only the teacher change or also any principal or Admin with her password? If alteration is possiblr by Porter or others, a mark or its absence before or after 10 am has no evidentiary value, imo.
I believe Mrs Porter was fully believed by Detective & PPS & parents & staff in blaming the departure on Terri because she had no job consequences of any kind, even transfer to another school.
——————————————–
eSIS can be changed – parents have 3 days after the absence to inform the school that an absence was excused. There is an “administrator” for the attendance records (a secretary) who is authorized to make changes after the teacher is done, print reports for individuals or for groups such as who is approaching the “10 days in a row” rule for withdrawing a student from school, making changes if someone is marked absent and actually comes in to the office within the time to be marked tardy, etc.
Responsibilities and instructions for eSIS are spelled out in the district attendance handbook. You can see the 2012-2013 version at http://www.pps.k12.or.us/departments/information-technology/4041.htm
After reviewing the handbook and remembering my own training, some things are still not clear. In 2010, in a school where the auto-dialer was not used, were the deadlines everyone else in the district had for inputting data still enforced?
And on 11-19, I posted another question:
My question –
I do know you can go back and change attendance data, for example unexcused absence to excused – parents were allowed 3 days to provide an excuse. What I’d like to know is whether those changes can be seen or found (tracked) on the computer afterward.
So, for example in this case, if Mrs. Porter allowed Kyron to be counted present at 10 even though she didn’t see him, and then changed that to absent later, would anyone be able to tell that change was made and when it was done? Or whether she or a secretary made the change?
——————————–
If you read the attendance handbook, look for the instructions (several) that mention “impersonating the teacher” or “not impersonating the teacher”. I know they don’t mean it that way, but it does make you think about the possibilities.
It appears there SHOULD be a separate log-in for each teacher responsible for students and a secretary-attendance administrator. Subs (except long-term ones) complete a report for the office and the appropriate person would do it there. My experience with secretaries is that there is usually a back-up person (another secretary, or an administrator) who knows how to handle duties which are time sensitive, in case that secretary is gone. If you really wanted to interfere, all you would have to do is read the handbook and know the teacher or attendance administrator’s log-in information – I’m not sure why anyone would want to though.
There is also a way to track which teachers are not doing their attendance as they should – I suspect that is meant for schools that have regular period changes – but it does also mean that it’s likely someone could use eSIS to see what a particular teacher did regarding attendance.
Personally, I think she was just dense.
Hope you have all had a nice Thanksgiving.
@January says:November 22, 2012 at 2:22 pm
Porter’s deposition will be of particular interest to all of us here, I’m sure. So many “pieces of the puzzle” might fall into place. In my mind, Porter’s assumptions,, statements and lack of appropriate actions, are directly related to how/why this case has gone the way it has. However, i am basing my position on assumption and hearsay and lack of inside information.
@mbs. Imo The records themselves stay confidential.
There will however be testimony about them. and that will
be in OLive & Kyle’s station. Testimony I suppose from hired
gun “experts” wrt to the diagnoses
and what such a person with such a diagnosis
could do. The goal at that point imo will be convict Terri….pound of flesh.
This is one affair with a married man Terri will rue.
Though a different cause of action, I found this from WA a nice guide.
http://www.wcsap.org/sites/www.wcsap.org/files/uploads/documents/AGuidetoCivilLawSuits.pdf
It reminds us exhaustive information & medical records may come in on Desiree, and on Kyron.!
This ruling has my head spinning. Who motioned for it? When was it heard?
Etc, etc. That burden is uge-mongous.
B
@MockingbirdSings says:
November 22, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Thanks for the information. Would all be interesting to see, the log in & attendance records, unfortunately, that’s exactly what LE says was missing form the school, when they finally got around to asking for it. I wonder exactly, when, it dawned on them to ask for it and why. I think the fact they didn’t ask for it earlier on, puts a whole lot of credence into Rose’s post above:
(snipped)
Rose says:
November 22, 2012 at 10:29 am
Then Blink, if witnesses were told during initial interviews the first weekend Terri was suspected, I think the Detective in charge was following the Porter story line: ” I believed heleft with his mother.” Teachers are given great deference by detectives imo. And, He’d just come off a Child Abuse detective detail, and in those Court cases, teachers are interviewed, deemed reliable, and especially in cases of neglect their comments often go in Court reports. And the Moms are usually in the “bad guy” camp, as was the Detective’s first wife in his eyes. I think the case skewed from Porter: “I didn’t mark him absent because she was here, & I thought she just took him out for a little while. She acts like she’s in charge here and does what she wants.” imo as to Porter’s feedback to Detective(s). . Who is Porter’s husband? How is she “connected” in PPS or Portland society?
*****************
BTW, Rose, I’ve never seen anything about Porter being a married woman. I always assumed she was single. Anyone know differently?
Would Desiree be allowed to know what’s in the medical and mental health records?
IF Houze has had any sort of mental health exam done for Terri (or for the divorce), would he have to turn that over for use in the civil case now? (Or perhaps, the results would support the defense and he would want them used?)
—–
I don’t know much about civil suits involving medical records but I would think that Rosenthal/Desiree would only be able to have/use Terri’s medical records if the Houze/Wagner used them in their defense of or Terri used them in a counter suit against Desiree.
Maybe. if Rosenthal could prove that said records were not private and were germane to the case against Terri.
Records were not private ( by this I mean that Terri was known to discuss her medical issues with friends or on Facebook and therefore they were public knowledge anyway).
I am sure that their are HIPPA regulations surrounding sharing of medical records also.
@Blink do you know anything about the rules regarding use of the defendants medical records by the prosecution in a civil proceeding? Would this make Desiree’s medical records fair game also?
I really do not feel comfortable addressing any questions until I read the actual order.
It is a big deal.
B
@Red Rose 11/22/12 at 9:41 p.m.
@January 11/22/12 2:22 p.m.
I’m in agreement that Ms. Porter is key to this puzzle. Did she already appear before the Grand Jury?
@T.Ruth -
My question now is, would the Horman divorce be considered “a legal proceeding directly related the current case” since the RO is part of the divorce and the RO is based partly on Kyron’s disappearance?
———————-
A very good question. When I first read it, I assumed it meant if there is an appeal filed concerning the results of this same suit, or if a claim of malpractice was filed against one of the attorneys in this case, or something relating to this judge or a jury – and nothing else.
The more I think about it, the more I think it is another attempt to protect Terri’s rights by putting a barrier between the civil case and the criminal case (which, of course, doesn’t exist). By keeping the records confidential, the DA would have to charge her and then subpoena medical records himself – he would anyway in order to use them in court, but it would certainly give him a head start if he knew what was in the records.. If the DA is a long way from wanting to file charges, that could be a substantial barrier.
I think it also prevents Kaine and his divorce attorney from using the records which are brought to the civil case, but it seems to me they have a good chance of getting them on their own if Terri asks for anything relating to Kiara – they have already made known they intend to request those records. Therefore, keeping those records confidential in the civil case doesn’t seem to affect the divorce case, IMO.
I wonder how the judge in the divorce case would deal with medical/mental health records regarding confidentiality (if petitioned). If this is a big issue for Terri, I think she won’t ask for custody or visitation – there’s no other reason to request those records in the divorce case unless you can possibly connect them to the MFH allegation, but IMO, there would have to be a lot more presented re the MFH to have any influence on the divorce settlement or a request for Terri’s records on that basis alone. However, although we have laws and procedures to follow in all these court cases, there seems to be plenty of room for twists and turns anyway.
I am also wondering if the medical/mental health records subpoena will include her alcohol treatment program after the DUI.
RedRose says:
November 22, 2012 at 9:41 pm
Personally, I think she was just dense.
Hope you have all had a nice Thanksgiving.
@January says:November 22, 2012 at 2:22 pm
Porter’s deposition will be of particular interest to all of us here, I’m sure. So many “pieces of the puzzle” might fall into place. In my mind, Porter’s assumptions,, statements and lack of appropriate actions, are directly related to how/why this case has gone the way it has. However, i am basing my position on assumption and hearsay and lack of inside information.
—————————————–
It occurred to me (since my mind wanders elsewhere during football on TV) that we have laws holding bartenders and hosts responsible if they continue serving alcohol to anyone who has reached or surpassed reasonable limits. We have laws about remaining at the scene of an accident and maintaining your vehicle so that it does not endanger others (lights, brakes, wipers, etc.)
There are just certain things adults are expected to do because they have that control or authority and the level of risk is high. These are not criminal actions, but a failure to act responsibly in situations where it is obvious what is the right action to take.
Certainly anyone who fails to keep track of a child moving in and out of their care should be held responsible as well. It doesn’t matter to me what she THOUGHT about where Kyron was, it matters that she didn’t actually KNOW . . . and then didn’t make the effort to confirm. That’s not “dense”, that’s derelict (lacking a sense of duty).
Unless Mrs. Porter saw Kyron leave with Terri or was told by the office that Terri checked him out, she did not “know” what happened to him. And we know neither of those things occurred.
Imagine my 3 grandsons are here playing in the house and backyard. I notice the youngest is no longer in the house and I don’t see him in the yard, but his jacket and backpack are still here. I say to myself that his mom must have come early to pick him up and was in a hurry, and I’m sure she’ll be back to get his stuff later. I go back to the kitchen and have a snack with the other kids. The middle child wonders where the youngest is – I say I thought he was in the bathroom, but I guess he went home with his mom. And we all decide to play a game together.
Someone with no “internal alarm” has no business having or taking care of kids. You can’t do everything, you can’t know it all, and, regretfully, you can’t prevent every possible harm that could come to a child, but there are still certain expectations and standards for the job of being responsible for a child.
Re: Ms. Porter.
How old is she? Single, right? First teaching job. Or not? The school sure seems to be protecting her.
She isn’t one of the people who saw SZ, is she? If so, wonder if it might have been someone she knows. I wonder if she is beating herself up about losing track of Kyron, or if she is just going on her merry way, no guilt, no nothing.
Maybe irresponsible, maybe immature. I just know that I wouldn’t want her in charge of any of my children in any class. Wonder how the other parents feel, or if they are so busy blaming TMH (maybe with reason since they probably knew her) that they don’t think twice about Porter’s neglect. I don’t see how anyone can lose a child, say “oops” and then continue in the same position – unless she is just not taking responsibility, head in sand, “not me — it was her” — that kind of attitude.
Of course, now they are saying the school isn’t a crime scene. If there isn’t some kind of crime scene, is there no crime? Is there a reason LE is waiting so long?
I’m still wondering where DAD is. And wouldn’t his own family be worried? And doesn’t his mother live in Grants Pass or somewhere in southern Oregon where someone reported seeing someone who looked like DAD? (I read that, but have totally forgotten the link – maybe here)
I guess everyone is fair game for a looksee until some information starts jiggling itself loose. Lots of questions, no answers. Still hoping that Kyron somehow, somewhere, some way can still come home. I hate these cold, rainy, damp Oregon days where people might be out and about with no way to keep warm. It was weather like this when that little boy was disappeared.
@MockingbirdSings says: November 23, 2012 at 2:20 pm
T. Ruth says:
November 23, 2012 at 10:56 am
@MockingbirdSings says:
November 22, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Thanks for the information. Would all be interesting to see, the log in & attendance records, unfortunately, that’s exactly what LE says was missing form the school, when they finally got around to asking for it.
—————————
I really don’t think attendance records were missing (IMO). They are required to be kept a minimum of 3 years and are part of the district computer system. The records that were missing, were missing because they automatically expired. Attendance records would not be set up to do that. If attendance files were missing, that would be a huge issue for the district and would have to be a major equipment failure/loss or an intentional act, IMO.
I believe they were referring to phone calls that went in and out to whatever numbers, because the school phone system is through the district computer as well.
They may also have meant records of someone logging on to a school computer to send an email that went through the district server but did not go through the district email system (I don’t think district emails are purged that quickly). For example, I had a district email account, but I could also check and send through my Hotmail account. Emails I sent through the district email system could easily be tracked and probably didn’t totally go away even if I deleted them, but, for example, a record of logging on to another email account (using a different, non-district account) had no district purpose and probably wasn’t preserved.
“Logging on” assumes every computer had a password. That was not always the case in my building, although after several incidents of misuse of some computers, that was improved. Computers normally behind locked doors when not in use by staff did not always have password protection, especially if several staff members shared them. Examples: a locked computer lab, a counseling office, a special ed resource center room, the custodian’s office, the librarian’s office area, a parent/volunteer room or workroom. Not all schools have all of these areas, of course, and some would have others.
I can only think of 1 reason why the phone calls would be important – finding out who may have connected with whom on June 4th or maybe June 3rd.
As to computer log on’s, I don’t know. Just because someone logged on to a particular computer, it does not necessarily mean it was that person’s computer. Perhaps information or instructions or pictures could have been found or sent that way.
I believe if it were up to me, I’d have immediately “quarantined” every d*** computer in the school and looked for porn. I know of 3 times that happened at my school over a period of several years, so since I know of 3 that I helped investigate, I assume there were probably more. Once it was a substitute custodian working in the evening, once it was a student who thought it was funny, and I don’t know who was responsible for the third incident. At the very least, I would want to rule out that possibility in this case.
Never during my time did any administrator or district person simply order everyone to put password protection on every computer. Instead they fooled around with programs to limit what sites you could visit and looked at where the computers were located with regard to security, but left passwords up to you. Maybe that has changed.
November 19, 2012
“Around 60 million people log on to the world’s largest free porn website every day – and two thirds of those are doing so from their desks, according to German sex therapist Dr Christoph Ahlers.”
“Berlin-based Dr Ahlers made the claim at a conference in Salzburg, Austria, on medicine and therapies for the treatment of sexual behavioural issues. ‘Modern viewing of porn is no longer something in which strange individuals are engaged in in quiet rooms in video booths,’ he said.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2235301/Watching-pornography-work-fuels-worldwide-addiction-thirds-visits-site-offices.html