Kyron Horman Disappearance Series Part I: Desiree Young V Terri Horman- Civil As An Oxymoron
Civil As An Oxymoron
Desiree Young, Kyron’s biological mother and arguably the bravest soul in recent memory as far as the frantic and grieving mom’s of missing children’s set is concerned, believes her youngest son has been kidnapped by Terri Horman.
Or that she arranged for same by some unknown party and is demanding his location or the location of his remains.
Her recent civil suit filed by Eldon Rosenthal makes these direct allegations against the woman that by her own admission, she entrusted with the care of her toddler son in 2003.
Her suit is demanding $10 million dollars with a reservation to amend to include punitive damages later. The complaint is 5 pages long, or apparently $2million a page.
Last month a ruling by Judge Harry Kantor denying an abatement motion will allow the suit to proceed, for now.
The decision was widely seen as a win for Desiree Young in her tenacious quest to seek answers in the disappearance of her son Kyron from The Skyline School on June 4th, 2010. Headlines throughout the region and the evening talking head regulars praised the Judge’s decision for the Mom who has had no previous success in very public campaigns to engage Terri Horman’s cooperation in the investigation.
The legal community however, not so much. The decision to move the case forward relied largely on the fact that although it was patently clear from Ms. Young’s filing and subsequent public commentary by her and counsel Eldon Rosenthal that she alleges Horman has committed criminal acts resulting in the disappearance of Kyron Horman.
Terri Horman has neither been declared a suspect by police nor has she been indicted by a grand jury who continues to meet on the case.
Kaine Horman, Kyron’s father, learned about the suit filed by his former wife by a member of the media seeking comment on his reaction to it. He has not been made a party to the civil action although he was awarded primary physical custody of the couple’s son in March, 2004.
I count myself with the thousands that want this aggrieved Mother and Father to locate their child regardless of the outcome.
That said, it is ridiculous to think a woman whose criminal attorney has advised her not to respond to a twice- renewed restraining order precluding her from seeing her now 3 year old daughter is going to utter a syllable outside of assertion of her 5th amendment rights during any deposition she is compelled to participate in.
On June 4, 2010, Terri Horman, acting alone or in concert with others, intentionally kidnapped Kyron Horman from ; Skyline Elementary School. Kyron has not been seen or heard from by either of his parents since prior to Terri Horman taking Kyron to school that morning.
Did Not Miss The Memo
The Honorable Harry Kantor penned an accompanying order memorandum to his ruling following oral arguments on August 18th, It is worthy of the Honorable Belvin Perry’s stamp of approval- with the exception of course that is does not contain the phrase, “no earthly idea.”
It did however; contain the first ever direct statement that Terri Horman is a suspect in the investigation, a PRIME suspect, no less. In pertinent part:
“..The focus of the defendant’s motion is to stop the prosecution of this civil case while an ongoing active criminal investigation into both young Kyron Horman’s disappearance in 2010 and a murder-for-hire plot against Kyron’s father, Kaine Horman, is pending, so that the defendant (Terri Horman, Kyron’s step-mother and Kaine’s wife) is not required to decide whether to exercise her constitutional rights against self-incrimination under the United States and Oregon Constitutions before it is necessary to do so in any criminal prosecution which may follow the investigation. The plaintiff is Kyron ‘smother. The defendant is a prime suspect in the investigation …” (emphasis added by me)
Interestingly, Judge Kantor takes it upon himself to declare Terri Horman a prime suspect in BOTH the ongoing criminal investigations of a murder for hire plot and Kyron’s disappearance.
While it is a fair statement to say that both sides agree that Terri Horman is the subject or focus via “laser pointer” of the investigation into Kyron’s disappearance and her attorneys used that point to support abatement. At no time and in no document or filing has either side said Terri Horman was a prime suspect of anything? Where does Judge Kantor come by such information?
For his Honor to state his concern over tainting a jury pool, and then to allege, or divulge, as it were, that Terri Horman is a prime suspect in a murder for hire plot in an ongoing criminal investigation- is he privy to such information from some alternative source that is not contained on the record?
A request for any exparte information should be forthcoming. Where is the conversation with District Attorney Rod Underhill or his office read into the record? It has not been.
Lea Conner, Washington Family Attorney and BOC legal analyst sees Judge Kantor’s take differently:
“…The judge is not referring exclusively to the Desiree Young lawsuit.
Kaine Horman claimed in his TRO petition that law enforcement provided him with probable cause to believe that Terri Horman had attempted to hire someone to kill him.
He again made the same claim in papers filed after the TRO petition (specifically alleging that Terri was sexting the landscaper who she wanted to murder him, then allegedly sexted Michael Cook).
Kaine reiterated his allegations a third time in papers he filed last fall in response to Terri Horman’s motion for parenting time.
Kaine once again claimed Terri Horman tried to hire a hit man when he sought to renew the restraining order in 2011. There was an additional line added to the renewal, and though it sounded like something new, it was just Kaine reiterating the same allegations.
The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment applies to criminal matters, and it does not allow prior testimonial statements of witnesses to be admitted where the witness has since become unavailable. Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004).
Here, we are talking about a civil matter. The Confrontation Clause and the holding of Crawford do not apply to civil matters or other non-criminal proceedings…”
In Oregon, a special appearance is used by a party who wishes to vacate an unauthorized proceeding without consenting to jurisdiction of the court:
A “special appearance” is made by a party when he or his attorney seeks to obtain from the court an order vacating some proceeding which, it is insisted, has been undertaken by the adverse party in an unauthorized manner; such an appearance being thus limited to prevent conferring jurisdiction of the person. Again, Ms. Conner’s thoughts:
…” The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the judge’s point was the last couple of pages that says Terri Horman’s lawyers cannot make any motion without appearing. This is to say that a special appearance allows a challenge as to the validity of a specific action, but it does not otherwise allow an attorney (nor a party) to file other types of motions or to seek other relief, as was done here.
The abatement that the attorneys sought would act as a protective order. Abatement is not a challenge to the propriety nor validity of the underlying action. As such, Terri Horman’s lawyers needed to appear before filing a motion as to the issue of abatement. ..”
Judge Kantor chose the teamwork approach in an adversarial proceeding, and instructed Terri Horman’s counsel they will need to file an appearance. He attempts to present the case’s challenges to both sides and seeks input as to how best to protect the rights of the defendant, in pertinent part:
The court does not have any particular length of time for this delay in mind at this juncture. lnstead, the court would like the parties and their lawyers to consult and confer about the following and then report back:
1. Should the court require the defendant to file an answer to the complaint which admits or denies the plaintiffs allegations or simply allow the defendant to litigate as if she denied those allegations? If so, by when and for how long?
2. Should the plaintiff be required to establish “reasonable suspicion” or “probable cause” (as defined in criminal cases) that the defendant has done what is alleged through other evidence before the defendant is required to answer oral or written deposition questions under oath?
3. Should the plaintiff be required to serve written deposition questions, which would be subject to court review upon proper motion, and review the answers before taking the defendant’s oral deposition?
Once the court has the parties’ answers to these questions, I will meet with the lawyers to form a schedule and plan for this case. Further briefing and hearings may be required as well.
Defacto Suspect Is Defacto Parent?
History is rife with hellacious stories of parents killing their own children, their own families, and ones parent status should not be considered a reason to exclude anyone. In fact, as we all know, it is 90% more likely that Kyron disappeared due to the actions of a parent or family member and all law enforcement investigators begin a parallel investigation of all with access or motive, from the start.
A hypotenuse only exists within a right triangle. This case is anything but.
Horman, through her attorneys has already certified she will protect her right not to incriminate herself and considering one of the remedies Ms. Young is seeking is that she does just that- who chaired the risk vs. reward strategy meeting in this case in its current form?
In Horman’s favor, Oregon law is one of few in the country that specifies that a jury cannot take the fact that she pleads the fifth and ostensibly cannot or is very limited in her ability to defend her case into its deliberation considerations.
Has Desiree Young been appropriately prepared for the litany of possibilities that might arise out of this filing?
Like, say, a counter suit or an effective defense resulting in a dismissal with prejudice? An award for Horman’s attorney fees ?
For the record, for those of you cringing while reading that remark, I cringed at writing it.
When someone files a purposefully vague claim against another accusing them of a criminal act (s) they will be beyond its tensile strength to support, many possibilities of alternative defense strategies become available to the DEFENDANT.
Ms. Young’s complaint made criminal accusations in a civil action that all agree parallel current criminal investigations. However, even if Horman was in a position to defend herself without violating her fifth amendment right, as it is written- the complaint is not even “answerable”.
“I believe we will be able to prove what happened in this case,”- Eldon Rosenthal
Oh? The preponderance of evidence limbo -stick notwithstanding, let’s be honest, it is going to be virtually impossible to prove Kyron was removed from the state with all parties including law enforcement openly stating they have no idea where he is or how he got there.
Outside of that conviction for first degree custodial interference which certainly seems unlikely because nobody is facing such a charge to date, the prima facie reverts to finding Terri Horman liable on the other counts in civil court.
According to legal analyst Bruce McCain, who has closely been following the Kyron case, the suit will be “near impossible to prove, especially when an element of second degree custodial interference is that Terri acted with the intent to hold Kyron permanently of for a protracted period of time.”
Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office has never even classified Kyron’s case as abduction and he is only listed as a missing person on the FBI’s site. Typically crimes need a crime scene, and the Skyline School has certainly never been declared one and astonishingly has not been named a party to this suit. More on that in part 2 of this series.
In summary, Desiree Young is making three allegations. She is claiming either on her own or with help, Terri kidnapped her son Kyron Horman from the Skyline School. Desiree’s own words contradict this claim as to kidnapping:
“She dropped him off that day, but that’s all we know.” – Desiree Young
Desiree is also claiming the intentional infliction of emotional distress through feigning ignorance of the events of June 4, 2010, lying to investigators and lying to the media. Not one quote, not one example is offered in support of this allegation. How can one possibly prove intentional infliction if such statements were never actually uttered to the plaintiff? How does lying to an investigator , if in fact she did, about unknown subject matter, equate to probable cause of the allegation?
What is it’s nexus directly to Desiree Young exactly? Not having the answer in place for that is going to spawn more than a few mutterings of “bad faith” at the bar meetings next month.
Tony Young has stated that as a collegial gesture, he was NOT given any information about the specifics in the investigation of Kyron’s disappearance and has publicly only said “If not Terri than who?”
Peter Bunch called the suit law enforcements stalking horse. Judge Kantor seems to agree with Bunch that due to the protection of the ongoing criminal case, that participation from any law enforcement personnel will be non-existent. Rosenthal seems to be more optimistic in his deuces tecum prowess, apparently.
Bruce McCain, could not be more on point. The burden to prove the allegations against Terri Horman rest squarely on her accuser. MCSO recently participated in the filming of Americas Most Wanted, and have spoken publicly about the case on numerous occasions. They have allegedly provided information directly to Desiree Young and Kaine Horman, which is now a matter of public record.
Deposing a law enforcement officer or twenty prior to the possible future criminal filing against your client with the knowledge none of the information has gleaned an indictment to date, is the equivalent to the key to the evidence locker of the case. Will it be a game of quash for all? Certainly, and Bunch has already said so.
“I have nothing to say about Terri Horman” Captain Jason Gates, MCSO
I have never seen Terri Horman give a recorded press interview. I am aware of no statute that exists to compel anyone to be honest with a member of the media on your doorstep seeking comment. ( although I might be in favor that as a card carrier- )
The scales of lady justice require balance for a reason. Glenn Close and Rose Byrne have already concluded the final season of Damages and I dare say those producers have more manufactured story line of fake criminal cases then this very real situation could deliver for fiction-even.
If Terri Horman, through counsel, decides to file for a dismissal of the suit, or defend it in PART- as it appears Judge Kantor has already laid the groundwork for, what should we expect?
You have to respect a judge who is coaching from the bench, and he did.
Technically speaking, under Oregon law, Terri Horman was Kyron Horman’s defacto or psychological parent. The “best interest” standard is a relatively low threshold in this case. Please see review courtesy of Kramer Associates regarding “After Troxel.” (link : http://www.kramer-associates.com/mkgrandparentsrightsaftertroxel.pdfKramer Associates)
I asked Atty Lea Conner to weigh in on this possible third party parent strategy to challenge standing of Ms. Young’s suit, as well as any impeachment or award matrix issues :
“…Third party custody issues are tricky in any case. You need to refer to Troxel v, Granville – Troxel is a US Supreme Court ruling that a parent’s rights trump those of third parties.- One Oregon case cited (Wilson v. Wilson) is particularly devastating to Terri Horman. In Wilson, the court found that custody must be awarded to the mother in order to preserve a sibling relationship between the natural child of the mother and the common child (AKA “joint child”) of both parties-
The Wilson case is interesting, because potentially, a parent contemplating divorce with contested custody might want to discourage the relationship between natural child of one party in order to prevent the natural parent from gaining an advantage in obtaining custody. Could Terri Horman argue that this was Kaine’s motive in sending James to live in Roseburg in early 2010? (Kaine denies sending James away, and claims that it was Terri’s fault that he moved. James and his father in Roseburg have made statements indicating James and Kaine had ongoing conflict, which contradicts Kaine’s version of events and supports Terri Horman’s claims.)”
The Troxel case has affected laws in virtually all of the states, and has significantly reduced previously recognized rights of grandparents, step-parents and psychological parents in favor of birth parents.
Why Terri Horman may be in a position to defend her relationship with Kyron, but not as a parent per se:
5. Wilson and Wilson, 184 Or App 212 (2002), CA A113524. Custody of stepchild awarded to stepfather, along with parties’ joint child, reversed. Under Troxel, custody of the mother’s natural child must be awarded to fit birth mother and because of the sibling relationship, custody of the parties’ joint child must also be awarded to mother. [See Case Note 20 discussion below for Court of Appeals decision on remand from Supreme Court.]
Interestingly, I note that nobody brought up the fact that Desiree once accused Kaine Horman of at least the possibility that he was capable of kidnapping her sons, and was granted a restraining order based on the potential recognized by the court in a similar possible offense.
“.. our Lives are no longer private. Investigators are going to want very detailed information of our personal lives..” Tony Young, Kyron Horman’s stepfather.
What will absolutely add insult to injury in this case will be the fact that in order to indirectly defend Terri Horman, her lawyers will need to vilify Desiree young in front of a jury. They will have to remove the more than deserving, grieving and egregiously wronged Mother’s invisible halo, and they have enough to work with. There is no way around it as unfair as it seems, it is what it is.
EDIT NOTE: In August 1995 a woman with the same name as Desiree Davidson was living with a man who was a convicted felon and the target of more than a few secret indictments a few years earlier. She filed a Family Abuse Protection Complaint against him for assault and he was arrested on a separate felony charge a week later. David Roy Davis may be connected to an entirely different Desiree, but the record came through on a search under Ms. Young’s date of birth as well. The point is, their will be lots of digging on everyone.
In March of 2004, Desiree Young claimed that serious liver problems from an undisclosed, non- FDA approved medicine required her to move to Canada for treatment. She relinquished physical custody of both her sons under the guise that she would not be required to now pay child support as filed in the stipulations of the respective cases. Ms. Young maintained a Seattle, WA address at that time and the last custody order states a very different custody arrangement than what Desiree has mentioned publicly.
If she was seeing Kyron more than once a month, then it was by verbal agreement with Kaine’s approval but this is yet again an unfortunate example of impeachment possibility. The “seeking treatment “details will unfortunately be public information that she has refused to discuss. You get the idea.
Desiree has also admitted asking Kaine to consider modifying the custody arrangement and allowing Kyron to go live with her. Kaine said no and would not discuss it further, but Terri Horman was in favor of it.
Both Desiree and Kaine have conceded Kyron had a few issues of concern in school the prior part of the year, in fact they went so far as to say they were concerned their reaction to it with him might have played a part in his disappearance.
How is it that if having issues at school can be a helpful argument to a non-custodial parent seeking custody modification that nobody considered that Terri was actually working to support Desiree’s possible case?
Kaine has confirmed that they had a discussion about a doctor appointment for Kyron, so this possibility has corroboration.
For the past 2+ years Desiree Young has done everything conceivable to progress answers in the disappearance of her son and I applaud her for that. I am equally as concerned about the emotional toll this lawsuit will take on her as I have been about the effects of the loss of her son.
Catch as Catch Can
Omitted entirely in any coverage of Judge Kantor’s order and memo announcement or previous reactions to the civil filings, is the fact that if Terri Horman is or was involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman, she is about to get a front row seat to the case against her without saying a word.
Under current criminal procedure in Oregon, once a person is indicted, the defendant receives little more than the actual indictment order. This is usually under seal until an arrest warrant is executed, but it does not contain witnesses, testimony, evidence or any hint at the content that was discussed since the grand jury began reviewing the case and the triers of fact rendered a verdict to indict the party.
In this parallel discovery minefield, arguably tantamount to a mock trial in front of a defacto suspect, the plaintiff will be forced to compel witnesses that have testified before the grand jury, any evidence they have been made aware of, and in some cases they have not, and all of this essentially erodes the sanctity of the grand jury advantage over a criminal defendant. In particular, Oregon uses the grand jury proceeding as many other states use a preliminary hearing. And btw, this is Stephen Houze’s dominion.
While Bunch’s motion for abatement indicates police will refuse to turn over documents or materials pointing to guilt or exculpation, they simply cannot assist the plaintiff without assisting the defense as the discovery is reciprocal across the board. That said, I would expect District Attorney Rod Underhill to seek protection orders against releasing any information classified as part of the case file of an active criminal investigation.
How will that work if the majority of information is clearly being conveyed in an ad hoc method of “you can refer to it in your filings but we will not produce it for your use at a civil trial?”
The reality is that if Terri Horman is involved in the disappearance of Kyron Horman in any capacity this suit as it is structured in the instant matter will do more to assist her defense team than it will ever produce incriminating and usable intelligence to indict her.
It will not provide any detail as to Ky’s whereabouts that MCSO does not already know.
I can hear the protagonists in my ear already- but the scope of criminal subpoena power and reach is intensely more narrow than that of the civil standard so won’t this be an opportunity to glean information LE did not have access to?
Who in their right mind believes that nine multi-disciplined Federal and State Law Enforcement Agencies including those tasked with measures and responsibility of our National Security did not or do not have access to every shred of data a civil order can produce?
The Honorable Judge Kantor requested a position by the District Attorney and invited Underhill to attend the hearing, whereby DA Underhill stated he had no position on the matter.
Kantor is allowing the case to move forward absent an indictment or an official position from the DA, but I predict that is a temporary decision. The DA and MCSO is absolutely going to have a position when the motions to compel discovery arrive by the wheelbarrow followed closely by the freightliner full of FOIA requests. Once it is released for a civil trial it is releasable to the public.
What- No Joinder?
Lastly, as Kyron’s Father, it is odd that Kaine Horman would not be a party to this action. If the goal was a behind the scenes tag team to exhaust the funds of Terri Horman over simultaneous cases I sincerely hope that a considerable amount of time was spent on the possibility that they may be waking the sleeping giant. Desiree Young has an online donation site soliciting funds for her legal fees which injury cases are usually taken on a contingency basis and Kaine Horman has everything to gain by not dividing his assets with his estranged wife in November, when the abatement is lifted.
The fact that a recently retired Civil Attorney who has international homes is willing to come out of retirement to take this case would make me very nervous. Mark H. Wagner signed on yesterday.
If Terri Horman has nothing to hide as it relates to Kyron’s disappearance, this is her one shot to get her life back and clear her name.
The public pendulum will never be swinging so slowly to hear from her why it should stop- as it is right now.
If she was involved, in any way, this civil case is going to unearth the unintentional mistakes and snafus of the well meaning mean and women in law enforcement who have worked this case. It will render it nearly impossible to ever prosecute her successfully whether Kyron is ever located or not. This legal team will have at least 3 plausible alternative suspects, have the jury blaming law enforcement and believing Kyron is alive somewhere and may be better off.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
It may give a grief-stricken Mother a $10 Million judgment she can never collect, but as Peter Bunch said in his argument, it will not give her the answers she seeks.
I terrified my interrogation subjects, but I never got intelligence.
Astute. True. Maddening for all that are interested in this case but of course begs the question-
If tortboarding will not work, at some point, does it make sense to start over with a fresh perspective of elimination versus inclusion?
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
When confronted by her alleged accomplice, Rodolpho “Rudy” Sanchez directly in a failed sting rivaling RENO 911- she actually called 911.
The sting was heard by more than a few scanner enthusiasts, as reported exclusively by BOC(insert link)
Why was it decided Terri Horman was the mariticidic filicide in a flash?
And why were all other avenues excluded almost as quickly as Jung opened the window for the scarab?
Coming Soon- Part 2
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Catching up on some reading (I unfortunately didn’t catch AMW, but will tonight hopefully). The “Beaverton” thing isn’t as wrong as out-of-towners may think. I live on the other side of town, and depending on who I’m talking to I either live in Portland or Gresham. I was on Skyline Blvd the other day and if asked would have said “I’m in Beaverton.” The way the area is set up, it’s all the same and different at the same time. I don’t think it has any bearing that AMW used “Beaverton.”
I would really like to just “k.i.s.s” all these theories and names to facts. People can very rarely keep quiet about anything this long. I think both KH and DY have done themselves and Kyron a disservice by continuing the focus on Terri after this long. Why, as a parent, wouldn’t you want the widest possible net cast until something solid was found?
FYI-I REALLY want you guys helping with my personal mystery. We’re looking for birth parents for someone close to me and I have no doubt, that with the research skills of some of you fine folks here, they would be found post haste
Blink,
SNIP> Going to say again, the FBI should be leading this case.
B
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are you able to say why they are not? And what needs to be done to have them doing so?
They have not been asked.
B
Looking forward to part II. Does anyone know if the two attorneys, Rosenthal and Wagner’s (I guess) responses to the 3 questions the judge asked will be made public? I wonder if the Judge will be allowing more time on this case because of the addition of a new attorney?
If that was even a possibility, I can see where she would think she didn’t have even the slightest chance of winning anything against Kaine since he was supposed to be so controlling. So she would have been desperate to try the next thing, but then tried to back out.
Looks like she lost anyway, and Kaine ended with the baby. Only problem is that Kyron is lost in all of this. So both lost.
@Mom3.0 says: September 17, 2012 at 12:21 am
- for the only reason I can see( if Terri is totally innocent of what happened to Kyron)that Terri wouldnt want to fight for custody or speak out- is if she had something to hide IRT the Kaine murder plot…
Sometime between 8AM and 9AM Skyline seventh-grader T.K., whose science fair project was on antimatter. “I just saw him (Kyron) in the gym, and I saw the truck out in the parking lot,” he said Wednesday. T.K. said Kyron was looking at other students’ science fair projects, seemed happy and was with friends. He saw him without Terri Horman.[4]
http://missingchildren.wikia.com/wiki/Kyron_Horman
Where did that information come from: Sometime between 8AM & 9AM?
I do not recall T.K. ever saying what time he saw anything or anyone. In fact, IIRC, he said he was asked by LE specifically not to mention what time he saw either event. The article wiki references says this:
One person who has been asked again about what he saw is Skyline seventh-grader Tyler Kessinger, whose science fair project was on antimatter. He said investigators came back to interview him last week at his home.
“I just saw him (Kyron) in the gym, and I saw the truck out in the parking lot,” he said Wednesday. Kessinger said Kyron was looking at other students’ science fair projects, seemed happy and was with friends.
Kessinger said he hopes it’s all cleared up soon because it’s a frightening situation for him.
“Just knowing someone took him and not coming out and confessing, and that he’s probably in some other random place,” he said.
He said when he saw Kyron in the gym he didn’t see Terri Horman with him. He and his family have turned over pictures they took at the science fair to investigators, but they’ve been asked not to disclose the timeframe in which he saw Kyron.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/98434609.html
We simply have not been told when TK saw these things. For all we know, he saw the truck in the parking lot later in the day during Terri’s unaccounted for time, which I doubt, but just sayin’ we don’t know. For all we know, he saw Kyron alone with friends in the gym when Terri was supposedly taking the picture, @ 8:30, which Zimmerman confirmed, anyway we just don’t know. We also don’t know why LE asked them not to say, but I sure wish we did. Sigh.
Rose says: September 17, 2012 at 9:16 am
——–
Do we know for certain that RS was not given a polygraph prior to the sting? Dang, it is hard to believe that some landscaper could tell them something like a MFH plot, and they wouldn’t at least try to verify it a little bit, before setting up a sting. Too many ways to backfire.. Well, it did backfire I guess, so maybe that answers my own question. Where the heck is RS now? Are LE keeping an eye on him?
————–
“can you do the same for the mfh? meaning, is there any evidence other than RS’ unpolygraphed word or
any evidence (texts?) corroborating his word?”
Idahogal says:
September 16, 2012 at 5:00 pm
I forgot to mention this from AMW- JW asked KH if Kiara had been able to verbalize anything about that day, June 4, 2010. KH indicated “No”- I don’t have a link yet so this is all memory. I know that way back when, some of us had hoped maybe Kiara would be able to tell something, provide some clues about that day, however it appears not, at least for now.
————–
I think that everything JW ask Kaine on AMW was pre scripted. In other words Kaine knew what JW was going to ask and JW knew what Kaines answers were going to be. So why even ask Kaine if Kiara remembered anything about June 4 if JW already knew what the answer was going to be?
1. Kaine actually answered the question differently and for some reason it was edited.
2. The fact that Kiara does not remember anything is being publicly stated for her future safety.
I also think that Kaines answer about the MFH was because of Kaines up and coming divorce.
It seems this AMW show was used as a forum for Kaine to get his message out and had little to do with the discovery of Kyrons whereabouts. JMO
Blink thanks for the response and for your ability to agree to the possibility. Total agreement on motives BTW
I apologize for the length..here goes….
You wrote in part:
“Until such time as a stranger opportunistic offender can be excluded, that theory holds the same weight for me because it absolutely happens and I do not believe it possible for TH to directly plan and execute the “vanishing” of a 7 year old boy from his school without a shred of evidence of any kind pointing to her or an accomplice attached to her.”
MOST DEFINITELY little Kyron could have been abducted from the school by a as yet unknown person whether that be a stranger or an acquaintance-
IMO it had to be someone aware of the science fair and the open door policy and hectic chaotic scene inside the school
But yes most definitely any parent that has ever attended such a function is sadly aware of how easy it is for a stranger to walk among those who are there legitimately-
and anyone who has worked in schools realizes how easy it is for these events to lead to a student going missing for a time- due to poor planning – many schools in fact require all visitors and children to sign in at the office and then escort their children to their “homeroom” in order to take attendance and to make sure there is a definite safe hand off to the teacher or aid- or further require the parent to accompany the child throughout the event at all times
- and all visitors must have an easily identifiable name tag in full view- so as to make it harder for a stranger to walk among them unnoticed-
why were none of these safety measures in place that day? I do not know— but they should have been, not just for the childrens safety but for the schools protection also-
IDK but they better have them now
Yes Blink a stranger theory holds as much weight with me. How could it not?
As you know, LE works cases in a circle working out from the family-
Unfortunately, if Terri is innocent in the the disappearance of little Kyron- for some reason LE was unable to exclude her as a potential perp- Why? Is it because they have tunnel vision or is it because she refuses to speak therefore as hard as they tried they couldnt clear her- or did all avenues lead back to Terri IDK
Blink, you wrote:
“I do not believe it possible for TH to directly plan and execute the “vanishing” of a 7 year old boy from his school without a shred of evidence of any kind pointing to her or an accomplice attached to her.”
First, please correct me if I am mistaken I might be because as hard as i try to read along you all move so fasrt on Kys threads… but are we all 100% sure that Kyron disappeared from Skyline meaning from inside the school- and not with Terri?
Just because Terri brought him to school does not mean he stayed put-
I cant recall how many times, as a parent -I dropped my child off at school, sometimes inside the school, mere footsteps away from their classroom only to reach my car to see them standing there- saying oops I forgot my lunch- my jacket- my homework -my phone… or standing there with a friend to say Mom is it okay if I bring so and so home or go to their house after school…
and still there were other times, other not so nice times when my kids for one reason or another suddenly did not feel well, or for no reason at all didnt want to attend school that day- and rushed to head me off to beg to go home or with me to an errand they wished to go on… like to the doctors with their baby sibling- because they knew that usually meant a special stop off at the grocery store or other.
Could a scenario such as this have played out at the car and Terri took Kyron with her begrudgingly and then flustered and tired could she have accidentally harmed Kyron?
Blink I am unaware of any direct evidence of Terri’s involvement also- but I do not claim to know what the police know- just because I am unaware of the evidence – whether physical or merely circumstantial which LE may have pointing to Terri, or to a once conspirator or a possible accomplice of Terri’s doesnt mean it does not exist does it?
In another case you once stated an unequivocal truth- you said-
paraphrasing:
LE Knowing what happened and who did it -sadly does not always mean they have enough evidence to arrest or to prosecute…. many cases are not “cold” just not prosecutable
–
Again -it seems either LE is almost certain that TH is involved in Kyrons disappearance- but cant prove it in a court of law yet- or their inability to clear her has clouded their vision and tunneled it thereby they have directly poisoned the case and Kaines and Desirees thoughts-
I can not say which scenario has led to this case being cold- I do not know- but why is it we are all here still years later asking some of the same questions and still we are unsure of so much-
last thought
Kaine has alot to gain by keeping the harsh spotlight on Terri and he may in fact be feeding the info to LE and to Desiree which paints Terri as capaable of this- he certainly must feel scorned by Terri could this be driving his thoughts and actions? he must of at first had his feelings hurt and he must have been embarrassed too and mad over the possible murder plot— can his version of the truth be self serving YOU BET- therefore it is suspect-JMO
Why was Terri supposedly hiring someone to kill Kaine- what makes this believable to so many? What horrible things did Terri feel he did? Was she trying to protect Ky and her son and daughter from him h- or was it greed—or is it a lie? IDK
LE and Desiree -we dont know why they feel the way they do did LE poison Kaine or did Kaine poison them and they poisoned Desiree- or is Terri as awful as they think?
Which came first the chicken or the egg?
IDK
AJMO
Peace
1. Exactly.
2. TH was seen leaving the school with Kiara, and Ky was seen afterwards in schol, post her appearance at a store. He did not leave with TH and if there were any chance of that, TH would have been arrested in June 2010.
B
There are only three entities that I know of that can “vanish” a person with “no shred of evidence” – the mafia, the military and the government. I am not convinced, no matter how cunning, that a lone SZ could pull this off, not get noticed, leave no trace or tracks and assure the erasure of pertinent school records.
This was probably not orchestrated by a backwoods perp, neighbor, teen, angry housewife or scorned ex-lover.
For whatever reason to take Kyron, this abduction was planned perfectly and timed impeccably. All area first responders were attending a memorial on the same morning as a “chaotic” SF.
Why did it take LE 45 mins to arrive post 911 call?
Shades of the Franklin scandal?
Beginning to believe this is beyond the mind of TMH and even MCSO.
What was DAD so afraid of and where is he?
Venetia says: September 17, 2012 at 12:19 pm
——-
Deposition, deposition, deposition.. until SOME truthful facts come out!
——-
■Sometime between 8AM and 9AM Skyline seventh-grader T.K., whose science fair project was on antimatter. “I just saw him (Kyron) in the gym, and I saw the truck out in the parking lot,” he said Wednesday. T.K. said Kyron was looking at other students’ science fair projects, seemed happy and was with friends. He saw him without Terri Horman.
http://missingchildren.wikia.com/wiki/Kyron_Horman
■9:00AM Law Enforcement believe TH left school around 9:00AM
■(time not released) a friend of Kyron’s sees him alone and Kyron says ‘I’m going downstairs to see an electric exhibit’
@T.Ruth
(snipped) “If she last saw Kyron @8:45 on his way to his classroom and she actually physically drove away from the school at 9:00, then some kids saw Kyron after 8:45, and yet, LE says no one saw Kyron after 8:45.
Uggggh, this case, why can’t they just put out something besides factoids.
—————————————————————
What happened to SZ who called Ky by name..or the witness who could give no description of such SZ? fact or factoid?
@cdsays
“It seems this AMW show was used as a forum for Kaine to get his message out and had little to do with the discovery of Kyrons whereabouts. JMO”
********
Interesting choice of words, cd. What exactly is Kaine’s message? What did we or anyone else get out of that AMW. We got to see Kyron’s face then & now. What else? Kaine Horman has continued for two years now to give out mixed messages, Terri did it. Terri may have done it. Terri may have acted alone. Terri may have had an accomplice. Terri may not even be involved. WTH?
The only message I’ve gotten from Mr. Horman is that he believes his son is alive. All though at one point he did say that Kaira may have been witness to some horrible act, which I assume he meant an injury or worse being done to Kyron.
Usually, AMW programs leave us with a description of someone to look for, or a description of where to look the person, for instance in the preceding Trejo story, look for Trejo where he likes to hangout in transexual or porn bars? In Beaverton?
Where do we look for Kyron? Why isn’t Kaine looking for Kyron? Why has he never looked for Kyron?
I was thinking about the silly Koloring with Kyron Kontest the other day. I’ve never come up with a good reason for it’s purpose. They ask children to send in pictures of Kyron at his favorite activities. I am now wondering, is it possible they thought maybe a child who had been at one of Kyron’s favorite activities with him, might just paint in a picture of SZ. Maybe of SZ buying Kyron candy at the Roller Derby or taking him for a ride on a motorcycle, or buying him something at the zoo. Is it possible they really expected a clue might be submitted in a child’s drawing? IDK, I’m grasping for straws again trying to make sense of more things that make no sense.
I know that the MFH accusation won’t be the primary chase in DY’s civil case, but…
I can walk outside right now, stroll down to my local village police station, have some of their bad coffee, and tell them that my ex-husband took a hit out on me that didn’t pan out.
That’s it? And then what? I have no proof. I have no tape recordings. I have no vids. I have no money trail. I have nothing.
What did RS (or whoever RS is) say to LE that convinced them that the MFH accusation was legit?
How the hell do you have evidence for that if you have no evidence?
Did LE GET evidence? Do they know for certain that the MFH plan occurred? That’s the oddest thing to me. It’s a terrible crime, and other MFHs are discovered in this country all the time and busted.
So why not this one?
Well I am going to assume for a timeframe they had probable cause based on evidence of some kind.
You don’t get a DEA undercover dude without it, at a minimum, however, it may have been wholly unrelated to this case. Maybe an existing investigation?
B
Thank you for answering me Blink. So it is in Kaine’s best interest both financially and to keep custody of Kiara to promote the idea that TMH did it.
On another note, I cannot believe in the scenario that he is stashed somewhere by either Kaine or TMH because as a parent I could never in a million years entertain the fact that I would not see my child/step child for any extended period of time. I hate it when my daughter goes back to college and she is only 45 minutes away from me.
I have always thought that LE, in it’s investigation of TH, found the Mother’s Day 911 call, which led them to RS. During that interview with RS, he was asked to *explain* things, and he offered up the MFH. It would be my guess that some two way electronic communication led them to believe it could be credible. What we seem to be questioning in other instances of this case is the origins of electronic communication. Food for thought and MOO.
BTW, Meg Sharpton’s thread is fascinating with respect to everything, from the information, the advocacy and the community involvement you have received.
Agreed on the mfh.
Oye on Meg’s case. I thought I learned professional distance.
For source:
http://blinkoncrime.com/2012/09/14/megan-sharpton-murder-suspect-declares-himself-just-that-family-and-alleged-accomplice-terrified-of-donnie-jones/
T. Ruth says:
September 17, 2012 at 1:18 pm
“Terri specifically said there were no men on the list, so either she lied about that or she never saw the list and someone simply told her there were no male chaperones on the list. Hmmmm. I’d still like to know who told her he was seen with a man and two little girls in the first place.”
Kind of brings to mind the photo TH took of Kyron with a man, a girl and whoever else was out of view behind and to the right of the little girl.
From what I remember reading, LE had identified the photographed “Mystery Man” and said he was not considered a person of interest.
Yes, it would be interesting to know who came up with the “seen with a man ‘chaperone’ and 2 girls”.
T.Ruth, I realize I wasn’t very clear when I tossed out the possible financial gain via suing the school theory, my apologies.
In the hypothetical scenario, KH/hubby is a victim as well . . . used by a person or 2 as the one with the right as the legal parent to file suit and receive money damages.
Blink,
So if we throw out TH having any direct involvement in K’s disappearance and throw out a mfh or an attempted solicitation of one, there is definitely one thing we can’t throw out and that is TH’s legal stating they will advise their client to plead the 5th to protect herself from self-incrimination.
If not K’s disappearance and not a mfh, then what, what, what?
What else is sooooooo bad that a mother will forgo her daughter for over 2 years?
The very real threat of never seeing her. The threat of someone taking her as well.
Can one imagine if TH was not involved, the fear of her own daughter being next if in her care?
I can honestly say, that might be the one thing that would keep me from my baby. If being with me might have them meet the same end as Kyron. Or worse, if I thought it entirely probable.
B
@Paula 7:11 -
I have been sitting on top of this fence so long that I’m almost afraid of the ground. I 100% understand what you are saying. I am not discrediting your opinion, I am just sharing where my thoughts happen to be.
Much of my weariness (and many others, as they have expressed)is caused by finding it unfathomable for a mother to essentially chose silence and freedom over her child if she knows that that there is no hard proof that she is involved or if she is innocent of what she is basically being accused of. If I’m a juror on a hypothetical criminal trial against her, given the facts and circumstantial happenings that the public has right now, I would not be able to say ‘Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt’. So, what act is she afraid of incriminating herself in, or being incriminated in, if there is NO proof of her involvement? What could the D.A. have that could potentially carry a sentence worse than not being able to see her child for years? I’m assuming a potential Felony charge (because she’s already surpassed the amount of jail time that a typical misdemeanor charge would carry). If she is this afraid of potentially being charged and found guilty of a Felony with just circumstantial evidence, NO proof, AND Houze as her lawyer, my brain has to question that. All with respect, and of MOO.
Some may ask – how does this help find Kyron? In my opinion, if Terri is cleared or charged, investigators can spend much more time on other potential suspects and/or associates.
Someone knows something, and they aren’t talking. Who? I don’t know, but I really really hope that someone does.
How many cases that a parent/step parent sent their child with a stranger to get back at a spouse for reasons other than fearing for their child’s safety…. none.
So Kaine’s claim that Terri and ??? took and sent Kyron away for several theorized reasons and Kaine states that Kyron is out there somewhere and to look for him but that Terri did it…. is not logical
If a SZ took Kyron, that is logical for the public to look for him.
LE tried there hardest to pin it on Terri and in every instance they failed otherwise Terri would have been charged by now. If LE told the parents at Skyline not to talk to the media, etc and in the same breath said we think Terri did it…. No one is going to come forward with info since everyone has been told Terri did it. Maybe some have and LE dismissed it because it doesn’t fit “their theory”.
LE flubbed this investigation 100 times over, the parents are barking up the wrong tree, imo.
Well. This makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn’t they be working on this? It’s a missing child, maybe kidnapped, for pete’s sake. Why aren’t the parents making a big stink about that – unles they have “personal” reasons not to. Or local LE??
FBI was here, involved at the start. How do they become involved again? I can’t imagine local LE saying they are smarter than the FBI. And it sounds (with the I-5 Corridor stuff that goes on) like they should be. And at this point, they are probably the ONLY ones who can find out anything.
@kimberly says: September 17, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Blink,
SNIP> Going to say again, the FBI should be leading this case.
B
*******************************
are you able to say why they are not? And what needs to be done to have them doing so?
They have not been asked.
B
This might post twice; hope not. Well. This makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn’t they be working on this? It’s a missing child, maybe kidnapped, for pete’s sake. Why aren’t the parents making a big stink about that – unles they have “personal” reasons not to. Or local LE??
FBI was here, involved at the start. How do they become involved again? I can’t imagine local LE saying they are smarter than the FBI. And it sounds (with the I-5 Corridor stuff that goes on) like they should be. And at this point, they are probably the ONLY ones who can find out anything.
@kimberly says: September 17, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Blink,
SNIP> Going to say again, the FBI should be leading this case.
B
*******************************
are you able to say why they are not? And what needs to be done to have them doing so?
They have not been asked.
B
@wpg.
Terri must be silent otherwise she’ll end up
being jailed (whether there is any evidence on any aspect of Kyron’s abduction or not)
on easy to prove perjury charges if any tiny factoid she misremembers (as we all do)
under oath varies in the slightest from that factoid’s variation being provable otherwise
by any objective means. That is why DA is trying to get her under oath in any forum imo.
Twould give him an easy case & imprisonment. And then Kaine would have the daughter
& family money.
So can MCSO request FBI take lead wothout approval by DA?
Can DA override?
Would be very hard for Staton to do after $ were pumped into his budget
in the first year. To say hey Council Council, got nothing to show for it.
Kyron Horman normally took the bus to and from school. Is it simply a coincidence that on June 4 2010 after his Step-Mom drove him to school he vanished shortly after she left?
(egads I’m starting to sound like a prosecutor)
Has anyone researched the background of the TK family? We are checking everyone else out, so wondered.
TK was a 7th grader at the time (antimatter/SF) (cool electric??), is 9th grade now.
I’d hate to think that a child would have anything to do with hurting another child, but it happens. If something bad DID happen, I don’t know any parent who would easily give their child up to LE. Maybe that’s why I’m wondering if anyone checked out his family?
Reading here: http://realitychatter.forumotions.com/t2658-tanner-pumala-and-tyler-kessinger
Specifically, this post: http://realitychatter.forumotions.com/t2658-tanner-pumala-and-tyler-kessinger#62319 (same website)
I also wonder if there were any bullies in those higher grades. Sometimes older children take a dislike to another for unexplained reasons, and act out.
@ T. Ruth says: September 17, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Re-visiting some old links brings to mind some lingering
questions.
8:45 was the time that groups were forming to tour the SF
Source:
http://missingchildren.wikia.com/wiki/Kyron_Horman
I can’t get past the statement that Kyron was not “seen”
after 8:45. Some of my questions:
When Kyron’s group returned to the classroom, the woman
chaperone leading his group cried out “where’s Kyron” or
something on that order per Tanner. Ms Porter told the
chaperone that he was likely in the bathroom or getting a
drink of water.
Did the Chaperone just then realize that Kyron was missing?
or
Did she ever see him in her group? How long & where/when?
or
Was she just then informed that he was in her group and
she did not realize that- did not see him and freaked?
and
If Ms Porter told the Chaperone he was in the restroom or
getting a drink, why did she then mark him absent a short
time later at 10:00am?
and/or
If Kyron was not with the Chaperone and his group, could
he have been one of the kids that Dave Stensen mentioned?
If he was with the kids that ran outside, that would have
been in the 8:45 to 9am time frame and that would line up
with what Desiree mentioned about Kyron being spotted in
the parking lot or near a vehicle?
Could Kyron have spotted the kids running out the door and
was curious – followed after them and then someone sidetracked
him?
If Kyron did run outside with or after the other kids,
that still leaves the above questions re: Chaperone.
Jden says:
September 17, 2012 at 2:26 pm
There are only three entities that I know of that can “vanish” a person with “no shred of evidence” – the mafia, the military and the government. I am not convinced, no matter how cunning, that a lone SZ could pull this off, not get noticed, leave no trace or tracks and assure the erasure of pertinent school records.
This was probably not orchestrated by a backwoods perp, neighbor, teen, angry housewife or scorned ex-lover.
For whatever reason to take Kyron, this abduction was planned perfectly and timed impeccably. All area first responders were attending a memorial on the same morning as a “chaotic” SF.
Why did it take LE 45 mins to arrive post 911 call?
Shades of the Franklin scandal?
**********
Couldn’t agree more.
Respectfully and from a strictly forensic perspective- I am aware of none.
It may take years, it may take actually finding it, but there is no such thing as an evidence free crime.
B
@ Blink:
——-
Blink, IMO, if Terri had a legitimate fear for her life or for the life of her daughter, wouldn’t she have told her attorney by now? Wouldn’t she be working with him and LE behind the scene to bust the person(s)she was fearful of? This doesn’t make sense to me. I doubt she has, otherwise, LE wouldn’t be pounding her so hard as their POI..
___________
Can one imagine if TH was not involved, the fear of her own daughter being next if in her care?
I can honestly say, that might be the one thing that would keep me from my baby. If being with me might have them meet the same end as Kyron. Or worse, if I thought it entirely probable.
B
Not if that information was or could be construed as criminal culpability on her part.
I do not personally believe she has a clue where Kyron is.
B
opps… forgot to source my post
http://www.katu.com/news/local/100663409.html
Groundskeeper interviewed on 8 13 10
Stensen changed his initial statement of arriving
as the Skyline School at 7:45 and leaving at 8:45 to
leaving around 9 am.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIiDe5uib6c
Interview with Stensen
Now missing from the interview is David Stensens’
mention of the kids running outside, but the Youtube
video has a comment re that statment to confirm the
now missing info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tAZ1FmHtcI&feature=related
Interview with Tanner Pumala friend of Kyron Horman
Tanner re: the “substitute” as he calls the chaperone -
who noticed that Kyron was missing…
Seems if she noticed that he was missing then she must have
known he was in her group at some point.
@ Venetia says: September 17, 2012 at 5:45 pm
——-
Oh my gosh, Venetia, your post mimicked everything I was thinking. I was just formulating something very similar to post myself. We are on the same exact wavelength today.
wpg says:
September 17, 2012 at 4:08 pm
Blink, So if we throw out TH having any direct involvement in K’s disappearance and throw out a mfh or an attempted solicitation of one, there is definitely one thing we can’t throw out and that is TH’s legal stating they will advise their client to plead the 5th to protect herself from self-incrimination. If not K’s disappearance and not a mfh, then what, what, what? What else is sooooooo bad that a mother will forgo her daughter for over 2 years?
Blink says: The very real threat of never seeing her. The threat of someone taking her as well.
Can one imagine if TH was not involved, the fear of her own daughter being next if in her care?
I can honestly say, that might be the one thing that would keep me from my baby. If being with me might have them meet the same end as Kyron. Or worse, if I thought it entirely probable.
*******************************
Me says: So TH’s silence is fear-driven or guilt-driven or a combo? Why would she be so fearful for Kiara, if Kaine is not? Or he doesn’t seem to be at least. Why wouldn’t she “tell all” so Kaine et al. could make double dang sure Kiara is safe? If whichever of them let in the vampire(s), would the possible “threat” to Kiara not still be there while in Kaine’s care as well? Not thinking those that would poof one little boy have much of a conscience whether she doesn’t spill the beans or not. All those agencies involved early on….what on earth were she/they involved with, for Pete’s sake?! Kyron worries me so much I often wake up at 4 am for potty break and check BOC comments to see that Blink & Co. have been moderating comments in the wee hours! Make sure you get plenty of rest, Ms. Blink!
@Jden says:
September 17, 2012 at 2:26 pm
Jden, of course you quite right about it being very difficult to disappear someone without a trace of evidence. Thing is, just because LE isn’t finding the evidence that leads to Kyron, it doesn’t mean there isn’t any.
Etan Patz’s case is a perfect example, had LE been looking in the right place, no doubt they would have found evidence. They even once questioned the perp, but looked neither at him, nor around him, any further. Therefore they found no evidence and it was simply a matter of LE looking in the wrong place, or overlooking something they shouldn’t have. If the perp had not confessed 33 years later, would we be saying the government or the mafia must have taken him? Aliens? No, LE just could not FIND the evidence, they never did. It so lucky this man (as far as we know anyway), never abducted another child.
I truly believe that’s what has gone on in Kyron’s case as well. LE zeroed in on Terri Horman (perhaps for justifiable reasons even), but in doing so they’ve overlooked some other evidence that pointed to someone else. We all know kids don’t just vanish into thin air, especially from a school full of people. I think it is quite possible that LE has even questioned the person who took Kyron out of that school that day, but doesn’t even know it, just like in Etan’s case. I hope it doesn’t take 33 years to find out. JMO
***********
Blink, what would the FBI do, IYO, that you feel has not or is not been done already…..or is that addressed in Part II?
Start all over.
B
@Lyla. He was taken from school premises, therefore
his transportation was imo irrelevant to abduction.
Well. This makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn’t they be working on this? It’s a missing child, maybe kidnapped, for pete’s sake. Why aren’t the parents making a big stink about that – unles they have “personal” reasons not to. Or local LE??
*******************************************
Because they are not aware, they are believing only the TH way, because they have been told NOTHING differently.
24. Rose says:
September 17, 2012 at 5:16 pm
So can MCSO request FBI take lead wothout approval by DA?
Can DA override?
Would be very hard for Staton to do after $ were pumped into his budget
in the first year. To say hey Council Council, got nothing to show for it.
******************************************
And what would the public think??
I’m thinking you understand my disgust now?
mas says:
September 17, 2012 at 5:57 pm
Jden says:
September 17, 2012 at 2:26 pm
There are only three entities that I know of that can “vanish” a person with “no shred of evidence” – the mafia, the military and the government. I am not convinced, no matter how cunning, that a lone SZ could pull this off, not get noticed, leave no trace or tracks and assure the erasure of pertinent school records.
This was probably not orchestrated by a backwoods perp, neighbor, teen, angry housewife or scorned ex-lover.
For whatever reason to take Kyron, this abduction was planned perfectly and timed impeccably. All area first responders were attending a memorial on the same morning as a “chaotic” SF.
Why did it take LE 45 mins to arrive post 911 call?
Shades of the Franklin scandal?
**********
Couldn’t agree more.
Respectfully and from a strictly forensic perspective- I am aware of none.
It may take years, it may take actually finding it, but there is no such thing as an evidence free crime.
B
**********
Shades of the Franklin Scandal equation
LE Ignorance + Arrogance + Corruption = Missing Children never to be found.
Real world evidence that doesn’t exist in the LE realm
Description of SZ – LE says none
Kyron seen after 9am – LE says Terri last person to see Kyron at 8:45am
etc. etc…….
contemplating on this case
Capt. Gates seems barely able to contain tears, audibly chockes a few times (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFf9_CPr74&feature=related)
What would cause such distress in a grown up man that is seasoned police officer especially in the absence of crime scene and horrible findings?
That had been my question for these two years along with the words by LE that once all done and clear (investigation), public will be surprised.
VLH says:
September 17, 2012 at 4:10 pm
Thanks for your input. I see what you mean and the only thing that comes readily to my old mind is that she was involved with people in the drug trade. In particular, the Mexican drug cartel that is well known for violence and for “disappearing” people. And perhaps her fear is not of self incrimination but fear for her daughter and son.
I honestly cannot think of any scenerio whereby little Kyron is alive and well today and that saddens me terribly.
It’s beyond me why the FBI is not involved in case. Why don’t the parents demand that the local LE invite them to investigate?
@Rose says:
September 17, 2012 at 5:13 pm
I understand what you’re saying, but I have a hard time understanding or buying the Perjury aspect as the reason she isn’t talking. Here is an example I found that explains my pov in much fewer words than I would
P.S. Familiar names below!
Snip~
It will be up to Multnomah County District Attorney Michael D. Schrunk to decide whether to pursue the perjury allegation. According to lawyers, courtroom proceedings rarely result in subsequent perjury charges, in part, because they are difficult to prove. Said John Henry Hingson III, a veteran Oregon City defense lawyer and former president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers: “As a practical matter, people are frequently nervous (in court) and say things that are not true without ever having the intention to deceive. [] Sometimes people are just mistaken.”
Snip ~
Link: http://www.thecrimereport.org/share-post/perjury-common-in-court-but-not-regularly-charged
Also, With Houze by her side, it doesn’t seem like a good enough reason to be silent this long.
@Venetia says:
September 17, 2012 at 5:45 pm
(snipped) “If Kyron was not with the Chaperone and his group, could
he have been one of the kids that Dave Stensen mentioned?”
————————————————————–
IIRC Dave Stensen said he did not see Kyron outside of the school looking at the flowers.
I wish some one would talk
Not just Terri but all these folks that were so into this case that have now went bye bye
I hope Desiree can shake a few out and put them under oath
Kyron is still missing
That gets me mad
And I think people need to speak up for him
Terri is not the only person who won’t talk
Just the one getting attention for it
My vent for today
I don’t think Blink said FBI is not involved or contributory.
We know they were.
She used the word “lead.”
imo that means not necessarily commiting more fbi
staff resources nor a change
in detective personnel, tho it could and imo should
It means taking direction of the investigation
and all decisions about the investigation.
Now can we imagine Underhill surrendering decisionmaking?
Or Staton surrendering direction?
Portland area seems fiercely independent when it comes to
Fed police leadership , even collaboration. Just look at all that Joint Task Force
homeland security thing — a big flap — Portland withdrew & Feds had to entire back. Just look at the DOJ/FBI
investigation of certain police practices just released.
Additionally, last FBI head in Portland, recently retired, involved in Kyron
case early, seemed ham fisted and a bumbler from press. New man seems of fine quality
from press.
But the atmosphere between local LE & Council and FBI/DOJ is so weak,
I don’t think he’s going to suggest taking over any investigation without being flatly
asked to with Council support.
Imo an FBI Lead would require bios pleading on TV for a good while, begging the city fathers
& local LE. Maybe Kaine will consider after divorce. Can’t see Desiree getting there.
She has a singular focus.
Correct, the difference between the FBI asissting and leading the investigation are monumental.
Additionally, MCSO or the DA could request the FBI review the case and provide it’s recommendations.
That said, I am aware of at least 2 FBI agents who shared they felt TH and one other individual for was responsible in the earliest of interviews. Whether that was a n interview tactic at the time or not I cannot say.
I am starting a new course in FBI -based interview protocol and I would suggest there is some merit to that.
Lyla, I had not read that Stensen stated that he did not see Kyron. Thanks for the info.
I wonder how good Stensens’ eyesight is? He didn’t see Kyron, or the truck and now I read that he said he was not at the school on June 4, 2010 – only in the soccer field.
Since he had to go into the school to get the key for the gate, and then return the key to the office when he was finished cutting the grass,
I wonder if he is doing some parsing (for lack of better forum words)?
IOW- it was the office – not the school in his mind?
Source:
http://tinyurl.com/9l5mban
Another question I have:
There was a Bernice Stensen on the list of 490 people at the SF.
I wonder if she is related to the groundskeeper? Veromi doesn’t connect them but Stensen is not a common name.
The only current source of the 490 that I can find:
http://tinyurl.com/8sa9cu4
Why doesn’t Kaine sue someone
Start turning over a few rocks or something
Besides car shows
If he thinks Kyron is alive
Terri Horman was the immediate suspect in a disappearance and an alleged murder for hire plot where there are gads of comments and facebook images of a happy family and very alive target- Kaine Horman.
http://blinkoncrime.com/2012/09/11/kyron-horman-disappearance-series-part-i-desiree-young-v-terri-horman-civil-as-an-oxymoron/#comments
What are we to make of the fact that KH is alive,
and the mfh *on him* at least, never took place?
As I recall, LE appealed for and was granted a huge budget for this case, millions, as well as ongoing over-time pay.
Is it possible that inside LE orchestrated (largest missing person search in OR history) this for monetary/budget reasons? In addition to the work, overtime pay and exposure Ky could have been sold on the pedo market or trafficking for additional monies. Could “sexually motivated” have been the end and not the means?
Was MCSO in trouble with finances pre 6/4/10?
Let’s see…
5/10/12 – Sam Adams met with Staton to cut 20 ID fingerprint technicians, yet allocated $7.5m for area schools. Staton was not pleased.
12 percent SO budget cut in 2009 after 10 years of declining SO funding and SO pay freezes. $300,000 change in uniform cost incurred.
Citizen Budget Advisory Committee, MCSO report to County Commissioners.
Staton kept stating that they have no reason to believe Kyron is not alive = public emotion, more funds, dive searches., over-time, war room.
Why is LE is holding on to this case so tightly, not releasing details, no SZ description, removing online posts and stories, sending cryptic messages to the public ie, flyers with TH and DDS, time last seen and with whom, parking lot photos from TMH route. Very different method than other missing child cases.
Wasn’t there a canine scent pick-up by the RR tracks which I believe leads to JK street? Was that searched?
Blink, I know you are correct regarding forensics and that there is no evidence-free crime, however there are some organizations that can pull off a vanish nearly seamlessly. And who wouldn’t trust LE?
All area first responders at a memorial. Gps stolen same town. 45 mins for MCSO to arrive to 911 call. Mayor tweets asking who can identify mystery man that bears uncanny resemblance to ex-LE pilot.
The Horman truck was taken in twice and searched. What did they find? Anything? Nothing? Everything is a secret!
Did LE deny permission to Texas Equisearch to aid in the search of certain areas? The Horman property?
What if TMH attorneys are thinking, this is big guns… dangerous… and advising her to stay quiet to protect her own life and her daughter’s. Civil atty comes out of retirement, are you just kidding me? It’s not like TMH is celeb, wealthy, etc. What’s at stake here?
Staton: “We have a knowledge of things we dont want to know about… of things we wish we didn’t know.” (9/17/10)
Hmm
@Jden, Your comment of mafia, military or government brought to mind the sequel to this article.
Part II: Sovereignty Is A Myth: Revelations About The Morning Kyron Disappeared
I would include schools under the umbrella of government. It is very difficult to hold a government institution accountable to the public, and even harder to hold them accoutable to an individual. The government itself might not disappear a child, but the government would IMO go to great lengths to conceal a crime perpetrated on their watch, in the interests of public confidence, and greater good, yadda yadda, and then I am sure they would insert a statistic of how safe schools really are. Millions of kids go to school each day, the fact that one was lost in rural Oregon is statistically negligible. (Unless of course, it is your kid.)
Who’s Legally Responsible for Kids’ Safety at School?
snip>
So, it remains unclear who, if anyone, can be held responsible for what happens to our children while they are in the hands of the state.
http://nwahomepage.com/fulltext-news/?nxd_id=300872
I just wonder, in that the SO budget has been declining for 10 years… if, say a child was abducted from a school in broad daylight… might that make public citizens a bit more alarmed about the safety of their community and possibly put pressure on elected officials to increase the future of SO budget?
What does Bruce McCain, ex-SO official have to say about the handling of the SAR for Kyron?
http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-25716-ex_sheriffs_office_official_blasts_his_former_empl.html
9/28/10 – Staton announces a “business plan” for the SAR of Kyron. Very important because it involves a “school and a child”. Task force concept. Specific resources. Not as broad. Staton uses very evasive terminology for all updates in this interview. “Investigation is moving in a very successful fashion and it is moving in a direction that I would expect”. Huh?
http://videos.oregonlive.com/oregonian/2010/09/highlights_of_news_conference.html
Blink says:
September 17, 2012 at 4:08 pm
(snip)
“I can honestly say, that might be the one thing that would keep me from my baby. If being with me might have them meet the same end as Kyron. Or worse, if I thought it entirely probable.”
B
Blink, as a truly selfless mother who would sacrifice all to keep her child safe:
Would you abate (or drag on) a divorce with child custody issues for 2 years and counting?
Would you insist on the division of marital a$$ets?
To my knowledge TH lawyers offered to stipulate to the marriage dissolution ( that is to say they are legally divorced but the distribution was pending).
I honestly don’t have an answer for you wpg because if I could not see my child I don’t think I would care much about the rest and I would want her to be comfortable in the only home she has ever known.
B
Consumer Sovereignty
The term “Prisoner’s Dilemma” refers to an analogy in which two prisoners are planning an escape. If they cooperate, both will escape, but if one betrays the other, then the betrayer will get a reward and the betrayed will get a special punishment. If each betrays the other, both go back to jail. Each prisoner has to make the decision privately on whether or not to betray his partner. For each prisoner, the most rational thing to do is betray the other, even though both would benefit most if both stayed quiet; hence the dilemma.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/taylormcgreal/consumersovereignty.html